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The Pretty Good AE Debate


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1 hour ago, biostem said:

I think a big part of the divide stems from the notion of "fairness" and the disparity between "have's" and "have-not's" - On one end of the spectrum, you get purists, who stick to contact and story arc content, and deem that the only legitimate way to play - so they put in X amount of time and receive Y reward.  OTOH, you get more power-gamey folks, who farm themselves, get others to farm while they sit, or otherwise fully stock their characters ahead of time, and result in greater rewards for a shorter amount of time invested.  I'm not saying either side is fundamentally correct in their assessment, just that the division between the 2 mindsets can be so extreme, (and even impact the in-game economy in some cases), that such disparate stances may be irreconcilable...  

 

That is a fair assessment. But I don't think the "have's" and "have-not's" are necessarily who people think they might be. I mean, there are people who sit in the D for hours far richer than I, who play the AH market game while they roleplay. Some of the richest folks I know are like, level 5? If you want to prune that wealth gap, its not the farmers who are the "have's" in that scenario, its the people who play the in game monopoly market.

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1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

I keep seeing the same minority of people doing the "thumb down " stuff and commenting on anything closely related to farming. These players make it very well known their position to everyone. 

Which in turn has the same opposing group of players arguing with them. Yes, it is an argument there is no debate. One side wants it removed and doesn't care about repercussions from those actions.

The other side has stated just leave it alone, it's going to have ill effects, don't tell me how to play, etc.

 

Both sides have their reasoning on why it will mess everything up or is messing everything up. 

 

Yes. There are other things in this update which no one has been focused on as much as this argument from the Beta threads to General. Nothing is getting solved other than threads getting locked and bad feelings all around.

 

I came to a conclusion because initially I was pissed when this all started. But, now I don't care, it's a fucking game. If it changes in a way I don't like, so what I'll move on to other things. There are other servers, MMOs, console, etc out there that I can go to if I don't like this. 

 

Because, really all this shit is drama, petty fucking soap opera drama on a video game.

 

Yes but...

 

Will bill wake up from his coma?

 

And does Betty know June had a child with the milkman, who is secretly Bret's uncle?

 

When will the colonel be back from Montana and how will this affect the wedding between bret and panelipe?

 

ALL this and more, on next week's SOAP!

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31 minutes ago, Neiska said:

If you want to prune that wealth gap, its not the farmers who are the "have's" in that scenario, its the people who play the in game monopoly market.

It's not the wealth gap that I was referring to - it's a broader "player A has character B that can outperform my character, who I've put all this time into" type of thing.  And even then, in what way a character can be deemed to "outperform" another is very subjective - is it their AT?  That particular build?  IOs?  Incarnates?

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1 minute ago, biostem said:

It's not the wealth gap that I was referring to - it's a broader "player A has character B that can outperform my character, who I've put all this time into" type of thing.  And even then, in what way a character can be deemed to "outperform" another is very subjective - is it their AT?  That particular build?  IOs?  Incarnates?

 

But that is suggesting that Player A didn't put time in as well. Or that there needs be only one way to advance a character. And where does it say that it's a contest? Player A has a character that can outperform player B? Well, so what? I would be more interested in how long that character has been played, more than "how." Character is over a year old? It "should" have fully slotted incarnated T4's, in my opinion, so long as they put in the time and work to do it. And no, I don't mean "ran itrials till they got them" as the only valid means.

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Just now, Neiska said:

But that is suggesting that Player A didn't put time in as well. Or that there needs be only one way to advance a character. And where does it say that it's a contest? Player A has a character that can outperform player B? Well, so what? I would be more interested in how long that character has been played, more than "how." Character is over a year old? It "should" have fully slotted incarnated T4's, in my opinion, so long as they put in the time and work to do it. And no, I don't mean "ran itrials till they got them" as the only valid means.

I never discounted that.  It's all about *perception* - someone sees a farmer apparently roflstomp their way from one farm to the next, not realizing how long it took them to tailor that character to excel in that environment or what sacrifices had to be made toward that goal.  I'm just trying to point out that greed/envy or just what a lack of information can do to people...

