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Fixing Symphony Control


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First off kudos on the animations and sounds. Very well done. That stated, I'm also a big fan of cones, but having basically all cones does cause some issues and limits a very narrow field of playstyle, and the set having all but one of the aoe that does that, gets super royally screwed when the mobs aren't perfectly lined up within the cones. This is especially noticeable on small maps, and maps with obstacles, like stairs and corners.

 

The set also, has a noticeable lack of a pseudopet, which helps when you're held, and if the mob isn't properly layed out so it can nab some newcomers into the field.

 

To start, the cones should really be all the same, which most are, but that immobilize one does frill it a bit.

 

The power itself, is tougher as a cone, same with dark, cause it can get a bigger area which keeps mobs spread out more, especially if they end up not being in the control cones too. They're fairly deep, and narrower too, which makes it harder if you have any skills you want to use in melee too in the support, or especially all the pbaoe and melee attacks on doms. It also, very noticeably needs to be almost instant-hit so they don't move around before they are immobilized, especially given the range issue on cones, it's slower to hit the ones in the back, and you can't just move in closer like you can with a TaoE to make it hit faster (like upthrust's issue).

 

The fear and sleep cones as well, tend to have too few damage to bother with outside of using the sets with procs, which kind of lends issues as well, especially the sleep which all but is guaranteed with this set's playstyle to be useless. Hence the -damage sure, but honestly all aoe sleeps, should really be mag 4 and do -damage to account for that fact. So they either, fully shut down a mob, so you can set up, cause the sleep is useless afterwards, and then the -damage plays during actual combat.

 

The confuse, is also kinda in a really weird spot, because of  the damage, it's almost too low to do enough, but also makes it so you can't use it without notifying the mob too. Now granted with the pet, this isn't terrilbe on super hard enemies cause the dot actually matters, but in most play, it's still well, just awkward and ineffective how it's layed out.

 

So with all that in mind, to fix and round out the set:

 

Tier 1: Melodic Binding: it's fine, would say to have it animate just a little faster, at least in the 1-1.2s timeframe.

 

Tier 2: Hymn of Dissonace: It's fine as is.

 

Tier 3: Aria of Stasis: It's hit should be almost instant. Adding -fly would be useful as well.

 

Tier 4: Impassioned Serenade: This power is in an awkward spot easily. Can't use without causing aggro, and using for damage, usually means you're also using the hold on the enemy to get containment, and the confuse then does nothing. I think it would best suit the power to at least give it a small aoe, not like a whole mob one, but enough to do damage to those around it, maybe about 10ft.

 

Tier 5: Dreadful Discord: There are a number of ways to tweak this power but it definitely needs something more. Starting off it feels a bit slow and should have it's cast time reduced to around 1.5-1.67s. It's damage doesn't match up to Terrify, and it lacks the -to hit like fearsome stare has as well. I'd propose to give it a guaranteed knockdown chance to use as an opener, and lower its recharge down to 20-30 seconds, and can lower it's fear duration a little as well as a result, and lower it's end cost ever so slightly. This way you can spam the power more often, and for what the fear doesn't do, the knockdown is useful as well. It also lines up the damage to be more useful in kind.

 

As mentioned earlier as well, it should be changed to the 60/60 cone of the immobilize.

 

Tier 6: Enfeebling Lullaby: It also animates way too slowly. This power, as mentioned all sleeps should have the -damage, is useful for that, but it's main factor SHOULD be it's sleep effect, but is really off with the rest of the set, which pretty much demands spamming in the cone area, and the pet also does not mesh well with that. On top of that, it's  damage is also too low to bother with, and is only really worth it to try and proc the power with more set options. I'd much rather it have another secondary effect like -defense that you could proc with a damage proc and achilles etc.

