Give Doms and Trollers pets at a lower level, say 12 or so

[dangeraaron10]

I wouldn't really be strictly opposed to it but the pets themselves range from okay to clown show.  Umbra Beast might be a tuff pupper but I'd rather take anything else other than, say, Gremlins which range anywhere from useless to an active detriment.  

 

Edit:  Put more succinctly, I don't think the majority of the pets will be the help you think they'd be at low levels.

Edited June 28, 2022 by dangeraaron10

[battlewraith]

10 hours ago, biostem said:

I've never had any issues with any of my controllers feeling weak or underpowered;  Set up containment, then profit.  It's really that simple.  Perhaps you are just not a good fit for the AT, or perhaps you are expecting something out of them that isn't to be had.  If, as you say, this whole topic is merely a matter of subjective opinion, then it is incumbent upon you to also acknowledge that, and that the counter-perspectives are just as valid...

 

This is not about being valid. This is not a forum for logical debate. As Sovera pointed out, the devs are going to do whatever they want. Making a suggestion here is appealing to them.

Unfortunately, doing so means running the gauntlet of a handful of players who take their self appointed duty to be rooting out bad ideas. Bad typically meaning things they don't like because it doesn't fit with their subjective experience of the game. I think this results in three things: 1. People are discouraged from posting suggestions. 2. People are turned off by the community. 3. To the extent that suggestions matter at all, the game design is steared towards a samey-same paint by the numbers orthodoxy.

[kelika2]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Read your thread. The reason why people are upset over this proposal is specifically identified in the thread.

if it was in one of your long drawn out posts im still not going to do it.  i asked nicely to condense, or maybe summarize.  hell even with the other half of this post i just read the first few lines.  even with my short original post people still think i want their current level 12 power at 32 for some reason

 

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

My worst damage 'trollers have probably been Earth/FF and Ice/Emp.

 

Having Jack or Lumpy at 12 or 18 wouldn't have helped them at all. Why?

Probably because those sets dont synergize well.  my earth/thermal is great because the stone pet hits hard and can take a hit, and that was before thermal buffs.  and with jack frost, hes just ok.  -rech and -spd is super easy to cap out.  arctic air + jack's embrace is already overkill unless something resists it like a werewolf.  dont roll ice/cold btw

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Probably because those sets dont synergize well.

 

Very much not the point. You need to read your responses, not just the first line or two.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

if it was in one of your long drawn out posts im still not going to do it.  i asked nicely to condense, or maybe summarize.  hell even with the other half of this post i just read the first few lines.  even with my short original post people still think i want their current level 12 power at 32 for some reason

Then expect to forever be at a loss at what anyone is talking about. Some points cannot be condensed or they lose all relevance. Either take the time to read what people are saying, or stop expecting them to provide you any useful information.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

This is not about being valid. This is not a forum for logical debate. As Sovera pointed out, the devs are going to do whatever they want. Making a suggestion here is appealing to them.

Unfortunately, doing so means running the gauntlet of a handful of players who take their self appointed duty to be rooting out bad ideas. Bad typically meaning things they don't like because it doesn't fit with their subjective experience of the game. I think this results in three things: 1. People are discouraged from posting suggestions. 2. People are turned off by the community. 3. To the extent that suggestions matter at all, the game design is steared towards a samey-same paint by the numbers orthodoxy.

So is this a forum for illogical debate? A forum for imaginary debate? You are not making any sense. The whole point of a suggestions forum is specifically to have these debates. Otherwise the suggestion forum would not be a forum, it would be a DM straight to the devs.

[kelika2]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Very much not the point. You need to read your responses, not just the first line or two.

The earth pet is pretty strong, force fields just do not synergize with it at all.  For a soloing dom or troller having that little magmabro pounding away enemies while forged and fire shielded will be a plus.  and in groups it is better than having a 4 minute cooldown hold which wont get used often or very long when a fire blaster decides to /delete a spawn in seconds.

