issue 27 Focused Feedback: Ice Control Changes

[oedipus_tex]

Still enjoying and playing the set. Have found a couple of small bugs in the past few days.

 

• Shivers (Dominator version): Base Recharge is set to 30, probably should be 40 (per patch notes and Controller version).
• Arctic Air (Dominator version): This power appear to still detoggle when the caster is mezzed, versus using the newer toggle logic. I haven't been able to test the Controller version yet.

[Booper]

36 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Still enjoying and playing the set. Have found a couple of small bugs in the past few days.

 

• Shivers (Dominator version): Base Recharge is set to 30, probably should be 40 (per patch notes and Controller version).
• Arctic Air (Dominator version): This power appear to still detoggle when the caster is mezzed, versus using the newer toggle logic. I haven't been able to test the Controller version yet.

Thank you, this has been fixed internally but may not come in the next patch.

[WindDemon21]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:07 AM, Booper said:

Thank you, this has been fixed internally but may not come in the next patch.

While at it though, again especially for how melee-centric the set is in general with AA, it would make a lot more sense to have shivers just be a ranged aoe with a wide area that you can use in melee too. That has always been an odd part of the self-set synergy.

[Burk]

Cold Snap:

• "Shiver" has been renamed to "Cold Snap".
• This power has its cooldown increased from 30s to 40s.
  • Fixed a bug where Controller and Dominator had inconsistent cooldowns and endurance costs. Both should now have a 40s cast time and 10.4 endurance cost.

 

This has a typo in the latest patch notes. I doubt it has a 40s cast time...

[stryve]

Ported my existing Ice/Cold Controller over to Beta to try out the changes, and was quite pleased with the results.  Definitely felt a lot less grindy to solo radio missions (only +1x8, but still) with no changes to my build.

 

Cold Snap (Shiver) is pretty good for initial mitigation, the Fear allowing me to fire it off on approach then jump right in a mob and fire off Glacier, or Flash Freeze if Glacier is on cooldown.  Once I jumped in, I was seeing a fair bit more Confusion from Arctic Air which helps with survivability.  The damage from Ice Slick was really nice, too.  It's not a huge amount but it adds up, especially if you have enough recharge to keep it on a group more or less permanently.

 

There were some concerns over targeting Cold Snap's secondary Fear cone earlier in this thread, which I'm of two minds on.  On the one hand it's not too difficult to manage; as long as you don't fire it off at point blank range and have it more or less centered on a group, you'll probably hit the whole group with both.  On the other hand it's a 60' cone in a set that pretty heavily incentives being in melee, which does make it a bit awkward.

Edited July 21, 2022 by stryve

[Toxurion]

On live I played an ice cubed Dom as my main before shutdown. It was the first 50 I made when I came back on HC. Any new changes to Ice/, /Ice or //Ice have always been exciting for me.

 

Ice Slick: The lower cast time is an awesome change! The damage may not be much but more options for IO sets is always a plus when building
Cold Snap: N/A Don't use/enjoy cones, and its not really needed for my build (Ice/ice/ice already has so much)
Arctic Air: Domination integration is a welcome addition!

 

Happy to see these changes thank you : ) 

 

My personal wishes: 

Flash Freeze and Jack Frost being more relevant for Doms. I think this issue can probably be felt on most dom control sets, keeping them the same as the controller counterparts makes it a hard balance and I do not actually expect any changes. Increase Doms hp cap by about 250, Hoarfrost (slotted) only gives about 50% of its bonus because of it.

[...]

Anyone know how cold snap would interact with fear procs?

 

Specifically if a fear dmg proc was slotted in cold snap, and a mob got hit by the slow portion but NOT the fear portion, would the fear proc have a chance to go off?

 

Honestly the two size cones seems like a pain in the ass mechanically and super confusing as a player. 

 

I'll echo the suggestion to make it a TAoE. I don't think there are too many TAoE fears (any?). This would make for a unique power that can be used in melee.

 

Edit: if you do make it TAoE, maybe call it Avalanche. Few things are as scary as an avalanche

Edited July 24, 2022 by ...

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, ... said:

Anyone know how cold snap would interact with fear procs?

I've not tested but the way similar powers have been set up in the past is to have the two parts operating as separate powers with respect to procs. Therefore slow procs will only fire from the slow cone and fear procs will only fire from the fear cone.

[ScarySai]

A change I'd like to see: Let ice patch take slows/slow sets.

 

It's weird that the second most important power in your kit besides arctic air can't be enhanced to do it's thing, but the cheap knockoff versions the melee sets get can.

Edited July 24, 2022 by ScarySai

[TygerDarkstorm]

I am not a heavy/frequent user of Ice Control, but I wanted to play with it on beta given the changes and overall, I'm impressed. 