 

Since this power also meshes terribly with the spamming of  the rest of the set, and does not help with the big issue of the set which is when they get close by, or not perfectly in your cone fields, would be much better overall as a ranged aoe, but would be best to suggest a ranged low endurance enemy toggle aoe. This way it's kind of like static field, where it can proc multiple times through the fight, but also lets the -damage continue to work as well for when the sleep becomes essentially useless.

 

I could see it also being instead, a melee aoe toggle similar to arctic  air. That way whatever gets close to you, has a good chance to sleep and -damage, since you can't really aoe them with anything else on the set except the aoe hold, which we all know given it's recharge is really the ultimate last resort. The -damage also, isn't a required debuff for the mob itself, but to make the sleep better, so it shouldn't be focused on to try to maximize it on the mob, but rather give the power benefit. Given this, I'd say that's the best recourse for the power, as a pbaoe toggle. It would also mesh well with the pet, giving the pet it's own sleep toggle to help protect it from melee stuff.

 

Tier 7: Confounding Chant: I will update when i get there in one more level, but as the damage reads, only when the target is awake for the damage? If this is the case gives a MUCH bigger push for that sleep to instead be the pbaoe toggle and not the cone. Otherwise the power mostly seems fine besides also needing to be the same cone as the immobilize of 60degrees/60feet.

 

Tier 8: Chords of Despair: This is your standard aoe hold. The only thing I would suggest to change would be to make it pbaoe instead of a ranged targetted aoe. For those "oh crap" moments when they're around you can you can't hit them with your cones, and if the sleep becomes that pbaoe toggle, when they have DOT's on them, like from the stun, or teammate attacks etc.

 

Tier 9: Reverberant: This is the biggest question i have. It seems mostly fine, but it reads that it copies your attacks. I would assume that this means it only attacks as you do, with the same one. This has an issue where you have to get all the attacks to really maximize it, Isn't clear if it only hits your targets, and I've had a friend try to test it and say it just copies WHAT you have as attacks, but not actually by doing them when you do them.

 

If it truly copies what/when you do, then the issue is you having to get the powers, but has the upside of benefitting from you boosting them up with damage, rech etc. But also means it won't attack to save you if you're mezzed (where that sleep toggle on it would really be useful too unless it would also suppress on the pet if yours does"

 

If it just uses the powers you get, but doesn't copy them. Mechanically nice, but then doesn't get the benefit of powers you don't get, forcing you to basically take all the powers..

 

Edit: forgot to mention the cone sizes on the fear/stun. The sleep as well if it doesn't get changed to the pbaoe sleep toggle, which really is the main move the set needs as far as a power rework IMO. It also would help out doms even more by giving them something to use and help make safer when they have to go in melee.

Edited by WindDemon21
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TLDR Main Takeaways:

 

1: Normalize the cones to match the cone immob. Causes less issues with use, slightly shorter range but wider angle means it's easier for those WITH melee stuff to go in, and back out and use.

 

2: Big Important change: Cone sleep changed to melee aoe toggle similar to AA. Unlike AA which you want to always be in melee for, as a mainly sleep power (assuming as well the damage would go away it did as now a toggle) it is there to help the player take care of some enemies that get too close on a consistent basis (aoe hold rech too long) providing some personal protection where all the cones can't handle up close, but with the sleep nature, not something you want to go in FOR the power, especially within the context of the same set, where you'll still want to stay at range for all the good cone skills and damage.

 

This is probably the number one main change to the set I'd suggest as it's current form offers next to nothing besides it's -damage (which it can keep but only melee), and procability for damage procs, which shouldn't be the main intent of the power, and all the other cones can do as well anyway.

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4 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Why didn't you post this during Beta? 

I wish I would have. I was busy starting a new job and fighting on other threads that I was exhausted when it came to doing more. Though that doesn't mean they couldn't still fix this.