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1 hour ago, Neiska said:

If you want to prune that wealth gap, its not the farmers who are the "have's" in that scenario, its the people who play the in game monopoly market.

To be strictly fair about it, they're only playing with wealth that's already in circulation. Buying and selling things on the market is just transferring wealth from one party to another. Technically, it's reducing total wealth because of the AH fees. Sure, Player A might have as much wealth as Player B, C, D, and E combined, but it was player B, C, D, and E that bought items from Player A after they found Player F's listings and saw a "profit" could be made with just a nominal amount of time spent crafting/converting.

 

I don't generally care about farming, but looking at the marketeers as those who are the "real problem" is misleading. Raw Influence on an account isn't a good indicator of where it came from or who gave it to who. Farming, by contrast, generates new currency that eventually devalues currency already in circulation. We don't have the level of inflation we had on the live servers, and probably never will, but it can still be a cause for concern if left unchecked for too long.

 

My only contention regarding the haves vs havenots scenario is the removal of systems that were leveraged for years that newer players won't be able to use in order adequately play catch-up. Vet levels, and by extension, Emps have been returned to the AE so I think that particular problem has been avoided. I still think there could be a loot table vendor that accepts Emps to simulate a more controlled, weaker version of the old Emp > Merit conversion but that's probably not happening.

Edited by ForeverLaxx
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exChampion and exInfinity player (Champion primarily).

 

Current resident of the Everlasting shard.

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On 8/5/2022 at 4:09 PM, Stoked said:

Everybody in this game - EVERYONE - farms. You call it running a weekly, I call it hypocritical farming.

 

No. Everybody doesn't farm.

I do not farm.

 

I don't go out of my way to run Weeklies. I do run them sometimes, but I'm running them as team gameplay. I don't have to run weeklies for merits. I have far more merits from card packs that I will likely ever use because I don't use merits very often.

I do my best to avoid speed runs on any content.

 

I don't even use x2 XP boosters unless I'm trying to keep up with leveling with someone that I'm leveling up a character with and they are using them.

 

You are making a blanket statement that is incorrect.

Edited by UltraAlt
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If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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If you run endless Radio missions, you are farming. If you run Maria Jenkins all day, you are farming. Unai Kemen arc? Old school farming. iTrial train? Incarnate farming. Need 20 people to boot stomp Adamastor in 6 seconds flat? Merit farming.

 

ALL REPETITIVE ACTIVITY IS FARMING! All of it. 

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Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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5 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I don't get it. I really don't. One of the real strengths of the City has always been its variety of playstyles. Solo, full team, farm, roleplay, read all the things Loregasm... It all works. Or at least it always has. Apparently that annoys some people.

 

I've stated it in other threads and I really don't want to go into it again, so I'll try to be brief.

I started playing about a week before Issue 2 dropped.

Almost exactly a year before the Sunset, I quit playing City of Heroes. I didn't re-subscribe when my yearly subscription came up for renewal (which was at that time), and I was so upset at what I saw as City of Heroes taking rapid nosedive into an increasingly worse game experience that I removed the bios from all my characters; loaded up a Praetorian Clockwork costume on every character; and bought each the self destruct power for each character. Over 150~ characters each walked under the statue of Atlas in Atlas Park and blew themselves up .... never to be logged in again.

 

What brought me to that state?

 

Seeing the dream of inspired AE content turned into a farming exploit-fest was the start. (and, yes, I mean exploit-fest. Farms were not the intent of the AE and players were using all the exploits that they could to maximize their returns in the AE). Watching the DEVs cave almost instantly on their no-farming policy and deleting their posts about how they were anti-farming (saying that they were going to drop a 40-ton ban hammer on anyone that exploited the AE before it was launched) was pitiful. Farming should have never been allowed in the AE [but the cat-is-out-of-the-bag now and for quite a long time at this point] 

Every post for a AE farm as like getting my creativity nerve stabbed with a knife.

