Raising PvP Zone -level enforcement- NON RV

[Kataklysm]

Hey thanks for your time and thanks for dropping by my post! After a lot of discourse on how to go about this and feedback from a lot of people all over the community. here's my idea.

Removing the minimum entry level from PvP zones is already committed, and with the new Level 50 "Temporal Characters" for PvP the question remains, are we using the lower level PvP zones, because what I'm hearing a lot is no. So I propose a poll to decide if people think this is a viable baby step to making the zones more interesting/ add some more zone diversity for these new 50's ( this change pitch does not apply to Recluses Victory that can be left alone as it's already 50 w/alpha )
 

• Pitch 1: Raise Bloody Bay, Sirens Call, and Warburg to level 50 to equalize the zone PvP experience to the new PvP accessibility changes
   
• Pitch 2: Raise Bloody Bay to 30(from 25), and Leave Sirens call at 30, to not axe lower level the small part of the community who likes the limited alt build PvP challenge (no T9's). but still raise Warburg to 50 like pitch 1. This way you have more diversity of zones for 50 PvP, while not taking everything from those who don't hate the lower level restrictions.
• Pitch 3: Don't change the level caps, they are fine where they are.

A lot of this pitch gains traction for me because it's not super time hungry to implement over all.
To quote Faultline. 

Quote

"change data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_SirensCallPvP.scriptdef,  data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_BloodyBayPvP.scriptdef and  data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_WarburgPvP.scriptdef, set var PvPCombatLevel = 50 instead of their existing levels, and restart the mapserver."

"I change the level of the spawndefs, so any mobs that exist at the right levels go up, yes. 30 second change, + half an hour waiting for mapserver to rebuild spawndefs"

"finding the mobs that need tweaking and increasing their levels is the time consuming bit. but still a lot less work that ignorecombatmods and more futureproof"

A question was asked, if it's worth worrying about the mobs that don't scale to 50 to be fixed over time, as time permits. Since, it's a PvP zone and it would be an understatement to say the critters are not the focus of the zone.

It would leave the mobs without level 50 definitions at a lower level than the zone, say 37 for thorns, to be fixed with a later update. But, I think if it's a sacrifice people would be willing to tolerate for the time being, leave a comment letting me know "who cares! it's a PvP zone after all" or "yeah this bothers me, here's why". Lets discuss the affected critters.

If the majority of people agree the few weird mobs are a tolerable side effect (to be fixed later), Since this has potential be a quick change,  maybe it could make it on page 4(probably not)? I can't promise that with any seriousness though.

I'm leaning towards option 2: because with two zones at level 30( no T9 ), and two at 50, it creates a more flat level meta, it's a good start.
 

What do you folks think! I'd love to see these unloved zones get some sunlight and more controlled level balance, thanks for reading!

Edited July 30, 2022 by Terius

[Glacier Peak]

My take is to leave the level caps on each zone and don't change the enemy mobs. PvP npcs are some of the toughest enemies outside of incarnate or hardmode content thanks to DR values in PvP. They're alright in my book. 

 

Edit: I've been persuaded based on discussion with others. I would like option "2. Raise Bloody Bay to 30, Sirens Call, and Warburg to level 50" because I love Siren's and would like more zones to PvP at 50.

 

But I did still worry about the npc mobs in those zones getting borked. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Kataklysm]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

My take is to leave the level caps on each zone and don't change the enemy mobs. PvP npcs are some of the toughest enemies outside of incarnate or hardmode content thanks to DR values in PvP. They're alright in my book. 

Doesn't making all of them 50 make them harder then? or at the very least change nothing about their difficulty. since they're -still under the same DR values.- as this isn't a call to remove DR's just to raise the enforced levels in bb/ sc/ wb to 50 from 25/ 30/ 38 or 30 /50 /50 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Rudra]

I'm going to say leave them as is. The Temporal Character instant level 50 bit won't affect PvE'ers going into the zones. At least with the level caps, it would be a slightly less one-sided fight. Edit: Or am I misunderstanding the Temporal Character bit?

Edited July 23, 2022 by Rudra

[Kataklysm]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to say leave them as is. The Temporal Character instant level 50 bit won't affect PvE'ers going into the zones. At least with the level caps, it would be a slightly less one-sided fight. Edit: Or am I misunderstanding the Temporal Character bit?