But if your point is having a weak/unpopular/antiquated secondary (whichever description is the least derailing) then may I dismiss it?

I just want more damage to controllers and dominators at lower levels.

[kelika2]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So is this a forum for illogical debate? A forum for imaginary debate? You are not making any sense. The whole point of a suggestions forum is specifically to have these debates. Otherwise the suggestion forum would not be a forum, it would be a DM straight to the devs.

This is a suggestions and feedback forum

I am going to assume that the suggestions are for the devs

And the feedback for the devs when a patch hits

 

I do not know where you are getting debate from.  After 3 years I still do not get how or why people need to assert themselves as judge, jury and devcutioner here.

[Rudra]

Probably because this is a forum and not a private message system to the devs. When the devs or GMs come in and say "Please stop arguing over the suggestions, this is just for players to post an initial thought without any sort of feedback process for us to see and understand how the community might take the proposed change", then I can agree with the assertion that people on a forum are not actually supposed to be discussing what is said on the forum.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

So is this a forum for illogical debate? A forum for imaginary debate? You are not making any sense. The whole point of a suggestions forum is specifically to have these debates. Otherwise the suggestion forum would not be a forum, it would be a DM straight to the devs.

 

The point of a suggestion forum is for ideation. It's for people to share their ideas and desires for future development. The notion that this a place to come and debate peoples suggestions is idiotic. You're not a dev, you don't have insider knowledge of what they can or plan to do, so what are you debating exactly? Typically it's people gatekeeping based on their own biases or understanding of the game.  And it's generally the same small group of people all the time. It wrecks the suggestion forum as a pathway for community engagement in exchange for a few individuals getting the ego gratification of LARPing as a dev.

[arcane]

Imagine calling others gatekeepers while literally being the only ones vocally opposed to an open discussion of their ideas. Cmon guys not this again. If you’re truly anti-disagreement, you can refrain from replying, but constantly telling people to agree or shut up is a ridiculous look.

Edited June 28, 2022 by arcane

[arcane]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

After 3 years I still do not get how or why people need to assert themselves as judge, jury and devcutioner here.

Probably because this is an open forum and that’s how life works in such places. I suggest rethinking the extreme fragility with which you approach this subforum as human behavior isn’t going to change to accommodate you any time soon.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Probably because this is a forum and not a private message system to the devs. When the devs or GMs come in and say "Please stop arguing over the suggestions, this is just for players to post an initial thought without any sort of feedback process for us to see and understand how the community might take the proposed change", then I can agree with the assertion that people on a forum are not actually supposed to be discussing what is said on the forum.

They should logically just lock every thread in this subforum were that actually the intention of the subforum. Ofc it’s not and people are just trying to silence disagreement but speaking hypothetically here.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Imagine calling others gatekeepers while literally being the only ones vocally opposed to an open discussion of their ideas. Cmon guys not this again. If you’re truly anti-disagreement, you can refrain from replying, but constantly telling people to agree or shut up is a ridiculous look.

 

LOL right, of course don't entertain the actual criticism at all, just assume that it's fragile people trying to suppress your ability to discuss (ie crap on ideas you don't like). 

I do think you accidentally described the problem. People are anti-disagreement--meaning they see how these threads are received and think it's not worth trying to post a suggestion on these forums because of the shitbirds--and they refrain from replying--they abandon the suggestion thread and don't post here again. Or they don't even bother to begin with.

 

[arcane]

52 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

LOL right, of course don't entertain the actual criticism at all, just assume that it's fragile people trying to suppress your ability to discuss (ie crap on ideas you don't like). 

I do think you accidentally described the problem. People are anti-disagreement--meaning they see how these threads are received and think it's not worth trying to post a suggestion on these forums because of the shitbirds--and they refrain from replying--they abandon the suggestion thread and don't post here again. Or they don't even bother to begin with.

