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The Pretty Good AE Debate


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11 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I still don't like farming, but farming isn't used by gold farmers to turn around and sell influence for real world dollars on Homecoming as far as I know.

 

Oh yes they most certainly are, and there is only one CoH server this is happening on.  Other servers offer tools that render the need for gold farmers pointless. 

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8 hours ago, blue4333 said:

is it just me or I'm getting the feeling that the ex-Score players are shook by the difference of opinions on certain matters? I think years of being an yes-man must have not made them ready for this.

 

i mean even making a thread crying about downvotes?

You keep incorrectly associating everyone who disagrees with you with some group or another and it makes you look reeeeeally ignorant af. 
 

PS You’re one of the only people here that seems “shook” by disagreement and difference of opinion.

 

PPS And the downvote thread is obviously a joke thread in which everyone is having fun but nice try? Incessant misrepresentation seems like it would take a lot of mental energy.

Edited by arcane
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13 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

No everybody doesn't farm.

I do not farm.

 

I don't go out of my way to run Weeklies. I do run them sometimes, but I'm running them as team gameplay. I don't have to run weeklies for merits. I have far more merits from card packs that I will likely ever use because I don't use merits very often.

I do my best to avoid speed runs on any content.

 

I don't even use x2 XP boosters unless I'm trying to keep up with leveling with someone that I'm leveling up a character with and they are using them.

 

You are making a blanket statement that is incorrect.

 

it seems to be a shock to some people that a lot of people enjoy.. playing the game.. 

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2 hours ago, Ukase said:

On the other hand, ask yourself why HC installed veteran level rewards in the first place. 
Because of the small player population. Look around! Incarnate trial leaders will tell you that they burn 10-20 minutes, if not more, when forming for an iTrial, except maybe during peak hours on the weekend. I never had to wait more than 5-10 minutes at most on Liberty back in the day. 
The HC devs understand that solo play is the primary method of play. More soloers than folks who team. Team play is in the minority. This is largely due to the wider age gap, I think. Most of us are grown adults that can't often commit to the iTrial train of BAF, Lambda, Keyes. 

 

We can't just assume the way the original Paragon Studio devs installed things was the right way for the player base. They did get shut down, remember. Despite having a profit, it was minimal profit. NCSoft knew this; they would make more money just putting the investment in the stock market than in CoH. So, clearly, Paragon Studios, despite our love for them because of the wonderful world they created, they did a lot of things less than optimally.
I'm sure there's a number of players that would like to go back to SO only days, before enhancement diversification. Then they bring in the invention system...so which did they get right? Pre-ED SOs vs invention system...they installed the IOs well after SOs, which are still available. Did they get SOs wrong? Or did they "relent" and allow for more variation with the invention system where almost no two builds are alike? 

It doesn't matter how incarnates were originally designed. We're here now, at this point in time, with a much smaller player base that doesn't want to rely on incarnate trials for incarnate loot. It's that simple. The question is, "Will the HC devs insist players mostly rely on Incarnate trials and hardmode tfs like Aeon and the upcoming ITF?" 

Clearly, a lot of time and effort was spent on these two new Hard Mode tfs. Of course they want the players to spend time playing them! But to make changes in the game where a player feels pushed towards "main stream content", when they were perfectly happy doing AE...what's the point of that?! It's silly. Further, it doesn't make sense to me. (and it doesn't have to, but I really want it to) 

All this talk about folks wanting reward/risk to not favor the farmer - just buff the rewards for non-AE stuff. It's that simple. That way, folks that are complaining about farmers getting rich doing nothing can go make more than the farmers by doing content. And the farmers have nothing to complain about because nothing they were doing was impacted. 

It's just a common sense solution, really. I fail to see why so many of you can't see it. 

 

 

Again, as has been stated earlier in this thread and has been stated a few times by other people in other threads over the years... Homecoming didn't add veteran levels.  The SCoRE "secret" server did, for a population a fraction of Homecoming's.  I'm talking about a fraction of even the Reunion shard's population.  Homecoming's population is hundreds of times larger.  Homecoming took what SCoRE had and rushed it into production after the Bree server went offline.

 

Oh no, you have to wait ten to twenty minutes for a trial or raid to form.  The horror!  I think sometimes people need to be reminded that City of Heroes is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game.  Massively multiplayer.

 

Also, you can't buff things to match extreme outliers.  You need to reign in the extreme outlier.  You can (and probably should), still buff rewards outside of Mission Architect a bit, but in the end, the rewards from AE need to be nerfed as they are an extreme outlier.

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1 minute ago, Astralock said:

I think sometimes people need to be reminded that City of Heroes is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. 

 

Methinks "massive" is quite overstated with 1255 people online.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Also, you can't buff things to match extreme outliers.  You need to reign in the extreme outlier.