PvE'ers go in those zones? Thats news to me. aside from badges.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Terius said:

PvE'ers go in those zones? Thats news to me. aside from badges.

That's why we go into those zones....

[America's Angel]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm going to say leave them as is. The Temporal Character instant level 50 bit won't affect PvE'ers going into the zones. At least with the level caps, it would be a slightly less one-sided fight. Edit: Or am I misunderstanding the Temporal Character bit?

Temporal Characters will be able to attack anyone who goes into a PvP zone.

 

Typically, any PVE player is going to get killed by someone with a dedicated PvP build, regardless of level.

[Rudra]

PvE players already get killed by dedicated PvP builds when they go into PvP zones. At least there is the illusion of competitiveness though. That level 25 character that just mopped the entire zone with my face? Was only a level 25 character. Even if actually a level 50 with all IOs already slotted.

 

I'm pretty certain my opinion on this is going to be in the minority. PvP players will dictate what PvP zones are like. And since those zones are there for them, that's how it should be. Just giving my two cents worth.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add "since" and change "so fine" to "that's how it should be".

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Terius said:

"change data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_SirensCallPvP.scriptdef,  data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_BloodyBayPvP.scriptdef and  data/scripts.loc/ScriptDefs/V_WarburgPvP.scriptdef, set var PvPCombatLevel = 50 instead of their existing levels, and restart the mapserver."

"I change the level of the spawndefs, so any mobs that exist at the right levels go up, yes. 30 second change, + half an hour waiting for mapserver to rebuild spawndefs"

 

I'm curious where this quote is from?

 

 

1 hour ago, Terius said:

PvE'ers go in those zones? Thats news to me. aside from badges.

 

I spend a good bit of time in the PvP zones doing things other than PvP.

 

Besides badges and badges for accolades there are fun mini games, temps, challenges, enemy groups for hunting, and interactions. Some which are not found in other zones.

• Bloody Bay Minigame: Shivan Strike
  • https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Shiva_Strike_Mission
  • Temp: Shivan Shard Summon Shivan Decimator (5 charges)
• Siren's Call Minigame: Battle for Siren's Call
  • https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Battle_for_Siren's_Call
  • Player gets to fight with an army against another army.
  • At any given time, there are usually one or two active hotspots on the map. Large groups of NPCs (armies) stand around there, and sometimes decide to shoot at one another; Players can both attack enemy forces and assist friendlies with heals, buffs and taunts.
• Warburg Minigame: Launch the Warburg Rocket
  • https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Missile_Launch_Mission
  • 3 Temporary Missile powers (PBAoE, Ally +Regeneration, +Dam)(Ranged AoE, Extreme DoT(Energy), Foe -End, -Recovery)(Ranged AoE Foe -Res(All), -DEF)
    • Helpgful for AVs and GMs
• Recluse's Victory Minigame: Recluse's Victory Zone Control
  • https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Pillbox
  • Take on Signature Heroes/Villains

 

Changing the level ranges removes access the temps and accolades for those level characters. I would hazard that the temps and accolades were designed for those level ranges.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Terius said:

What do you folks think! I'd love to see these unloved zones get some sunlight, thanks for reading!

 

We could make RV the Temporal Warrior zone and the others regular PvP. If a regular PvPer wanted to take on the Temporals, they could head to RV also and test their skills.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[Kataklysm]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

We could make RV the Temporal Warrior zone and the others regular PvP. If a regular PvPer wanted to take on the Temporals, they could head to RV also and test their skills.

 

Do people actually use these zones often though? I and many others have often found them ghost towned. a vast majority of the time. also you referenced RV and I specifically said these changes aren't aimed to affect RV in any way. that stays the same. 
 

• Temp: Shivan Shard Summon Shivan Decimator (5 charges) 
  if the enemies in the zone are fixed to scale to 50 these pets should lose their level specific nature as well? but, I thought that power worked regardless of level so, if the mobs are eventually fixed to scale with the zone to 50, it shouldn't be an issue because the enemies would be properly scaled at that point. I didn't think about that.
• Siren's Call Minigame: Battle for Siren's Call
  this would function normally with the level 50 scaling once the affected mobs in the zone where adjusted to scale to 50
• Warburg Minigame: Launch the Warburg Rocket
  Same situation as before

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Troo]

8 minutes ago, Terius said:

Do people actually use these zones often though? I and many others have often found them ghost towned. a vast majority of the time.