 

Arctic Air being able to dominate is just awesome, and jumping in a spawn and seeing all the confuses go off is a great feeling to have on a power that was almost considered skippable.

 

I definitely agree with the others about the cone arc on Cold Snap; while it does function as an alpha breaker, the fear seems like it should be wider, especially since Ice really wants to be up in melee. Also agree that it seems odd that Ice Slick can't take slow or KB/KD enhancements.

 

On doms, this set pairs nicely with the new Sonic Assault set.

[Bionic_Flea]

Pardon me for not reading whole thread, but I wanted to report that Ice Slick does not do containment damage on controllers, and it should.  The damage is almost negligible so you'd only be adding occasional extra negligible damage.

 

A little birdie just pointed out to me that pseudopets don't get containment.  Well, then I think the damage should be doubled, at least on controllers. Dominators have a whole damage secondary they can lean on.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[bigfashizzel]

Hi all,

 

Two pieces of feedback:

1. Would love to see the terrorize cone at full width (as others have mentioned).

2. I'd love to see Flash Freeze take slow sets.  I think it would add a lot to the power to give it a bit of -rech or -movement and the ability to slot slow sets.

Edited July 31, 2022 by bigfashizzel

[Bionic_Flea]

I've been leveling an ice/cold controller slowly on Brainstorm and I'm finding it pretty painful. 

 

I could see doing better with Storm or TA but that's a testament to those secondaries, not to Ice Control.  I don't think I have enough control, or enough damage.  I could make it more damaging by adding a bunch of damage procs, but again, that would be the procs, not the set.  I think Cold Snap should have a wider fear cone and do some up front damage, not more DoTs.  I appreciate the slight added damage on Ice Slick but it's too little to make much of a difference and doesn't do any containment damage.  It could use a doubling or more. 

 

And even with those changes, I think it would still be bottom tier, just less so.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I've been leveling an ice/cold controller slowly on Brainstorm and I'm finding it pretty painful. 

 

I could see doing better with Storm or TA but that's a testament to those secondaries, not to Ice Control.  I don't think I have enough control, or enough damage.  I could make it more damaging by adding a bunch of damage procs, but again, that would be the procs, not the set.  I think Cold Snap should have a wider fear cone and do some up front damage, not more DoTs.  I appreciate the slight added damage on Ice Slick but it's too little to make much of a difference and doesn't do any containment damage.  It could use a doubling or more. 

 

And even with those changes, I think it would still be bottom tier, just less so.

Yeah, I didn't test out a controller on Brainstorm, but the changes definitely seem to feel better for Ice Control on a dominator. Shame Ice trollers don't get that more smooth satisfying feeling that dom's do. Though I agree the fear in Cold Snap needs to be a wider cone, I find it incredibly odd that it's a smaller cone than the rest of the secondary effects in the power, especially for a set that is already kind of lacking in control power.

[Peacemoon]

Just now, TygerDarkstorm said:

Yeah, I didn't test out a controller on Brainstorm, but the changes definitely seem to feel better for Ice Control on a dominator. Shame Ice trollers don't get that more smooth satisfying feeling that dom's do. Though I agree the fear in Cold Snap needs to be a wider cone, I find it incredibly odd that it's a smaller cone than the rest of the secondary effects in the power, especially for a set that is already kind of lacking in control power.

Multiple people had fed this back but no idea what the devs reasoning is for keeping the cone widths like it is. It is going to cause a lot of confusion (to the players, not the mobs!)

[WindDemon21]

7 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Yeah, I didn't test out a controller on Brainstorm, but the changes definitely seem to feel better for Ice Control on a dominator. Shame Ice trollers don't get that more smooth satisfying feeling that dom's do. Though I agree the fear in Cold Snap needs to be a wider cone, I find it incredibly odd that it's a smaller cone than the rest of the secondary effects in the power, especially for a set that is already kind of lacking in control power.

MAKE. IT. A. LARGE. TAOE! SO. WE. CAN. USE. IT. IN. MELEE. TOO!

[Captain Powerhouse]

7 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Multiple people had fed this back but no idea what the devs reasoning is for keeping the cone widths like it is. It is going to cause a lot of confusion (to the players, not the mobs!)

 

The initial internal test was done that way, and it was dimmed to be too good. The adjustment was meant to make the fear in Cold Snap to be equivalent in usability to Dark Control's Fearsome Stare without nerfing the current debuff area, therefore the dual area setup.  The set might still get further updates in the future, but its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

[TygerDarkstorm]

34 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

The initial internal test was done that way, and it was dimmed to be too good. The adjustment was meant to make the fear in Cold Snap to be equivalent in usability to Dark Control's Fearsome Stare without nerfing the current debuff area, therefore the dual area setup.  The set might still get further updates in the future, but its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

I admittedly not a deep dive, numbers person, but I'm curious how it was determined to be too good? Ice Control largely wants to play in melee if you take and use Arctic Air; as it is currently, Cold Snap's fear is nigh unusable in melee, and is probably the single most repeated criticism of the set's changes in the open beta currently. There's a lot of people in game who don't even know about the new patch coming, let alone stuff in beta (I've chatted with a few), and I can definitely see this difference in cone widths ending up being confusing once the changes go live, especially for players that don't do deep dives into this sort of stuff and for the smattering of new/newly returned players that have been popping up.

