Thought experiment (AoE buffs/debuffs/controls/damage)

[Luminara]

AoEs of all kinds work exactly like single-target abilities.  They have higher endurance costs, some have lower base hit chances, but they all function just like single-target powers.  They have predesignated numbers which are applied on a hit.

 

What if, instead, they had a maximum total for their effects, and the more targets in the AoE, the more spread out the final value?

Example:  I throw a Fire Ball at a spawn of 10.  The game takes the power's maximum damage and divides it by 10, applying that final number to each critter hit.

 

Example:  I have 16 targets inside my debuff.  The game takes the power's maximum debuff value and divides it by 16, applying that final number to each critter hit.

 

There are some immediate pros and cons evident in this.  The fewer enemies you're facing, the stronger your ability, so clearing the trash from a spawn quickly would bring "added value" to AoEs.  On the other hand, the more enemies you're facing, the more likely you are to need stronger values but not being able to reach them without teammates/pets/strategy.

 

Noodle it.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Luminara

[DoctorDitko]

This seems eminently reasonable, and reflects reality -- there are only so many bullets in a spray, and if your buddy takes one, that's one fewer for you. *

But I don't think it would add fun to the game.

 

 

 

* Unless you're fighting Deadpool, mister "I only have 12 bullets, so you're gonna hafta share!"

[InvaderStych]

16 minutes ago, Luminara said:

What if, instead, they had a maximum total for their effects, and the more targets in the AoE, the more spread out the final value?

 

It's an interesting idea. Straight division by number of targets might be a pretty far bridge though - base dmg +/- a function of the number of targets is probably more reasonable in mechanical terms.

 

Otherwise big damage nukes with a divisor of 1 would become hard target erasers as dividing them by their target count to result in something that looks like current damage levels per target would net some fairly large totals.  At the extreme end just multiply the current damage by the current max targets to estimate the result. Divide that by two if the metric is "Current damage at the midpoint of target count, more damage below that, less damage above that" and it is still some big numbers against a single target.

 

I dig it, conceptually, though and would definitely be into experimenting with the idea should it be feasible enough to warrant testing.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

It's an interesting idea. Straight division by number of targets might be a pretty far bridge though - base dmg +/- a function of the number of targets is probably more reasonable in mechanical terms.

 

Otherwise big damage nukes with a divisor of 1 would become hard target erasers as dividing them by their target count to result in something that looks like current damage levels per target would net some fairly large totals.  At the extreme end just multiply the current damage by the current max targets to estimate the result. Divide that by two if the metric is "Current damage at the midpoint of target count, more damage below that, less damage above that" and it is still some big numbers against a single target.

 

I dig it, conceptually, though and would definitely be into experimenting with the idea should it be feasible enough to warrant testing.

 

I'd expect the default difficulty to determine the base numbers.  Full effects against three targets, lower per-target numbers as the target total increased, higher per-target numbers when below three targets (but not double or triple).  So against a standard spawn of three minions, that Fire Ball would deal its base damage on each target, but in a spawn of one lieutenant or boss and one minion, it would deal 1.1 or 1.25 times the damage per target, and in a spawn of 10 critters, it would deal 0.1 or 0.2 times the damage on each critter (divisors/multipliers presented for demonstration purposes).  This would present players with interesting choices.  Use the AoE immediately, or cut the spawn down some first?  Bring more AoE to blitz spawns, or bring more single-target to take down several easy targets before popping AoEs?  As it would also apply to debuffs and buffs, it would vastly increase the value of having more than one debuffer/buffer.  We wouldn't be neutering entire spawns with one toggle debuff or buff any more, we'd need multiple players working in concert.

 

For status effects, I think it'd be better to vary the duration rather than the magnitude in this application, as it would otherwise render those AoE controls all but useless if they were only applying mag 1 or less on every critter in a spawn.  That would obviate controller/dominator input at all game levels, whereas varying the duration of the control would have the opposite effect, making multiple controllers/dominators much more wanted, rather than making one all any team needs.

 

An interesting side effect of this would be the obviation of target caps.  If a player wanted to herd and nuke a dumpster filled with 300 critters, he/she'd be doing so with AoEs which deal 0.3% base damage with each attack.  I believe the target caps would have to remain if this were how AoEs worked, though, to prevent players from unintentionally devaluing their own effects to the point of uselessness.  They wouldn't be necessary to control player activity, but keeping them would ensure that the stats on powers never dropped below a specific number (presuming no debuffs were active on the player character).