 

They are ghost towns for PvP.

For the badges and temps, they do get used. Data mining from the HC team would provide more accurate information.

 

I have a character that pretty much stays in Siren's and I play them maybe 20% of the time.

 

[edit] There are other non-pvp zones which get under used. It was proposed a couple pages ago by a poster to use one of them as a special PvP zone where rules could be changed rather than changing all PvP zones.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[Kataklysm]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

They are ghost towns for PvP.

For the badges and temps, they do get used. Data mining from the HC team would provide more accurate information.

 

I have a character that pretty much stays in Siren's and I play them maybe 20% of the time.

That being said if the mobs scale to 50 does that not solve the issue? also if you're using it as a PvE zone at low level. isn't that sort of counter intuitive to it's nature as a PvP zone, designed to house and accommodate PvP first? technically speaking currently it scales you up or down to the enforced level. so if you're lower level wouldn't it just push you up to level 50 like when you're 20 but it pushes you to 25 in BB

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Rudra]

Spectral Pirates and Shivans don't scale to 50. The Shivans range from 15-25 for example. I'm pretty sure the Warriors and Sky Raiders don't scale to 50 either. So at least those 4 groups would have to have mobs added or fixed to scale that high. And if the mobs aren't already scaled for the zone, they are no threat to the players. Those may be PvP zones, but the mobs in the zone are part of the challenge. Not saying this as argument. Just saying it will take time.  For mob-less PvP, the arena is the only place I know that is intended for that.

[Troo]

17 minutes ago, Terius said:

That being said if the mobs scale to 50 does that not solve the issue?

 

which issue?

[Kataklysm]

  

13 minutes ago, Troo said:

which issue?

Quote

Besides badges and badges for accolades there are fun mini games, temps, challenges, enemy groups for hunting, and interactions. Some which are not found in other zones.

 

the issue regarding PvE things being affected negatively by the zone caps changing. with the mobs adjusted nothing changes but the enforced level. the mobs would be fixed to scale properly to 50 in the -full- implementation of this idea.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Troo]

21 minutes ago, Terius said:

with the mobs adjusted nothing changes but the enforced level.

 

Ah, I see.

 

Yes, at first that might seem the case. You solved making the mobs level 50 for your preference but have introduced another issue.

Think to when you level up a character; power, 2 slots, power, 2 slots.. and it goes on until level 31 where characters begin getting 3 slots. And then is switches to power, 3 slots, 3 slots, power.

 

If you are not following what I am saying:

• Putting a 20, 30, or 40 in a zone with a 50 that is fully slotted is never going to be fair do to added powers, slots, set bonuses.. unless gimping the 50.
• Much less a fully slotted 50 with an Alpha slot or worse yet full max Incarnates.
• Putting a 20, 30, or 40 in a zone with mobs that are designed for 50s is equally problematic. Even if the player is technically a 50, they aren't.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Troo

[Kataklysm]

49 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Spectral Pirates and Shivans don't scale to 50. The Shivans range from 15-25 for example. I'm pretty sure the Warriors and Sky Raiders don't scale to 50 either. So at least those 4 groups would have to have mobs added or fixed to scale that high. And if the mobs aren't already scaled for the zone, they are no threat to the players. Those may be PvP zones, but the mobs in the zone are part of the challenge. Not saying this as argument. Just saying it will take time.  For mob-less PvP, the arena is the only place I know that is intended for that.

Like I pointed out to troo that wouldn't be an issue in the final implementation. only temporarily if it where implemented the easy way now and fixed later. assuming people don't mind it done that way. Also thanks for the feedback this was sort of the conversation I was looking to better engage here
 

25 minutes ago, Troo said:

Putting a 20, 30, or 40 in a zone with a 50 that is fully slotted is never going to be fair unless gimping the 50.

Much less a fully slotted 50 with an Alpha slot or worse yet full max Incarnates.

The question within this post is was enforcing it to be at lower level ever good for PvP. it has never been fair if a 20 went up against a 50 in BB. you had the illusion of chance, but that's where the question loops around. should we adjust the zone levels since nobody is really interested in the PvP restrictions at the low levels. vs RV being pretty used at level 50.