[Draeth Darkstar]

I would personally still gladly take a nerf to the debuff for a wider arc on the Fear, more like Terrify.

 

I still also wish the set got more damage. The current additions don't change the fact that the set probably has the lowest damage output in the game, except maybe Mind Control, which is its own weird barrel of fish, and it doesn't make up for that low damage with the excellent hard control that Earth has.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Draeth Darkstar

[stryve]

Did some further tests with my Ice/Cold/Ice Controller on both Live and Beta.  Well, I say tests but it was really just running PI Radio Missions.  in any case, I saw a definite increase in ability on Beta.  For instance, on Beta I could handle +2/*8 Malta without much trouble, while on Live I had to be careful against +2/*8 Council.  Additionally, I was able to manage a +2/*8 bank Mission on Beta, but failed +1/*8 on Live.  Admittedly, Bank Missions have a pretty wide range of difficulty depending on who you end up facing.

 

Arctic Air:  I have Contagious Confusion slotted in Arctic Air so standing in a group usually results in most of that group being confused even on Live, but it happens noticeably faster on Beta.  That helps with both damage mitigation and output, since the enemy are mostly shooting at each other instead of you when they aren't locked down.

 

Shiver/Cold Snap:  I found Cold Snap to be useful as an opener when engaging a group, since the Fear mostly prevents them from shooting or moving as I closed.  My other option is Flash Freeze, but I always have trouble choosing a sufficiently central target to hit a whole group.  Despite the Fear cone only being 45%, I still found it easier to get a whole group in the first shot.  I do agree that the narrow cone makes it largely ineffective once you are up in a group to use Arctic Air and Glacier, though.  I rarely used it except when closing, which is still more than I tend to use Shiver on Live.

 

Ice Slick:  Usage wise not much changed.  Still the best damage mitigation power in the set, which you want to get as close to perma as possible so most enemies are too busy flailing on the ground to shoot at you.  Except now it also does more damage than any other power in the set (not counting Jack Frost), and I only have it two-slot for Recharge.  Still odd that it doesn't allow Slow Enhancements/Sets, and unfortunate that Pseudo Pet mechanics prevent Containment damage.

 

 

To be clear, this is on a level 50 toon with full Incarnates, IOs, etc.  Not a lot of damage procs, so Ice Control still lacks damage, though Ice Mastery makes up for that a fair bit, and Jack Frost actually hits pretty hard.  Getting up to 50 was a while ago, but it was pretty painful, and I'm not surprised that Ice/Cold remains so even with the proposed changes.

 

 

[Peacemoon]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

Doesn’t seem much point in us feeding back about it then? 

[Bionic_Flea]

"Unlikely" and "not change much" is not, NO NEVER!

 

 

[Blackfeather]

13 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The initial internal test was done that way, and it was dimmed to be too good. The adjustment was meant to make the fear in Cold Snap to be equivalent in usability to Dark Control's Fearsome Stare without nerfing the current debuff area, therefore the dual area setup.  The set might still get further updates in the future, but its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

 

To be fair, Fearsome Stare also has a range of 70, compared to Cold Snap's 60. Perhaps a better point of comparison might be Mind Control's Terrify, which has the same range, but a Fear arc of 90 degrees instead of 45?

[Bionic_Flea]

Can we get rid of the combat spam that says Arctic Air  is scaring things?  It takes up a lot of space in the chat channel.  I got:

 

[03:13] You Scare Infiltrator with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Vigilant with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Voltaic Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Cryo Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Voltaic Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Vigilant with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Confuse Crey Juggernaut with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Juggernaut with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Paragon Protector Elite with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Crisis Unit with your Arctic Air.

 

Several times in one minute.

 

 

[Carnifax]

16 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Can we get rid of the combat spam that says Arctic Air  is scaring things?  It takes up a lot of space in the chat channel.  I got:

 

[03:13] You Scare Infiltrator with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Vigilant with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Voltaic Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Cryo Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Voltaic Tank with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Vigilant with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Confuse Crey Juggernaut with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Juggernaut with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Paragon Protector Elite with your Arctic Air.
[03:13] You Scare Crey Crisis Unit with your Arctic Air.

 

Several times in one minute.

 

 

But then how would I be able to parse out that Arctic Air confused things 196 times.

 

 

(You think that's bad, check out Burn or Freezing Rain in the logs .... )