I really wanted to create AE content that other players would play. That was what AE was supposed to be for. Instead it was Farming.

 

Gold farmer spamming increased.

 

City of Heroes went F2P. AE babies were yelling for farms. They couldn't find their way out of Atlas. Spamming on /help channel. Rude behavior on chat channels.

Power-leveling gone rampant. New players that didn't pay a dime to play could be level 50 in 2-4 hours.

 

I didn't like the Praetorian content. Superheroes used to live in a world that was strictly divided between good and evil. A villain was bad and needed to be stopped by someone with superpowers that would protect the average citizen from their evil deeds. Mythology. Praetorian content was the mixing and cross over of the "sides" as well as anew muddy-grey gameplay area with hideous sound effects.

 

Incarnate system was a horrible mess and NCSoft expected you to pay above and beyond my yearly subscription fee to take part in it. They started adding in more P2W content and other things that they expected the subscribers (that had been supporting the game for years) to pay for.

 

All the farming meant that the economy went crazy. I was at the point that I didn't even craft anything any more. I just put up bids for 45 recharges for 75k and sold them for 4 million each.

 

The game was broken to me. I was over it.

Homecoming is F2P, but has taken away all the real world dollars P2W. That changes the game drastically. 

 

I still don't like farming, but farming isn't used by gold farmers to turn around and sell influence for real world dollars on Homecoming as far as I know.

I tolerate farming now. It doesn't stab me in the soul he way that it used to, but I really don't think it should be allowed in the AE. That's my opinion. I shouldn't have to state that and I shouldn't have to state that I have a right like anyone else to express my opinions here.

 

Edited by UltraAlt
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If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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12 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

... I removed the bios from all my characters; loaded up a Praetorian Clockwork costume on every character; and bought each the self destruct power for each character. Over 150~ characters each walked under the statue of Atlas in Atlas Park and blew themselves up .... never to be logged in again.

So just to be clear, you are saying that AE farming caused this? That is a pretty odd behavior to be triggered by an external stimulus. 

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Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I don't generally care about farming, but looking at the marketeers as those who are the "real problem" is misleading. Raw Influence on an account isn't a good indicator of where it came from or who gave it to who. Farming, by contrast, generates new currency that eventually devalues currency already in circulation. We don't have the level of inflation we had on the live servers, and probably never will, but it can still be a cause for concern if left unchecked for too long.

 

First off, thank you for the fair and what seems to be a good breakdown. But I would argue that trying to moderate farming for that specific reason, isn't a solution. Because people will always "farm", only the "how" will change. If AE was gone tomorrow, people would just figure out the next most economically expedient thing to do, and repeat that into oblivion, and we will be right back where we are now. People saying "nerf that new thing" until it eventually is. Then it repeats, and so on and so forth.

 

If you want to put a dent in the amount of currency, it would be far better to have money sinks. I don't mean the Auction House either, because as you said that only moves money around, it doesn't "remove" it. And short of buying things on AH, there is very little else to do with money. Even the costume fees and things of that nature is a drop in the ocean. Live was before my time, but I do seem to remember reading somewhere, that base "upkeep" was a thing at one time. Now I doubt such a system would be embraced any more than any other suggestion. To be fair, that might make things worse and create new problems - such as people suddenly "having" to farm in order to pay for their giant sprawling bases, which could widen the gap between those with wealth and those without. And I can't claim the economic experience to offer any alternatives.

 

And speaking as a farmer, personally the majority of my money doesn't come from turning EMPs into merits. It's mostly by selling the giant stacks of white recipes i get for 100k a piece to an NPC and selling the occasional rare salvage or purple recipe I get. It's certainly not the most financially gainful method I am sure, but as long as I can "break even" on the cost it takes to build up a character, vs what I make with it, I have no complaints. But I do worry about them "over-nerfing" farming, particularly with regards to Veteran exp/materials, because as a largely solo player, there is little other choice, short of being forced to jump into the horror show that is itrials and the like. If it comes to that, I would make fewer alts, and thus spend less money, and have even more excess wealth. And I doubt I would be the only one. The only reason why I keep making alts, is to try out new things because it isn't particularly laborious to do so. The moment it becomes more of a cost than a gain to me, as in enjoyment vs effort/cost, then I will stop. At that point I won't "need" money, or merits, or incarnate materials. And assuming the game continues to hold my interest, I would only continue to stockpile more that which I already have. 