 

The “criticism” I am not addressing does not deserve to be addressed imo because it literally reads “agree with me at every turn or stfu” (and then ironically calling *others* gatekeepers?? English pls). Bit of a non-starter. Engaging with such a thing is not fruitful.

 

If people are not posting out of fear of criticism, that’s called a them problem. People don’t owe you their perfect agreement.

Edited June 28, 2022 by arcane

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

The point of a suggestion forum is for ideation. It's for people to share their ideas and desires for future development. The notion that this a place to come and debate peoples suggestions is idiotic. You're not a dev, you don't have insider knowledge of what they can or plan to do, so what are you debating exactly? Typically it's people gatekeeping based on their own biases or understanding of the game.  And it's generally the same small group of people all the time. It wrecks the suggestion forum as a pathway for community engagement in exchange for a few individuals getting the ego gratification of LARPing as a dev.

Giving feedback on a proposed suggestion is not gatekeeping. If the suggestion has merit, it will withstand the scrutiny and possibly even improve. Have you ever been part of a suggestion or review team? How about an investigation team? A development team? Suggestions are proposed on a constant basis, and then hashed out. Ideas that don't hold up get discarded. Ideas that hold up but have problems get put on hold pending further possible development. Ideas that work well get hashed out into something that can be implemented and meets the needs of the team or client. You know, like a suggestions forum.

 

If others are afraid to post suggestions for some reason? There is nothing I can do for them other than say post anyway. At worst the idea will fail. At best it meets approval and may even get tweaked into something better.

 

Posting an idea on a forum and expecting everyone to immediately accept it or just keep quiet is a ridiculous ask. Why? Because it is a forum. And that is what forums are about.

 

No one is LARPing as a dev. No one is even claiming to be a dev. These suggestions will impact the entire player base. So expect people to respond based on how they perceive the change will affect them and their ability to enjoy the game. Hence, the suggestions are on a FORUM so the player base can see the suggestions and comment on how they think it will affect them either positively or negatively. The game is not centered on you. So you may think an idea is the best thing to ever happen. That does not mean others will too. And since it will impact them, they are very much entitled to a say on the matter. Hence, positive or negative feedback occurs.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Giving feedback on a proposed suggestion is not gatekeeping. If the suggestion has merit, it will withstand the scrutiny and possibly even improve. Have you ever been part of a suggestion or review team? How about an investigation team? A development team? Suggestions are proposed on a constant basis, and then hashed out. Ideas that don't hold up get discarded. Ideas that hold up but have problems get put on hold pending further possible development. Ideas that work well get hashed out into something that can be implemented and meets the needs of the team or client. You know, like a suggestions forum.

 

No lol. Not like a suggestion forum. You were not hired to review proposals. There is no particular reason to view you as an authority to determine which ideas "hold up." And most importantly, there is no stipulation that an idea suggested has to meet your review specifications. That's an assumption that you are making. People that serve on different types of creative teams are selected for qualifications they bring to the table. Those qualifications and processes are going to vary if you're doing a sociological study vs. a theatrical production vs. an animated short. Making a blanket assumption for random posters on a video game suggestion forum strikes me as pretty daft.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

If others are afraid to post suggestions for some reason? There is nothing I can do for them other than say post anyway. At worst the idea will fail.

 

At worst they will waste a lot of time and experience a lot of aggravation trying to defend what they may have thought was a fun idea to the unofficial REVIEW TEAM, which is probably irrelevant to the actual success or failure of said idea.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Posting an idea on a forum and expecting everyone to immediately accept it or just keep quiet is a ridiculous ask. Why? Because it is a forum. And that is what forums are about.

 

It's not about expecting people to immediately accept ideas. It's a criticism of your review team mentality. It's fairly common in this forum to have people declare an idea a bad idea, justify that stance with a screed that is basically a declaration of their game preferences, and/or give some ridiculous lecture on some tangential subject like...oh I dunno...how you need to be rounding out your build with power pool attacks. I think people just get fed up with garbage feedback from opinionated crusty forum vets who are bent on the status quo. 