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And I really REALLY hope they do. The cone sleep is really just a damage debuff, it's sleep is really mainly useless, and shoudln't factor the cone anyway. Either your spam wakes them up anyway, or it stops the damage from the stun which is also bad. Which testing shows that it actually doesn't stop the damage, which again, also makes the sleep portion useless. The sleep turning to the pbaoe toggle is not only the best change for the set, (25ft radius mag 3, less end cost than AA/CC/EA since it's sleep instead of a harder control so around .28end/sec, 2s pulse time, 4s base duration, similar to how static field stats work, but pbaoe toggle), but there is also a very good animation they could use for it: A bunch of floating music notes around the caster, would look pretty sweet when done right, or even/also a G-clef bar lining the outer edge like entangling aura has with vines!

 

And of course, making the cones the same as the cone immob, for obvoius reasons listed above, this is honestly really weird they even went live with this not lining up properly.

 

Then aoe hold pbaoe for other said obv reasons, and a couple animation speed ups and small aoe for the confuse. All pretty solid, aoe for confuse small enough to OP anything. Biggest change in the cone sleep, but rest are fairly small tweaks that really help round the set out better.

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Thought also as a unique bonus, and as to not draw aggro too, that it would flag as not-noticeable. Similar to mass hypnosis, they would only hear a faint lullaby, kind of like the pied piper, where they wouldn't know where it's coming from if you're stealthed. Obviously as the pbaoe toggle, the damage would be removed which is fine, and would still do the -damage. This would be a really fun and unique use to the power, and as stated, most importantly help the set somewhat control things that get too close that don't fit into your cones, and nab some enemies that are around objects when you cast them etc.

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Regarding the confuse, the power is also bugged and even 5 stacked isn't confusing some enemies, enemies i've tested with the illusion Deceive which did confuse the same enemy in perez park, level 8 skull boss. Regarding the aoe, it would be small, 10ft radius to help nab those that also get missed around the area of  the cone. The damage would only go to the single target however, but the confuse would be the aoe.

 

As it is now, it's seeming like I will be shelving symphony control very shortly until these are hopefully addressed. It's just too limited, and needs some fixes as I've mentioned in this thread. Hopefully this being their new "baby" set, they pay close attention to it as it's just gone live, and also fix this confuse bug when hopefully granting a small radius aoe to the confuse as well.

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I tested Symphony/Trick Arrow heavily on beta and I have 50+ toon. Just saying this so, you know I am not talking from theory.

 

Enfeebling Lullaby and Chords of Despair: I absolutely do not want these changed into a melee range powers. One of the best things about Symphony is that it is entirely ranged. Range provides a great deal of safely for squishy ATs like Controllers and Dominators.

 

The pet behavior is unique, but it has all the issue of pets in COH alas. AI is dumb and will always be iffy. A default attack would be nice, if nothing is queued.

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8 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I tested Symphony/Trick Arrow heavily on beta and I have 50+ toon. Just saying this so, you know I am not talking from theory.

 

Enfeebling Lullaby and Chords of Despair: I absolutely do not want these changed into a melee range powers. One of the best things about Symphony is that it is entirely ranged. Range provides a great deal of safely for squishy ATs like Controllers and Dominators.

 

The pet behavior is unique, but it has all the issue of pets in COH alas. AI is dumb and will always be iffy. A default attack would be nice, if nothing is queued.

I could see that asbout the aoe hold, i'd be fine with it as the ranged aoe, provided the sleep being now the pbaoe toggle. If to you, that means its' the one skippable power in the set, then like all sets that's fine as it really should have one. But again, talking from experience, not theory, it's full cones just leaves it far too vulnerable when things get close and not within your cones. The sleep being that pbaoe toggle is the set defining fix to help it out in that regard. The cone version, is next to useless for its actual sleep and easily should be noted for that change.

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22 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Enfeebling Lullaby and Chords of Despair: I absolutely do not want these changed into a melee range powers. One of the best things about Symphony is that it is entirely ranged. Range provides a great deal of safely for squishy ATs like Controllers and Dominators.

Again, until they get close to you, and then you're royally screwed, where every other set has something to combat this. i'm 100% fine with the aoe hold being ranged as long as this sleep toggle becomes a reality.

