issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toxic/Psionic Mitigation Changes

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

Maybe split it across the defensive toggles since those will be seeing a lot more use with suppression.

 

I think design wise it has to be in Eclipse. It can't be earlier than 20. For PBs it's in Light Form, with the balance point being that LF has no Psi resist and Eclipse does. I'm suggesting just balancing them by making them the same in those aspects.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Wavicle

[Generator]

8 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Has anyone been testing Electric Armor's performance in the beta with the attack typing changes?  If not, probably a good idea to do that.  If people find that it's being crushed, then that might constitute cause for closing it's Toxic hole also.

 

 

I haven't, but certainly could.  What would constitute a good testing ground?  I was thinking DA missions against the BP; they have all kinds of oddball attacks, don't they?

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Generator said:

I haven't, but certainly could.  What would constitute a good testing ground?  I was thinking DA missions against the BP; they have all kinds of oddball attacks, don't they?

If you want to test toxic, Arachnos has more toxic attacks if you get spiders, then BP.

 

Plus, the Toxic Tarantulas bosses got a buff to their toxic attacks due the attack type changes.

[Generator]

13 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

If you want to test toxic, Arachnos has more toxic attacks if you get spiders, then BP.

 

Plus, the Toxic Tarantulas bosses got a buff to their toxic attacks due the attack type changes.

Fair nuff.  Easy enough to get them (at least in non-Incarnate strength).  Thanks!

[Yomo Kimyata]

It seems to me that the purpose of this change is:  we have changed the way how damage is applied, more esoteric damage will be more important, let's rebalance by only adding esoteric defense and resistance to legacy sets that were designed with specific esoteric holes in previous times.

 

This is a slipshod process at best, and I hope that you have a lot, LOT more data than I think you have.  Good luck.

[UltraAlt]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:06 PM, The Curator said:

Armor Set Toxic/Psionic Mitigation Changes

 

Carnies and Vaz not getting enough love?

[Yomo Kimyata]

Would it be worthwhile to add more invention sets with these characteristics?  It's a lot of work but it would make building more modular.

[Wavicle]

Seems like SR, Nin, and Shield are getting a little left behind...before the benefit of Positional defense was that it protected against Psi and Toxic while the others didn't. Now the others do...

[Coyotedancer]

To see how /EA holds up, I can move my Psi/EA Stalker over to do some running around this afternoon. It's been a while since I went Arachnos-bashing with Ajda, but I don't recall the current live-server version of her having exceptional trouble with them. If the beta version does, that'll tell us at least a little something.   

 

I also have a DP/EA Sent I can try out, although Aken is already a little squishy against the spiders. XP

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Coyotedancer]

Okay, after running around a bit with Arachnos scanner missions on my two Energy Aura characters, the results are interesting.

 

The Psi/EA Stalker has some minor Toxic and Psi defense and resist from her powers and enhancements... 10.5 Psi and Toxic defense in Hide, 5.17 out of Hide, with 16.2 Toxic and 11.75 Psi resistance. She typically solos at +2/x4, so that's where I left her difficulty. I avoided using her Barrier or any inspirations.

 

On the live servers, she can handle Arachnos relatively easily at that difficulty level. I rarely had to use her heal. On the beta server, there was a noticeable difference in the amount of damage she took from the groups, particularly the ones with two Tarantula Mistresses. That got painful FAST. With the new aggro thing, two groups with several Forts each that spawned close together very nearly knocked her down. Fast recharge on her heal is all that saved her.

 

The DP/EA Sentinel I took in also has some defense and resistance, so he wasn't going in naked either, so to speak. He has 11.59 Toxic defense, 11.23 Psi defense, 16.84 Psi resistance and a fairly respectable 30,33 Toxic resistance. I also set him to +2/x4. The Live server version of Aken can handle that on Arachnos maps, but it can get a little dicey. He ends up relying a lot on his heals from EA and his Epic. I also avoided inspirations and his Barrier, like I did with Ajda.

 

Unlike his stalker cousin, I actually didn't notice a lot of difference between his Live run and what happened on Beta. I suspect that's because he keeps his distance, and so wasn't getting smacked routinely with Toxic melee attacks. All in all? The beta changes probably won't make as much of a difference to him as they will to Ajda. Unless I drop him into melee range with the goons. 

[Riverdusk]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:45 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Would it be worthwhile to add more invention sets with these characteristics?  It's a lot of work but it would make building more modular.

 

One easy change would be to give the impervium armor 6% psi resist and/or Aegis 5% psi resist IO's toxic resist as well in an equal amount.

