Are Elite Bosses too mediocre?

[dtjunkie]

The way I've been thinking about this is classifying the opposition on a 0-10 challenge scale, with 0 being minions and AVs / Heroes being a 10. I feel that on this scale Elite Bosses are about a 3. I was thinking that I would prefer EBs to be more in the 7-8 range on the scale.

 

My reason for bringing this up is that I like to solo story arcs so I can take my time and really read all the clues and contact stories etc. However, I often find it anti-climatic when I get to the end of this giant RWZ storyarc that has led me through 4 contacts and culminates in this huge battle with a Rikti Warlord and then whoa! cutscence shows up, but then I defeat the EB big baddies easily and quickly.

 

When I switch the difficulty to AV I  typically have to pull out all the tricks. The envenomed daggers (hopefully I remembered to stock up!). The inspirations. The Tier IV Lore Pet. Do I have any War Wolf Whistles left?

 

I guess I was just wondering if anyone else felt that EBs are much closer to a boss than an AV. A fight with EB Nemesis is barely more challenging than a fight with a Fake Nemesis boss. I'd like that Epic Boss fight to be , well a little more epic, but without me needing to make sure I have the perfect recipe of -regen and temp powers on hand.

 

To sum, I feel like when soloing that final boss fight I'm stuck choosing either "Can I play Daddy?" or "I am Death Incarnate" and it would be cool to have the "Bring 'em on!" option.

 

[KC4800]

For me it depends on the AT I am playing. Some EB are plenty tough for a squishy, especially sub incarnate(<lvl 45) arcs.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Agree completely.  Every now and again I throw something into Suggestions like: Can we have a challenge that is something between an EB and an AV?

[MistressOhm]

My EB hate stems from Veles.  I think with 30-odd characters going thru the KR "superadine" arc, I've managed to drop him ONCE while soloing.   

 

And no, it wasn't on a tank.  It was a Staff Fighting/SR stalker.

Edited September 23, 2022 by MistressOhm

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, MistressOhm said:

My EB hate stems from Veles.  I think with 30-odd characters going thru the KR "superadine" arc, I've managed to drop him ONCE while soloing.   

Veles is tough, but I played that arc with a mind controller once and found her was a lot easier with the Grave Knight confused.

[aethereal]

There certainly is a big gulf between an EB and an AV.  I don't know if EBs should exactly be moved up, but it would be nice if there was something in the middle so the challenge level wasn't so dichotomous.  The kind of thing that might challenge a small group of people (maybe 3-5) with levelling builds who are slotted but not 100M+ inf builds?

 

EDIT:  to expand, the specific problem is that it feels like there are lots of group power levels (be the "group" solo or small or large or whatever level) that find EBs trivial but AVs too difficult.

Edited September 23, 2022 by aethereal

[Snarky]

Depends on the EB and the content level.   When Longbow Ballistas start showing up you start looking around for inspirations, buffs, sm nucear weapons, etc.  Even when you are 50 and tricked out they are no joke.  Other EBs….depends on your AT, the terrain, etc

[dtjunkie]

I think this video also illustrates the difference between an AV and an EB 😂

 

 

[Without_Pause]

This is very dependent on who you are fighting. I do believe it was Nosferatu who humbled one of the better builds. 

[dtjunkie]

2 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

My EB hate stems from Veles.  I think with 30-odd characters going thru the KR "superadine" arc, I've managed to drop him ONCE while soloing.   

 

And no, it wasn't on a tank.  It was a Staff Fighting/SR stalker.

 

On my DPS toons I can usually get past Chernobog and Morana as AVs (my go to strategy is to use medium lucks to cap defenses) but by the time I get to Veles I always have to crank it down to EB.

[dtjunkie]

I agree that Nosferatu, Veles, and Longbow Ballistas are good examples of tougher EBs. I wish more EBs were like them.

[Frostbiter]

The Emissary of Shadows is about the only EB I ever struggled with. Veres only got me the first time, The Emissary usually gets me one or twice per character. But otherwise if EBs are too easy then step up to AVs.

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Frostbiter

[Ukase]

So...here's my thoughts: 

Certainly, as mentioned by others, not all EBs are the same. Some are easier than others, for sure. 

But what's not real clear is what level are these EBs that you find so trivial? And what AT are you using to face them? Is it the same with your defender as your brute? 

 

We can't (or maybe we can, but should we) change the EBs to make them more of an epic fight when there may be players that also like to solo who struggle with the EBs we have now. Part of the reason for the disconnect is there are still players who avoid the invention system because they find it too complex. There are also players who may not understand attack mechanics or strategy, and just run in, mash buttons and hit the hospital...over and over, in the hopes of overcoming their regen. 