 

Even at the height of the game's population, the forum posters were a small percentage. Now with a much smaller number of people, I think it's probably more apparent that people like you are sucking the oxygen out of the room. And you would would clutch you pearls and complain about "what forums are about" until you were the only person left in the room. 

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

No lol. Not like a suggestion forum. You were not hired to review proposals. There is no particular reason to view you as an authority to determine which ideas "hold up." And most importantly, there is no stipulation that an idea suggested has to meet your review specifications. That's an assumption that you are making. People that serve on different types of creative teams are selected for qualifications they bring to the table. Those qualifications and processes are going to vary if you're doing a sociological study vs. a theatrical production vs. an animated short. Making a blanket assumption for random posters on a video game suggestion forum strikes me as pretty daft.

As one of many people that plays the game, that makes me as suited to evaluate a suggestion as anyone else. After all, the suggestion will affect my ability to enjoy the game. Who better to evaluate a change to the game than the people that play it? Because the players are making suggestions that will change the game for other players, there needs to be a way for the other players to say yes or no. Otherwise, there is no way to weigh how a suggestion will affect the community. The problem with the forums? Is the lack of people using it, not the people responding to the suggestions.

 

10 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

At worst they will waste a lot of time and experience a lot of aggravation trying to defend what they may have thought was a fun idea to the unofficial REVIEW TEAM, which is probably irrelevant to the actual success or failure of said idea.

See first response in this post.

 

11 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's not about expecting people to immediately accept ideas. It's a criticism of your review team mentality. It's fairly common in this forum to have people declare an idea a bad idea, justify that stance with a screed that is basically a declaration of their game preferences, and/or give some ridiculous lecture on some tangential subject like...oh I dunno...how you need to be rounding out your build with power pool attacks. I think people just get fed up with garbage feedback from opinionated crusty forum vets who are bent on the status quo. 

 

Even at the height of the game's population, the forum posters were a small percentage. Now with a much smaller number of people, I think it's probably more apparent that people like you are sucking the oxygen out of the room. And you would would clutch you pearls and complain about "what forums are about" until you were the only person left in the room. 

Everyone is free to criticize or support any suggestion made on this forum. After all, the suggestion will affect their ability to enjoy the game. So again, see the first response in this post.

 

You want more people to support your ideas? Or the OP's idea? Or anyone else's idea? Get more people involved in the forums. (Though I have to warn you that will not guarantee more people liking some ideas. Just more responses one way or another.) Until then? You're stuck with people like me 'sucking the oxygen out of the room' to keep being able to play the game in a way I enjoy as opposed to the way you would prefer. You don't want people like me saying I disagree with the idea? Then post an idea that does not impose your play style and preferences on my ability to have fun. And before you claim I am imposing my play style and preferences on others? I will point out that playing the game as it currently is does not count as an imposition on others' ability to play and enjoy. It is making use of what is already there and enjoying it. As opposed to implementing a change that alters how the game is played. Especially if feedback were not allowed as you would prefer.

 

You have as much right to enjoy the game as I do, and I have as much right to enjoy the game as you do. And that is the purpose of feedback in the suggestion forum. To look at the suggestions and make sure players other than just the poster will still enjoy the game.

[Ignatz the Insane]

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

No lol. Not like a suggestion forum.

 

It's a public subforum called Suggestions & Feedback.  I'm assuming that means feedback from the player base, but I've been wrong before.  

 

As for my own feedback:  While I agree that controllers could use some help with early to mid-level solo play (IMHO), I'm not sure this is the answer (for me).   I disagree that AoE holds are useless on low level teams.  Yes, the duration isn't an issue, but the mitigation it provides can be valuable.  I wouldn't like this change.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Who better to evaluate a change to the game than the people that play it? Because the players are making suggestions that will change the game for other players, there needs to be a way for the other players to say yes or no. Otherwise, there is no way to weigh how a suggestion will affect the community. The problem with the forums? Is the lack of people using it, not the people responding to the suggestions.