 

Of course, one of the negatives of this would be how it impacts AoE-heavy builds.  Most of my builds rely on AoE usage (i really hate fighting three enemies and beating them down one at a time, it's much more delightful to knock the stuffing out of 10+ simultaneously).  Farming builds would suffer.  We'd all have to shift to more single-target oriented approaches to reduce spawn size before popping our PBAoEs on melee characters, rather than rely on PBAoEs to clear the trash while we hammer on the bosses.  That's a lot of respecs and a lot of angry people.  On the other hand, it does also bring more purpose and utility to various melee archetypes, as it creates a need.  There wouldn't be any more teams where one player runs to every spawn and decimates it, then leaves while the other players clean up the leftovers.  It'd take multiple players working in concert, as with debuffs/buffs/controls, to efficiently perform the same activity, so there'd likely be as many happy players as displeased players.

 

As with my other thought experiment thread, this is just for discussion purposes.  It's too vast a change for the game at this point in its life.  The time for this would've been when Cryptic was looking for solutions to dumpster diving and City of Statues, at the very latest.

[America's Angel]

Melt Armor doing 480% -res vs a single target is probably a bad idea.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

Melt Armor doing 480% -res vs a single target is probably a bad idea.

I dunno, I'd kind of like to see that applied to a level 1 minion and see if I can coax a gib out of the graphics engine.

[Uun]

It makes more sense with weapon damage than it does with elemental damage. If there's a fire, anybody in it is going to get just as burnt, whether its 5 people or 10. Same goes for things poison gas or radiation. There's no diminishing return if more people enter the area.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Melt Armor doing 480% -res vs a single target is probably a bad idea.

Why?

 

It would make Melt Armor worth actually using on AVs and GMs.

[Black Zot]

29 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Why?

 

It would make Melt Armor worth actually using on AVs and GMs.

 

Well for starters there's no guarantee the game engine can even handle a -res value that big ....

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Melt Armor doing 480% -res vs a single target is probably a bad idea.

 

Pretty certain I recall all -Res being capped at -300%.

 

But that wouldn't be how it would function under this system, anyway.  It would never go that high.  As I previously stated, it would have a set percentage factored for the base difficulty settings, and a formula which modified it according to the number of targets in the AoE.  Using the defender value in this example, that would mean a spawn with three minions would have same current 30% -Res imposed if Melt Armor were used.  If the player increases the base difficulty, or joins a team, or just herds up more than one spawn, and uses Melt Armor on a larger number of targets, there would be a corresponding decrease in the -Res percentage.  Going the other direction, if the player has only a single target in the AoE, the percentage would be multiplied by a fraction, such as the 1.1 or 1.25 I posited in my last post.

 

A small fraction increase to reflect the variance introduced with the target scaling.  1.1x, or 1.25x, or some other tested and acceptable multiplier of the base percentage, not 16x.

[TheZag]

For me it would be more of a if you are closer to the center of the blast or closer to the origin of a cone would take more damage.  An enemy doesnt get hit by more if there are less enemies around,  a grenade is less deadly the further you are from the origin of the blast.  This only applies to explosion type AoE though. 

 

Rain ones would have the same effectiveness throughout.  And there are some others like dark melee that absorb from foes,  i could see ones like that doing more damage if its a single target and the damage being spread out if more enemies are hit.

 

If it were to be implemented,  i would think half of max targets should take damage equal to how it is now.  And as targets are fewer,  damage would increase up to 2 times of normal against a single enemy.  Approaching max targets would drop damage to 1/2 of normal.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by TheZag

[KC4800]

7 hours ago, TheZag said:

For me it would be more of a if you are closer to the center of the blast or closer to the origin of a cone would take more damage.  An enemy doesnt get hit by more if there are less enemies around,  a grenade is less deadly the further you are from the origin of the blast.  This only applies to explosion type AoE though. 

 

Rain ones would have the same effectiveness throughout.  And there are some others like dark melee that absorb from foes,  i could see ones like that doing more damage if its a single target and the damage being spread out if more enemies are hit.

 

If it were to be implemented,  i would think half of max targets should take damage equal to how it is now.  And as targets are fewer,  damage would increase up to 2 times of normal against a single enemy.  Approaching max targets would drop damage to 1/2 of normal.

 

Sounds like what splash damage tries to mimic already. I do like the OP idea though, sounds interesting.

[Snarky]

Interesting concept to me.  But I think applied with an overly broad brush

 

Think of a fire AoE.  It does the same FIRE to everyone in the area.   I do not care if 100000000 ants cram into the area they all take the same fire damage.  
 

Maybe some mystical power drawn from a certain talisman would only have so much juice to deliver….much like an electric battery… and therefore having 8 bodies each would get 1/8 the effect.  Wait? Is that how electric charge works irl?  Or does each act as a resistor and get the full brunt? Lol

 

But in general just too broad a change.  Also to late to reinvent AoE.  
 

Maybe an interesting idea for a future powerset.  Would make ST on AVs mich more powerful once you clear the trash