 

100% agreed when it comes to powerset and archetype balance.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralock said:

You can (and probably should), still buff rewards outside of Mission Architect a bit, but in the end, the rewards from AE need to be nerfed as they are an extreme outlier.

 

AE's not really an outlier if the vast majority of leveling happens there.

 

But I'm game. Let's see what happens to the player population if the devs manage to nerf AE enough so that an ss/fire/mu brute can only get the same rewards per minute in AE that an emp/nrg defender can get outside of it.

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I will never understand the "only buffs, no nerfs" crowd. Only being satisfied with an "I Win" button is no way to balance anything.

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7 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Where's @Troo?

 

Are you referring to this dumpster fire or the thumbdowns? "do not cross the streams!"

 

 

Edited by Troo
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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

bah, thumbs down lamo

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1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Let's see what happens to the player population if the devs manage to nerf AE enough so that an ss/fire/mu brute can only get the same rewards per minute in AE that an emp/nrg defender can get outside of it.

Nobody is suggesting that. Zero reason to entangle your own private soloist AT balance agenda with an unrelated issue. 🙂 

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Just now, arcane said:

Nobody is suggesting that. Zero reason to entangle your own private soloist AT balance agenda with an unrelated issue. 🙂 

 

Bullshit, no one is suggesting it. Farming in AE needs one well built farmer *soloing* and that's precisely what has the anti-ae crowd all in a tizzy. ""Those" people aren't being forced to team! "Those" people are earning inf/xp/emps/etc far faster than I can outside of AE! "Those" people are letting folks doorsit and level/earn rewards faster than actually "playing the game!"

 

It's quite related.

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I will never understand the "only buffs, no nerfs" crowd. Only being satisfied with an "I Win" button is no way to balance anything.

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1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Bullshit, no one is suggesting it. Farming in AE needs one well built farmer *soloing* and that's precisely what has the anti-ae crowd all in a tizzy. ""Those" people aren't being forced to team! "Those" people are earning inf/xp/emps/etc far faster than I can outside of AE! "Those" people are letting folks doorsit and level/earn rewards faster than actually "playing the game!"

 

It's quite related.

 

Do you really think it's this bad? I don't.

 

Sure there's a lot of huffing and puffing. But as Flea pointed out look at the new stuff coming as well. New content, powerset, costume stuff, advance mobs, lots of good stuff.

Forced to team, nah.

Concern about some outliers, yes. But overall AE was already addressed and we'll see where it is after this patch. Further adjustments will likely be made.

Door sitting, nah. A minor annoyance for pugs having folks 'learning' how to play when already at high levels.

 

It's summer time. Nothing to get all fired up about except my brand new bbq in 100 degree weather.

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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

bah, thumbs down lamo

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6 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Do you really think it's this bad? I don't.

 

Sure there's a lot of huffing and puffing. But as Flea pointed out look at the new stuff coming as well. New content, powerset, costume stuff, advance mobs, lots of good stuff.

Forced to team, nah.

Concern about some outliers, yes. But overall AE was already addressed and we'll see where it is after this patch. Further adjustments will likely be made.

Door sitting, nah. A minor annoyance for pugs having folks 'learning' how to play when already at high levels.

 

It's summer time. Nothing to get all fired up about except my brand new bbq in 100 degree weather.

 

Do I really think some people on this forum have actually stated just those opinions on AE? Yes, because they have. Do I think the devs are silly enough to go along with those opinions? Course not.

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I will never understand the "only buffs, no nerfs" crowd. Only being satisfied with an "I Win" button is no way to balance anything.

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19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Bullshit, no one is suggesting it. Farming in AE needs one well built farmer *soloing* and that's precisely what has the anti-ae crowd all in a tizzy. ""Those" people aren't being forced to team! "Those" people are earning inf/xp/emps/etc far faster than I can outside of AE! "Those" people are letting folks doorsit and level/earn rewards faster than actually "playing the game!"

 

It's quite related.

I can see how you extrapolated that far but I disagree that solo-ness is the reason AE is being referred to an outlier in the context of this thread. Look at that, you and I are at another agree to disagree spot. Cheers 🙂 

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10 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

no, repetitive activities is grinding, farming is where the gain is optimised for speed/efficiency

Well crap.... I farm Grand Theft Auto Online? Whoa...

 

EDIT: Except you should see the reactions I get when I show that Smashing/Lethal can be optimized better AND leads to farming toons that can also do regular content...

 

This is why my S/L farm thread is dead. Optimizing the S/L farmer takes more work. 😄

Edited by Krimson

Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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7 hours ago, blue4333 said:

You know what, I would suggest eliminating speed runs as well. We should insert a time-limit spend on a TF/SF before the rewards at the end can be rewarded. Eg. Finish a Yin TF below 10 mins? You don't get the merits. Because "BACK IN THOSE DAYS" wE diDn't hAvE IOs or those pEsKy InCaRnAtE powers, making my Empathy pure healer useless 

I crack jokes and stuff but... Holy crap, imagine an optimized team running a long TF with some weird reverse timer...