 

If there are only a handful of people consistently responding in the suggestions forum, that's a problem. It undermines the idea that the forum serves any point other than giving those individuals a platform with which to shoot down ideas they don't like. And it isn't necessary to weigh how a change will affect the community unless you think the devs are utterly incompetent.

 

So why aren't there more people posting suggestions? Well, the indication is that people pop in to make a suggestion, not get into a dissertation defense with the likes of you. 

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Then post an idea that does not impose your play style and preferences on my ability to have fun. And before you claim I am imposing my play style and preferences on others? I will point out that playing the game as it currently is does not count as an imposition on others' ability to play and enjoy. It is making use of what is already there and enjoying it. As opposed to implementing a change that alters how the game is played.

 

You signal a meek, cookie cutter approach to development that will gradually choke the game. And you discourage players from posting in the suggestion section.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

It's a public subforum called Suggestions & Feedback.  I'm assuming that means feedback from the player base, but I've been wrong before.  

 

The statement you quoted was a response to something he said. It doesn't make sense taken out of context. He stated that a formal review team was like this subforum. It isn't.

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

If there are only a handful of people consistently responding in the suggestions forum, that's a problem. It undermines the idea that the forum serves any point other than giving those individuals a platform with which to shoot down ideas they don't like. And it isn't necessary to weigh how a change will affect the community unless you think the devs are utterly incompetent.

 

So why aren't there more people posting suggestions? Well, the indication is that people pop in to make a suggestion, not get into a dissertation defense with the likes of you. 

 

 

You signal a meek, cookie cutter approach to development that will gradually choke the game. And you discourage players from posting in the suggestion section.

Fine. Here:

Read up. Player feedback is actually encouraged. Your claims that player feedback is not supposed to happen is dead. Discussion over.

 

Edit: Also, finding a GM statement shutting down your claim was so hard, that I had to look as far as the 4th permanent thread on the Suggestions and Feedback board with the nice big title saying "Concerning this forum". The very first page of the Suggestions and Feedback forum with only a single page to it. And only a single post on that page. Do you have a valid argument you would like to give or are we done now?

Edited June 29, 2022 by Rudra

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Fine. Here:

Read up. Player feedback is actually encouraged. Your claims that player feedback is not supposed to happen is dead. Discussion over.

 

Edit: Also, finding a GM statement shutting down your claim was so hard, that I had to look as far as the 4th permanent thread on the Suggestions and Feedback board with the nice big title saying "Concerning this forum". The very first page of the Suggestions and Feedback forum with only a single page to it. And only a single post on that page. Do you have a valid argument you would like to give or are we done now?

 

Good lord. Where did I say that player feedback is not supposed to happen? The claim is that your self serving desire to debate the crap out of people posting suggestions drives people away. That has nothing to do with what the devs want or intend for the subforum.

[Rudra]

14 hours ago, battlewraith said:

This is not about being valid. This is not a forum for logical debate.

 

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The point of a suggestion forum is for ideation. It's for people to share their ideas and desires for future development. The notion that this a place to come and debate peoples suggestions is idiotic.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

At worst they will waste a lot of time and experience a lot of aggravation trying to defend what they may have thought was a fun idea to the unofficial REVIEW TEAM, which is probably irrelevant to the actual success or failure of said idea.

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

If there are only a handful of people consistently responding in the suggestions forum, that's a problem. It undermines the idea that the forum serves any point other than giving those individuals a platform with which to shoot down ideas they don't like. And it isn't necessary to weigh how a change will affect the community unless you think the devs are utterly incompetent.

 

So why aren't there more people posting suggestions? Well, the indication is that people pop in to make a suggestion, not get into a dissertation defense with the likes of you. 

We're done. You're obviously trolling the forums.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Rudra

[SwitchFade]

No thank you.