 

Edit: When I originally mentioned the pbaoe hold, it was before realizing the effectiveness of the sleep changing to that pbaoe toggle. I'd prefer it stay the ranged aoe as long as that change would go through for the ability to use at both ranged or nearby you. The pbaoe nature would be more beneficial if it was the only one, but with that sleep toggle, it would be fine as is.

 

And again, if for your symph/ta that means its the one power you skip, that's fine. Lots of other control sets still consider their aoe sleep the most skippable power. But for MANY other combos, and pretty much ALL doms, this would be a vast improvement to the power and control set.

Edited by WindDemon21
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53 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Again, until they get close to you, and then you're royally screwed, where every other set has something to combat this. i'm 100% fine with the aoe hold being ranged as long as this sleep toggle becomes a reality.

 

Edit: When I originally mentioned the pbaoe hold, it was before realizing the effectiveness of the sleep changing to that pbaoe toggle. I'd prefer it stay the ranged aoe as long as that change would go through for the ability to use at both ranged or nearby you. The pbaoe nature would be more beneficial if it was the only one, but with that sleep toggle, it would be fine as is.

 

And again, if for your symph/ta that means its the one power you skip, that's fine. Lots of other control sets still consider their aoe sleep the most skippable power. But for MANY other combos, and pretty much ALL doms, this would be a vast improvement to the power and control set.

I take  both sleeps, Lullaby and Poison Gas Arrow

 

People forget about the -20% damage on Lullaby. Stack with PSA -40% -damage and you solo just about anything.

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3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I take  both sleeps, Lullaby and Poison Gas Arrow

 

People forget about the -20% damage on Lullaby. Stack with PSA -40% -damage and you solo just about anything.

I was 100% thinking about that as well when considering what support I wanted to play with it. It should also 100% not be part of the reason for the set to keep it as a cone sleep versus the pbaoe sleep toggle for reasons I've already mentioned. If that was your concern you could still go into melee with the sleep toggle to debuff them with that -damage. But for nearly every other combo, either giving the set a skippable power, or using it for its intended use of sleeping those around you that get too close where your cones can't hit you, it's a no brainer.

 

Also, you must not have played a TA defender yet, PGA is already 50% -damage, so not much further off. I get synergies, and like i said that was one reason I considered TA if I haven't done so many recently, but that should not consider into the actual use of the power for it's main use as a sleep. (which you can still do, you'd just have to decide to melee versus using the cones, or use the cones, then go in melee if your main desire is to synergize the -damage. (and just don't spam the cones, it's a trade-off).

 

That said, one other thing that really seems to lack on symph, is the lack of secondary effects. The really only "effect" is minimal damage on each power, but having an actual debuff on most (like I mentioned for the cone fear, weaker damage than terrify, and no -to hit like fearsome, leaves it far behind, why it should have a shorter recharge and a knockdown to give it more flare) would help the set out a bit more as well.

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1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

I was 100% thinking about that as well when considering what support I wanted to play with it. It should also 100% not be part of the reason for the set to keep it as a cone sleep versus the pbaoe sleep toggle for reasons I've already mentioned. If that was your concern you could still go into melee with the sleep toggle to debuff them with that -damage. But for nearly every other combo, either giving the set a skippable power, or using it for its intended use of sleeping those around you that get too close where your cones can't hit you, it's a no brainer.

 

Also, you must not have played a TA defender yet, PGA is already 50% -damage, so not much further off.

Haha. I have one of the most popular TA/DP builds in the defender forum. Haha.

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7 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Haha. I have one of the most popular TA/DP builds in the defender forum. Haha.

Then you know, it's nice, but focused for the power itself versus its initial sleep use it should not be argued upon.

 

And yes i love TA defenders. My ta/elec is just gross, with the drains as well and 13 heal procs lol.

 

But again, not fixing the power because of one combo, that also could still use the -damage anyway if they wanted, versus making it fit into the set better and actually using the sleep factor, is a bad reason to halter progress of the power and set.