[InvaderStych]

I haven't really tracked discussion on this one, but is Weave supposed to be granting Toxic Defense (noting that it now seems to grant Psi def) similar to Hover (also EvM) and Combat Jumping (not pictured).  Or is the omission on purpose?

 

[TheMoncrief]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:02 PM, Wavicle said:

Seems like SR, Nin, and Shield are getting a little left behind...before the benefit of Positional defense was that it protected against Psi and Toxic while the others didn't. Now the others do...

SR, Nin, and Shield are also being entirely unimpacted by the attack typing defense changes.

 

A defensive hole against Psi and/or Toxic is becoming more significant in Page 4, because Psi and Toxic typed attacks will no longer check other typed defenses - only Psi or Toxic defense and their positional component. This change would make typed defense sets much weaker than they were previously as they go from fairly significant practical defense against most Psi and Toxic typed attacks because of their S/L components, to absolutely none. Thus, typed defense sets are getting their holes somewhat patched up.

 

Essentially, instead of having capped defense against most Psi attacks because they mostly have S/L components and Invincibility and Tough Hide both offer S/L defense, Invulnerability will have (presumably) lower defense against those attacks because of the added Psi defense, but it will apply to all Psi attacks instead of only those that are purely Psi typed.

 

Is it properly balanced? No idea. But the intent should be pretty plain. And since SR, Nin, and Shield aren't touched by the nerf, they also aren't being touched by the compensating buffs.

[BrandX]

6 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

SR, Nin, and Shield are also being entirely unimpacted by the attack typing defense changes.

 

A defensive hole against Psi and/or Toxic is becoming more significant in Page 4, because Psi and Toxic typed attacks will no longer check other typed defenses - only Psi or Toxic defense and their positional component. This change would make typed defense sets much weaker than they were previously as they go from fairly significant practical defense against most Psi and Toxic typed attacks because of their S/L components, to absolutely none. Thus, typed defense sets are getting their holes somewhat patched up.

 

Essentially, instead of having capped defense against most Psi attacks because they mostly have S/L components and Invincibility and Tough Hide both offer S/L defense, Invulnerability will have (presumably) lower defense against those attacks because of the added Psi defense, but it will apply to all Psi attacks instead of only those that are purely Psi typed.

 

Is it properly balanced? No idea. But the intent should be pretty plain. And since SR, Nin, and Shield aren't touched by the nerf, they also aren't being touched by the compensating buffs.

 

That seems a bit off.  Looking at Spectral Wounds, Blind, all of Mental Control except Levitate (makes sense since it's a telekinetic attack), and all of Psychic Blast except Telekinetic Blast (which has a smashing and psychic component, but I always felt it should've just been smashing for damage, as it's a TK attack that's done mentally) are pure psychic attacks.

 

So, they didn't have defense against those psychic attacks.

 

Spines has always been mostly Lethal damage, so it should still be checking lethal over toxic.

 

Haven't checked the other Toxic attacks, but some I believe are just toxic damage.

[BZRKR]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

That seems a bit off.  Looking at Spectral Wounds, Blind, all of Mental Control except Levitate (makes sense since it's a telekinetic attack), and all of Psychic Blast except Telekinetic Blast (which has a smashing and psychic component, but I always felt it should've just been smashing for damage, as it's a TK attack that's done mentally) are pure psychic attacks.

 

So, they didn't have defense against those psychic attacks.

 

You're mostly correct here.

Be sure you're looking at the Cryptic server data on City of Data.  In the links below, look on the left hand side for "Attack types"

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=controller_control.illusion_control.spectral_wounds&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/powerset.html?pset=blaster_ranged.psychic_blast&at=blaster

Spectral Wounds and Psychic Blast have Ranged or Area attack types in addition to Psionic, so Shield and SR will defend against those.

 

And if you look at Blind and Mind Control

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=controller_control.illusion_control.blind&at=controller

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/powerset.html?pset=controller_control.mind_control&at=controller

You'll see that the only attack type is Psionic, and so Shield and SR won't do anything on their own, as you said.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

SR, Nin, and Shield are also being entirely unimpacted by the attack typing defense changes.

 

A defensive hole against Psi and/or Toxic is becoming more significant in Page 4, because Psi and Toxic typed attacks will no longer check other typed defenses - only Psi or Toxic defense and their positional component. This change would make typed defense sets much weaker than they were previously as they go from fairly significant practical defense against most Psi and Toxic typed attacks because of their S/L components, to absolutely none. Thus, typed defense sets are getting their holes somewhat patched up.

 

Essentially, instead of having capped defense against most Psi attacks because they mostly have S/L components and Invincibility and Tough Hide both offer S/L defense, Invulnerability will have (presumably) lower defense against those attacks because of the added Psi defense, but it will apply to all Psi attacks instead of only those that are purely Psi typed.