 

I could actually run these because we could take breaks. Imagine clearing a section and then you have a whole 8 minutes to go to the bathroom, check on the house, or what have you. 

 

I could actually do Task Forces.

Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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10 hours ago, blue4333 said:

is it just me or I'm getting the feeling that the ex-Score players are shook by the difference of opinions on certain matters? I think years of being an yes-man must have not made them ready for this.

 

i mean even making a thread crying about downvotes?

 

Okay, I'll bite this bait and out myself. Again.

 

I'm one of those former score players. And if you think that we never had any disagreements amongst ourselves or never dared to question what our own Powers That Be wanted to do... I have a nice beach house in Arizona to sell you. There were some epic arguments on a whole host of subjects. No one from that bunch is a stranger to disagreement, I promise you. 

 

Leo himself once called me "delusional" for disagreeing with him. Which didn't stop me from arguing my point. "Yes (wo)men", indeed. 😝  

 

 

 

Edited by Coyotedancer
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33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

AE's not really an outlier if the vast majority of leveling happens there.

I think the fact that the vast majority of leveling (as well as the vast majority of inf gain) happens there is what makes in an outlier. It is human nature to pile on the quick/fast/easy/repeatable nature of AE. If it were not an outlier, people wouldn't be doing it so much, and thus we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. 

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20 hours ago, Neiska said:

The fact that people push for AE/Incarnate changes "of old," and not other things such as, oh, I dunno, Removal of the Gull, paying upkeep on bases, locking some clothing behind achievements or badges, or removal of power updates/changes/new sets, tells me that it isn't about balance at all, but more about people just wanting to be Elitist Karen Gatekeepers and feel they have the right to dictate to others on how to play. Especially if they claim "for the good of the community" while ignoring the loss in players such proposed changes might have on that community. 

 

Some of that is also about picking your battles.  I'd be totally for re-locking some of the costume bits (as it encourages seeking out and running specific content), as well as removing some of Null's options.  But those are likely neither feasible, nor popular, so it's not even worth debating.

 

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

Also, you can't buff things to match extreme outliers.

 

You can too!  That's pretty much what Diablo 3 did for a while...  and virtually all of the game is a complete and utter cakewalk now once you're geared up.

 

22 hours ago, Neiska said:

But the big one is C.) The removal of things and tools we once had, such as the teleport command. Now instead of being able to move zones, one must collect badges to unlock them.

 

Probably too late to be of help on this one, but they *barely* nerfed that command - you can still use that command, from *anywhere*, for 10s after casting LRTP, or after using the dayjob "summon base portal" power (from logging out next to a base portal).

 

14 hours ago, Neiska said:

If you want to put a dent in the amount of currency, it would be far better to have money sinks. I don't mean the Auction House either, because as you said that only moves money around, it doesn't "remove" it. And short of buying things on AH, there is very little else to do with money. Even the costume fees and things of that nature is a drop in the ocean. Live was before my time, but I do seem to remember reading somewhere, that base "upkeep" was a thing at one time. Now I doubt such a system would be embraced any more than any other suggestion. To be fair, that might make things worse and create new problems - such as people suddenly "having" to farm in order to pay for their giant sprawling bases, which could widen the gap between those with wealth and those without. And I can't claim the economic experience to offer any alternatives.

 

The AH removes quite a bit of Inf - 10% of the sell value of everything sold.  But that's still only a drop in the bucket, compared to how much Inf. is floating around.

 

And I remember Upkeep as well, and was super happy when it was removed on Live (some time after base raids went away), as it meant that I could save Prestige to have a nice solo base, instead of needing to join a larger SG just to have basic amenities like storage or teleporters.  Re-instating Upkeep & Prestige would likely cripple the base building community, which is a total no-go (it'd be like making AE enemies drop nothing, then putting an entrance fee on the maps).  I want the AE nerfed, yes, but not nearly that far.

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16 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I think the fact that the vast majority of leveling (as well as the vast majority of inf gain) happens there is what makes in an outlier. It is human nature to pile on the quick/fast/easy/repeatable nature of AE. If it were not an outlier, people wouldn't be doing it so much, and thus we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. 

Yes, the vast majority of leveling wouldn’t be happening in AE if it wasn’t an extreme outlier in terms of rewards output per unit of input. Not sure which part of that is debatable..

 

You can acknowledge this as truth without wanting to nerf the whole thing into the ground. So people don’t need to lose their shit over mere statements of fact.

Edited by arcane
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12 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yes, the vast majority of leveling wouldn’t be happening in AE if it wasn’t an extreme outlier in terms of rewards output per unit of input. Not sure which part of that is debatable..