 

I would gladly, even on symph/ta, lose the cone debuff of it, for it to play better with other sets, and still be able to use its actual sleep toggle for when they surround you and you cant use your cones,. (Or choose to enter melee to still be able to use the damage debuff after the initial cones if that's your main concern)

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On the pet again too, I haven't gotten to it, but I know it uses your skills, either the set, or what you actually get I don't know, but I know that means it's like all cones. Cones, which are notoriously bad on pets because they are hard to set up, and even worse on pets you can't command because you can't tell them where to go. Now if the main cones were made to the 60/60 like aria of stasis, this would help the pet out a lot too, but in this regard, having the cone sleep changed to the pbaoe sleep toggle, would also help out even more in the sense that the pet would get it, so where it may not be able to use the cones effectively as well, at least it would have that toggle on to help sleep mobs near it and do more -damage.

 

And on what I was saying about the lack of secondary effects on the powers, that -damage, like sonic's -resist, could honestly even be on all the powers and just a smaller amount. It would make total sense too, and benefit both you wanting it in the cone, and it being in the sleep as a pbaoe toggle.

 

I can say another thing about the big cones and the set, is because of how it does NOT bundle them up well and keeps them spread apart with currently no helpful debuff, it also makes you extra vulnerable because you're getting far more aggro than other sets because you're hitting a big spread out mob, where others can only hit part of the mob. Hence, especially with spamming the cones, especially aria and the fear, it would be helpful to have the -damage be in all of the attacks.

 

Tthe single target ones maybe not as needed, but in the aoes it definitely should. 10% in the immob and 10% in the fear even would suffice mostly, and 10% in the aoe hold for how rarely it's used, and that same 20% in the sleep, since it's now a pbaoe toggle, it would not as often be stacking with the cone'd mobs, so it wouldn't OP it, and the -damage, like the 2 second proc rate on the sleep, could even only last a few seconds so when you leave the mob with the aura, the -damage is already gone as well (as to prevent constant stacking of too much -damage). The -damage that would now be in the cones as well would be flagged to not stack from the same power.

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TBH too, I'd be fine with the pbaoe sleep toggle not even having the -damage, and just having that moved to the immobilize/fear, so that you're not  tempted to go in melee just for the debuff. and instead maybe adding a -speed to the pbaoe sleep toggle (again not -rech too so you don't want to use it just for the debuff, but the -speed helps to slow them down from getting too close to you before the sleep is applied)

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What if every time Reverberant is hit it let’s out a random mez on a melee aoe with Minor psi damage. Sleep/fear/confuse mag 2 , low duration 

Thanks for D-Sync Enhancements! Just wish things like Resist/End, Heal/End and Damage/Mez had a third stat that made them more viable. Suggestions - add Recharge to Ribosomes, Range to Golgis, and Slows to Peroxisomes. These changes would allow for an endurance cost/range, recharge/endurance, and slow/mez or slow/damage enhancements.

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34 minutes ago, Rejolt said:

What if every time Reverberant is hit it let’s out a random mez on a melee aoe with Minor psi damage. Sleep/fear/confuse mag 2 , low duration 

I've thought about that mechanic in general for this game. While it would be fun to have that, it would be HELL if the enemies got a reflect type power. Not sure if the code could allow it either. But with the sleep toggle, that basically fixes most of the issues on symph. It would help protect the pet too, and you, and both have enough ranged stuff. Rest comes down to your support, but for symph itself the sleep being the pbaoe toggle, and the -damage moved to immob/fear would solve most of it, and making the cones the same as the immob cone. Then last I'd say to see is a tiny aoe on the confuse (just confuse portion not damage, and it could/would be much smaller duration too like seeds or possibly even less tbh, just something to help those not-in  cone mobs (in this case with the sleep toggle, that also aren't in your melee radius, but also helps to get around corners and such where the cones miss too).

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