Since the zones are FOR PvP, I think their PvP functionality, and normalizing/universalizing the build behavior of PvP across the zones, is better for growing the meta around zone PvP. especially if addressing it's issues to be balanced later is a goalpost here. I did reference this as a baby step, and a not -overly- complex one at that.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Terius

[Troo]

IF moving all the temps and badges elsewhere could be done, the proposal would still be taking activities from those level ranges.

 

As to "the zones are FOR PvP", I'm sure someone has made a more eloquent argument than I could which is close to irrefutable.

So, I'm not gonna try other than to say, in my opinion, these are Hazard Zones were PvP activities can take place. I don't glibly dismiss 90% of the game for 10%.

[Kataklysm]

14 minutes ago, Troo said:

IF moving all the temps and badges elsewhere could be done, the proposal would still be taking activities from those level ranges.

 

As to "the zones are FOR PvP", I'm sure someone has made a more eloquent argument than I could which is close to irrefutable.

So, I'm not gonna try other than to say, in my opinion, these are Hazard Zones were PvP activities can take place. I don't glibly dismiss 90% of the game for 10%.

 I don't dismiss either, I prefer bloody bay be made level 30 actually and the others bumped up. in the two 50 zones, these activities would still be available, just more -risky- Exciting! and I imagine even scaled to 50 the enemies wouldn't be much harder. would require testing.

[Glacier Peak]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

So, I'm not gonna try other than to say, in my opinion, these are Hazard Zones were PvP activities can take place. I don't glibly dismiss 90% of the game for 10%.

🤨

 

PvP zones are PvP zones. That is an incontrovertible fact regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not. I screenshotted some in-game messages for you in case you didn't believe me.

 

 

 

Message before entering Recluse's Victory via Pocket D manhole:

 

Upon entering Bloody Bay, Siren's Call, Warburg, or Recluse's Victory:

[Glacier Peak]

11 hours ago, Terius said:

Doesn't making all of them 50 make them harder then? or at the very least change nothing about their difficulty. since they're -still under the same DR values.- as this isn't a call to remove DR's just to raise the enforced levels in bb/ sc/ wb to 50 from 25/ 30/ 38 or 30 /50 /50 

I guess that's one way to look at it. But fighting at level 50 gives me access to a lot more powers and enhancement set bonuses.

[Troo]

17 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

🤨

 

PvP zones are PvP zones. That is an incontrovertible fact regardless of whether you choose to believe it or not. I screenshotted some in-game messages for you in case you didn't believe me.

 

 

 

Message before entering Recluse's Victory via Pocket D manhole:

 

Upon entering Bloody Bay, Siren's Call, Warburg, or Recluse's Victory:

 

..now look up the definition of Hazard Zone and search the old forums. You'll see what's been said before. 😉

[Faultline]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

IF moving all the temps and badges elsewhere could be done, the proposal would still be taking activities from those level ranges.

 

That is not part of the proposal. The change would be to set the level of characters to 50 (or 30) and scale up the critters in the zones to be relative to 50. Minigames and badges stay where they are.

 

For example: Bloody Bay sets the player to level 25. That would be bumped to 50. Critters in Bloody Bay spawn in the range 20 to 27, that would be adjusted to 45 to 52. I believe some turrets and other special critters spawn at 35 or 40, those would be bumped to 54. Everything else about the zones remains the same.

 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

Spectral Pirates and Shivans don't scale to 50. The Shivans range from 15-25 for example. I'm pretty sure the Warriors and Sky Raiders don't scale to 50 either. So at least those 4 groups would have to have mobs added or fixed to scale that high.

 

Correct, this is the main block to this proposal and the reason why Terius is asking if people care. During testing, COT and Freakshow went to 50 in Bloody Bay, but even the Banished Pantheon stayed low level because it is currently using the Striga villaindefs. Fixing all those critters would take more time than I have before the page goes live, so if players overwhelmingly want to raise the level cap, it'd be with many grey critters still remaining until page 5.

[Troo]

 

14 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Fixing all those critters would take more time than I have before the page goes live,

 

Thanks for the reply. I touched on some pitfalls of up leveling existing zones. There are likely more.

 

Have you talked to the HC team about this or just running with it?