 

You can acknowledge this as truth without wanting to nerf the whole thing into the ground. So people don’t need to lose their shit over mere statements of fact.

 

There seems to be quite a bit of testimony about what AE was like during Live, and it sure sounds like this information was well known.

 

So with the fact that everyone already seemed to know what AE was like on Live, my question is now:

 

Why did the Devs decide to launch Homecoming with AE fully intact?

Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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Something else to keep in mind re: the current AE rewards... They've already been nerfed a couple of times since Homecoming went live. What we get in our farms these days is considerably diminished from where we started.

 

I keep seeing claims that we're getting orders of magnitude better returns from farming than is even possible in regular content, but I'm not sure non-farmers really have a solid idea what our numbers actually look like. I suspect, when it comes to active farmers at least, we may be pulling in somewhat less than you guys expect.

 

Just to give you some "real world" numbers to play with... When I jump into an Atta's Cave style farming map with Ossuni and a level 50 sidekick like Cantus (that Sonic Defender whose iToys I've been working on lately-), it takes me a little under an hour to clear the place if I'm taking my time, Zen style. I vendor common recipes and enhancements, sell off the yellow and orange recipes and the salvage on the auction house, keeping any purples and a few favorite PvP recipes for my own use. I also keep catalysts, since I like attuning sets on the support types I build to run at mid-level.

 

When all is said and done? Those two characters will end up with around 25m INF each, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less depending on drop luck. So, call it somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 million for the hour.

 

It's a nice chunk of change, but not quite in OMGOUTRAGEOUS territory. (Ask Yomo or Ukase how much a marketeer can make in that same hour for comparison-) It takes three or four runs in total to make enough to fully equip a character like Cantus. (That is to say, a solid but not min/maxed bleeding-edge build, using attuned sets... and minus any ATOs, PvP specials, Hamis or Purples that I might want to give him. I don't ever buy those. I pull them from my stash. If I *did* have to buy them? Double the number of farm runs it would take to finance the build, at a rough guess.)

 

How does that compare to an "old school" farm run on Council Earth, Wolf World or Harvey's demon map? Now THAT is the interesting question! It's something I'd love to know, honestly, and have a plan to find out... I have a character who can S/L farm (*pats Ironhorse on the head*) and I recently rebuilt the DB/WP "Fireproof Scrap" that I had back on Live, who was originally built to handle Harvey's demons at +4/x8 on their own. My plan is to run them through an hour's worth of demons and werewolves a few times with the same level 50 sidekick like Suni would have in AE, and then compare the results. 

 

My expectation is that the Old School results will be a little below AE's, but not for the reason you might expect.... that is to say, the AE mobs giving too much. No, I suspect it'll come down to the two "outside farmers" being slower to clear the mobs. They're a DB/WP scrap and a DB/Rad Brute. Neither has the one big speed advantage my Claws/Fire Brute has... Her Burn patch.

 

The solution? See how those two characters fare on an AE Fire and S/L run!

 

I... just have to actually find the time to do it. Which hasn't been easy lately. 

Real Life is getting in the way of my game time, dammit. *shakes tiny, experimental farming fist* 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Coyotedancer
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Taker of screenshots. Player of creepy Oranbegans and Rularuu bird-things.

Kai's Diary: The Scrapbook of a Sorcerer's Apprentice

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15 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I tolerate farming now. It doesn't stab me in the soul he way that it used to, but I really don't think it should be allowed in the AE. That's my opinion.

 

Tolerance is a wonderful thing and the best that anyone can ask for.  Sadly, tolerance seems to be in very short supply here.  I wish more people were more tolerant of how others choose to spend their free time.

Edited by ShardWarrior
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5 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Why did the Devs decide to launch Homecoming with AE fully intact?

 

Fully intact?!

It is AE Plus.

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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

bah, thumbs down lamo

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1 minute ago, Troo said:

Fully intact?!

It is AE Plus.

This sure looks like a case of trying to put the Genie back in the Bottle, after opening the bottle with a hammer. 

Smashing/Lethal Farmer and a Giant Monster Hunter on Excelsior

Monster Hunters: Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corruptor), Kurodoru (Dark/Dark Brute), Canadian Content (Rad/Atom Blaster)

Try Arc IDs: 44869 "The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Troll Cave map with 99 mobs, all patrols.  45166 "Hail The Orb" - Smashing/Lethal Farm on the Dreck Freakshow map with 151 mobs, 61 Elite Bosses

Farmers: Freak Out (Rad/Fire Brute, Fire Farmer), Dara Kill (Dark/Spines Tanker, S/L Farmer), Freak Fire (Fire/Rad Tanker, Farm Everything), Blue Idoru (Main, Elec/Kin Corr, Farm Anything), Spidoru (Crabbermind, Farm Anything), various other fighters and support.

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