 

Just my thoughts on it. I do see the problem and the concern is a legitimate one. But I see little effort at a compromise from the anti-farmers. It feels very much "my way or the high way" or being flat out insinuated farmers are bad/evil/whatever ill term they choose. Which to me, speaks volumes about them moreso than it does the farmers. 

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22 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But I see little effort at a compromise from the anti-farmers

To be clear, I'm not anti-farm. My early memories of farming in CoH dates back to the old Freakshow dumpster farms. The devs have gone on record to say that they don't mind farming either, in a general sense. Everyone knows that if any kind of farm is possible, it's going to happen. What changes is how "profitable" that farm becomes and what things you can spend farmed materials on.

 

More sinks would certainly help. Base Upkeep was Prestige-based, I'm pretty sure, which was its own currency. We're getting yet another new currency for vanity items, so that's out of the question. What could you offer for Influence that a player might find valuable but a farmer wouldn't find trivial to get? I'd imagine it would have to be something with a duration that could be purchased multiple times, but we already have things like that and it's not working.

 

The only way any changes to farming income would be effective (that still allows characters to meaningfully farm) is to find the reward balance and spending balance points. That's probably a pretty monumental undertaking for a small team of volunteers.

exChampion and exInfinity player (Champion primarily).

 

Current resident of the Everlasting shard.

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3 hours ago, Krimson said:

If you run endless Radio missions, you are farming. If you run Maria Jenkins all day, you are farming. Unai Kemen arc? Old school farming. iTrial train? Incarnate farming. Need 20 people to boot stomp Adamastor in 6 seconds flat? Merit farming.

 

ALL REPETITIVE ACTIVITY IS FARMING! All of it. 

 

no, repetitive activities is grinding, farming is where the gain is optimised for speed/efficiency

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36 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

no, repetitive activities is grinding, farming is where the gain is optimised for speed/efficiency

 

meanwhile me with an Empathy/Energy Defender in a Crater AE Mission is just grinding i guess.

Edited by blue4333
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is it just me or I'm getting the feeling that the ex-Score players are shook by the difference of opinions on certain matters? I think years of being an yes-man must have not made them ready for this.

 

i mean even making a thread crying about downvotes?

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2 hours ago, blue4333 said:

 

meanwhile me with an Empathy/Energy Defender in a Crater AE Mission is just grinding i guess.

No, you thumbs downing every single post you can, regardless of what it is about, from people you don't like, is farming.

 

Amusing thumb farming.

 

Where's @Troo?

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2 hours ago, blue4333 said:

is it just me or I'm getting the feeling that the ex-Score players are shook by the difference of opinions on certain matters? I think years of being an yes-man must have not made them ready for this.

 

i mean even making a thread crying about downvotes?

 

Pot, meet kettle.

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11 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

If I'm going to be raising my concerns and opposition to a change that will affect what players have been doing since Live and HC, call me a non-stick ceramic pot all you want honey. At least I'm not sitting on a moral high horse and judging people for engaging in an activity that they deem fun and I might add not against the TOS. 

 

image.png

 

Go ahead, and alienate these players i guess.

 

You know what, I would suggest eliminating speed runs as well. We should insert a time-limit spend on a TF/SF before the rewards at the end can be rewarded. Eg. Finish a Yin TF below 10 mins? You don't get the merits. Because "BACK IN THOSE DAYS" wE diDn't hAvE IOs or those pEsKy InCaRnAtE powers, making my Empathy pure healer useless 

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8 hours ago, Krimson said:

If you run endless Radio missions, you are farming. If you run Maria Jenkins all day, you are farming. Unai Kemen arc? Old school farming. iTrial train? Incarnate farming. Need 20 people to boot stomp Adamastor in 6 seconds flat? Merit farming.