 

Is it properly balanced? No idea. But the intent should be pretty plain. And since SR, Nin, and Shield aren't touched by the nerf, they also aren't being touched by the compensating buffs.

 

Right, I understand the concept, but here's my concern:

Originally Super Reflexes was exceptional because it could defend against most Psi attacks. This was balanced by the fact that it had no heals or +HP or resistance. Well, now the sets that DO get heals and resistance ALSO get defense or res against Psi.

 

So it is precisely balance that concerns me here.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

Right, I understand the concept, but here's my concern:

Originally Super Reflexes was exceptional because it could defend against most Psi attacks. This was balanced by the fact that it had no heals or +HP or resistance. Well, now the sets that DO get heals and resistance ALSO get defense or res against Psi.

 

So it is precisely balance that concerns me here.

 

SR will only be weak to the psi attacks that don't have positional types.  Still, that's rare.  Also, the psi resist the sets are getting is so minor, it's not making that big of a difference.  The highest being 5% on a Tanker.

 

5% is only really nice when one can build up on those resists.  Which, figure the +8% Resist from 2 Unique IOs (one giving a little more resist as you take damage), and possibly just 1 6% Psi Resist IO (doubt to many are making out that Psi Resist IO).

 

So now 13-19% Psi Resist instead of the 8-14%

 

Was Psi Defense ever really anything tho?

[Wavicle]

Meh. It'll probably be fine. These are all very sturdy sets we're talking about in general.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Right, I understand the concept, but here's my concern:

Originally Super Reflexes was exceptional because it could defend against most Psi attacks. This was balanced by the fact that it had no heals or +HP or resistance. Well, now the sets that DO get heals and resistance ALSO get defense or res against Psi.

 

So it is precisely balance that concerns me here.

Have you played SR recently? It’s not hurting for a damn thing.

[Wavicle]

43 minutes ago, arcane said:

Have you played SR recently? It’s not hurting for a damn thing.

indeed I have, in fact I’m playing an ice/sr scrapper right now and you’re absolutely right.

[Kai Moon]

Neat for melee ATs. But it'll make the toxic & psi holes on buff/debuff ATs seem all the more odd, perhaps unjustifiable.

 

Buff/debuff powers match resist types to theme, same as armor sets. Colds resist cold, stormies resist energy, D3's resist negative. But a sonic themed tankfender will resist all damage types except a sonic themed damage type. That's weird.

 

So no problems with this change per se, just remember that toxic/psi holes aren't only a melee AT issue.

[CR Americas Angel]

PvP Feedback

(Me using these armors vs an opponent using Psy Melee)

 

Regen

Moment of Glory works well with the added psy res/def. Good change.

Invuln

Plays well. The increased resistance offsets psy melee being able to land more hits. Overall tankier vs Psy Melee than live. Good change.

 

Stone

Added psy def didn't make much difference. Psy Melee opponent was at 95% chance to hit the entire fight. (That said, a Dual Blades scrapper was able to kill my Stone Armour brute quicker than a Psy Melee user, so I don't think Psy vs stone is any worse than it is vs live in a practical sense. No real difference vs live, which ultimately is a good thing.)

 

Ice

Didn't test. Ice Armor is one of the worst sets in PvP. So it's hard to test whether these changes are good or bad for it.

Energy Aura

My initial thoughts were that, despite the psy def added to Overload, EA felt weak vs Psy Melee. (Especially as Greater Psy Blade is base acc 1.2 - it cuts right through the T9!)

 

Then I realized the current meta for EA is to not take Energy Protection or slot for psy res. After I tweaked my build a bit (see numbers, below) it seemed to play okay. 

 

As of Page 4, Energy Protection now gives (enhanceable) Psy Res, and the 6 psy res globals exist, as do six-slotting purples. So I think overall an EA player who built a dedicated anti-Psy Melee build will be more than able to make up for having effectively ~4% lower defense vs Psy Melee attacks than they did in Page 3.

 

Numbers for those curious:

 

Defense differential:

 

Resistance Differential:

 

With rune active:

 

[HunterMS]

Why does Combat Jumping give Toxic Defense, but weave doesn't?

[Gobbledigook]

O

 

Obviously this guy didn't have Combat jumping turned on and coudn't avoid that toxic mess. He should have switched it on.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Uun]

In addition to adding toxic defense to melee defense sets, it also needs to be added to buff sets and pool powers which provide both positional and typed defense buffs instead of defense (all). If you're providing a defense buff to someone with typed defenses, a positional defense buff won't stack. 

Cold Domination/Ice or Glacial Shield

Force Field/Deflection or Insulation Shield

Time/Farsight

Fighting/Weave