 

ALL REPETITIVE ACTIVITY IS FARMING! All of it. 

The devs have said multiple times that they don't have anything against farming.  The only position they do seem to take on farming is that, in an ideal game, all those different types of farming should give approximately equal rewards, and that none of them should damage the economy.

Edited by Grouchybeast
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Reunion player, ex-Defiant.

AE SFMA: Zombie Ninja Pirates! (#18051)

 

Regeneratio delenda est!

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20 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

The devs have said multiple times that they don't have anything against farming.  The only position they do seem to take on farming is that, in an ideal game, all those different types of farming should give approximately equal rewards, and that none of them should damage the economy.

 

If more people are putting recipes, purples and LOTGs on the AH, regardless of activity (farming, TF/SFs, PI missions) wouldn't prices drop as a result of the supply?

 

Then making farming less desirable would reduce that supply.

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3 minutes ago, blue4333 said:

If more people are putting recipes, purples and LOTGs on the AH, regardless of activity (farming, TF/SFs, PI missions) wouldn't prices drop as a result of the supply?

 

Then making farming less desirable would reduce that supply.

 

Indeed.  Hence why, as they have said, they don't have anything against farming.

Reunion player, ex-Defiant.

AE SFMA: Zombie Ninja Pirates! (#18051)

 

Regeneratio delenda est!

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14 hours ago, biostem said:

Or you're just paranoid.  You haven't been removed, and if you're at all concerned about that happening in the future, contact a mod/admin and state your position/concerns.

 

You are certainly free to assume whatever you like, but it is a fact that when you flood the market with inf, the buying power of each individual inf becomes less.  Alternatively, you ccan run content that gives you merits and directly buy whatever you want.

 

I can't speak to the devs' underlying motives.  Farming AE was never something I did to any great extent, so this change won't impact me, but I don't really care what other people do, as long as they can play competently.

Point by point - I'm not paranoid. They really are out to get me. They have stated it. They do not want folks to convert emp merits to converters, which is what I've been doing as soon as I discovered it was an option about 18 months ago. They don't want this to occur, presumably because folks are dumping converters on the AH. While I see no problem with this, they do. I personally do not think there are enough converters in the market. When I was farming, I would go through about 3k a day, which is easily 10% of the converters on the market's best days, generally when a high merit tf is the weekly. And that's just me. I am but one farmer amongst hundreds. Now, when I say they don't want me, certainly that's not literally true. They probably would prefer I run task forces for those merits and get converters that way. Less stress on the servers, another potential teammate, everyone wins - except me. 

It is NOT a fact that the market gets flooded with influence. Ever. Yes, the more npcs that are defeated, the more influence is in the economy. But is it? Can you really count my 500 billion as part of the economy? My stack grows, but for all practical purposes, I only have 300M inf on the character I'm playing right now. That 500Billion will likely never get spent, because influence is meaningless in this game. Emp merits are really the only currency I'm after. 
Why should I run content for emp merits when I can farm and simply craft and convert what I want?  I'm all for running content when the mood suits me. But I'm also for afk-farming when the mood suits me - and when that mood does suit me, I don't want to be penalized because someone like yourself has an opposing opinion, and quite possibly assumes certain premises are factual when they are not. 

You mention competent play, and I certain respect that. But competent play requires a number of things; at minimum, enough visual acuity to see the team chat and what's going on during a mission, a fair knowledge of in-game mechanics, decent eye/hand coordination, a computer that's fairly up to date, at least, enough to load into a map without disconnecting, and the ability to kit out a character. And, this proposed change would negatively impact a fair number of players with their ability to do just that. Sure, all of us can run content for 100 merits and work the system and directly buy whatever we want. But not everyone has the time to commit when various teams are being formed. Some of us only have small blocks of time. And, candidly, some of us don't want to team that often. Farming is an excellent solo activity. And AFK-farming, even more so. 

Many players are under the impression that this game economy would mirror fundamentals of economics. And it can, to a point, but because salvage is seeded, the merit vendor exists, the economics of this game do not mirror reality. 

Someone like myself, or Yomo, Hedgefund, Dahle - our influence goes largely unspent. If we spent it, what would be the point? It's not how much influence you earn, it's how much you save. Every 50M I save is an hour I don't have to farm. (roughly)   
In reality, we are our own influence sink since the Devs don't seem to want to give us one. We just sink it into bids on unavailable items in the AH and in email. 

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15 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

the market already has price caps in place for IOs through the various seeding in place and merit conversion. prices can be capped through further seeding if required

If you think folks are going to be happy about paying those "capped" prices through the merit vendor, you keep dreaming. If you thought farmers were vocal about this proposed change, when the price of an ATO essentially goes from 5-7M to 21 million, it's going to piss folks off. 

The 21M figure comes from 100 merits = 300 converters = 300*70k = 21M
There are no proposed changes (yet) to account for the likely effect. It won't bother me. I have thousands of ATOs and Winters and Purples. But it will bother a lot of folks when it's time to kit out their build. 

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19 hours ago, Astralock said:

Incarnate abilities were first introduced in Issue 19, back in October 2010.  The only way you could obtain them was from Emyprean merits, Incarnate threads, and Incarnate salvage from... Incarnate trials and Apemage.  A solo-friendly method was added in Issue 22 with the introduction of the Dark Astoria revamp back in March 2012, a year and a half later.  For a year and a half, the only ways you could possibly gain Incarnate abilities were by running Incarnate trials and Apemage.  Paragon Studios relented and added a solo-friendly option a year and a half later to try to appease solo or mostly solo players, but it was time gated and you could not acquire Incarnate abilities anywhere near as quickly as you could by running Incarnate trials.  So, no, it's not an assumption on my part.  It's how Incarnates were originally designed.

On the other hand, ask yourself why HC installed veteran level rewards in the first place. 
Because of the small player population. Look around! Incarnate trial leaders will tell you that they burn 10-20 minutes, if not more, when forming for an iTrial, except maybe during peak hours on the weekend. I never had to wait more than 5-10 minutes at most on Liberty back in the day. 
The HC devs understand that solo play is the primary method of play. More soloers than folks who team. Team play is in the minority. This is largely due to the wider age gap, I think. Most of us are grown adults that can't often commit to the iTrial train of BAF, Lambda, Keyes. 

 

We can't just assume the way the original Paragon Studio devs installed things was the right way for the player base. They did get shut down, remember. Despite having a profit, it was minimal profit. NCSoft knew this; they would make more money just putting the investment in the stock market than in CoH. So, clearly, Paragon Studios, despite our love for them because of the wonderful world they created, they did a lot of things less than optimally.
I'm sure there's a number of players that would like to go back to SO only days, before enhancement diversification. Then they bring in the invention system...so which did they get right? Pre-ED SOs vs invention system...they installed the IOs well after SOs, which are still available. Did they get SOs wrong? Or did they "relent" and allow for more variation with the invention system where almost no two builds are alike? 

It doesn't matter how incarnates were originally designed. We're here now, at this point in time, with a much smaller player base that doesn't want to rely on incarnate trials for incarnate loot. It's that simple. The question is, "Will the HC devs insist players mostly rely on Incarnate trials and hardmode tfs like Aeon and the upcoming ITF?" 

Clearly, a lot of time and effort was spent on these two new Hard Mode tfs. Of course they want the players to spend time playing them! But to make changes in the game where a player feels pushed towards "main stream content", when they were perfectly happy doing AE...what's the point of that?! It's silly. Further, it doesn't make sense to me. (and it doesn't have to, but I really want it to) 

All this talk about folks wanting reward/risk to not favor the farmer - just buff the rewards for non-AE stuff. It's that simple. That way, folks that are complaining about farmers getting rich doing nothing can go make more than the farmers by doing content. And the farmers have nothing to complain about because nothing they were doing was impacted. 

It's just a common sense solution, really. I fail to see why so many of you can't see it. 

 

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