Unfortunately, the burden to make an EB more challenging is on you. Consider buffing the enemies through Ouro. Or debuffing yourself. 
There's all kinds of ways to make things easier or harder. The only limit is your imagination. 

 

[dtjunkie]

53 minutes ago, Ukase said:

But what's not real clear is what level are these EBs that you find so trivial?

 

 

I find the delta between the EB version of an opponent and the AV version of the opponent to be very large no matter who or what level the opponent is. I find fighting an EB is much much much closer to fighting a boss than fighting an AV (e.g., on the difficulty scale in my OP I would have most bosses at a 2, most EBs at a 3, with AVs / Heroes at 10). Where would you put EBs? Do you feel they are closer to a 7 or 8?

 

 

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, dtjunkie said:

I find fighting an EB is much much much closer to fighting a boss than fighting an AV

 

Working as intended.  The Elite Boss category was added some time after launch so players without builds capable of soloing AVs weren't forced to seek out teams to progress.  They're "story mode AVs", intended to provide a challenge slightly above boss (hence Elite Boss), not close to AV level.  They're supposed to be a 3 or 4, not an 8.

[Neiska]

My thoughts about EBs - really depends on what you are playing. On my MMs and Crabbermind I usually turn them off, not due to any real threat of dying, just because they have so many hps it's not very efficient to focus them down. They always run off and just take too long to kill to be worth my time honestly. In the time it would take me to finish that one EB, i could have murdered two entire spawns without EBs enabled. And often enough that one EB will run off into a group that has, you guessed it, another EB. 

 

On my Tanker or Brutes? Bring em on baby. They don't run much, and I can chip away at their hps fast enough it doesn't feel like a slog or a 2-minute break between fighting groups.

 

So, it depends. I would argue they don't hit hard enough, but possibly have too much hitpoints. They aren't a challenge either way, it's mostly just a question of how long it will take to kill them and if it's worth my time or not.

[Snarky]

This never ending tromp to make the fights harder and Brutes weaker is one of the main reasons I am not logged on as much anymore.  Mayne it is the reason other people are logged on more.  But sure, dial up EBs to AV.  Enjoy

[Doomguide2005]

 

     I'm in the it very much matters which EB or AV you're talking about as well as what AT.  And then there's what level the encounter is occurring and whether it's an exemplared character or not, particulary post-Incarnate 50+ exemplared.  I've no desire to face an AV version of Biff solo on pretty much any character if for no other reason than I haven't got days to whittle his health to zero.  Besides what the hell are you going to call an intermediate rank.  Flimsy Archvillain, Lesser Archvillain or Not Quite So Super Archvillain?  Okay so maybe two of those are damn silly 🙄  But yes any upgrade/up-rank has to not leave Local Dude #6 who runs solo at -1/+0 finding them impossible to defeat at base level.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[cranebump]

Too mediocre? No. They’re just the right amount of mediocre.:-)

 

I can usually drop Veles if I go in with enough Insps. Sucks if he drags me into the fire on a melee character. I can remember back in the day fearing Nocturne, though I can’t recall whether she’s an EB.

Edited September 24, 2022 by cranebump

[aethereal]

So here's what I'd specifically propose: a difficulty setting that's called Eliter Bosses.

 

It's a binary difficulty setting that is separate from the AV/EB toggle.  It makes Elite Bosses Eliter.  This applies to any Elite Boss spawned when you're the mission owner, whether that EB is an enemy who is only spawned at the EB level, or whether they're a scaled-down AV due to the solo-EB difficulty setting.  Eliter Bosses would have something like 2x the normal EB hit points, a resistance to debuffs that's roughly half of what an AV's debuff resistance is, and, I don't know, maybe a scaled down purple triangles of doom.  Something in that general range.

 

People who are like, "No, the point of EBs is to not be that much tougher than a normal boss" can leave that setting unchecked and never see an Eliter Boss.  People who want a challenge consistently between EBs and AVs can turn the "solo AVs" difficulty OFF and the "Eliter Boss" difficult ON, and they will never face an AV, but they will face Eliter Bosses instead of EBs.  And people who want all the difficulty they can get can have solo AVs on and Eliter Boss on, and they'll face AVs when available and Eliter Bosses when AVs are not available.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

This never ending tromp to make the fights harder and Brutes weaker is one of the main reasons I am not logged on as much anymore.  Mayne it is the reason other people are logged on more.  But sure, dial up EBs to AV.  Enjoy

We all have the ability to increase our difficulty but people insist on fighting to control other peoples play. The devs seem to be on board with that. If people want their eb fights to be harder, they can. Only laziness prevents them. Or maybe thats not what they actually want. maybe make special inspirations that make the fight more difficult

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by ivanhedgehog

[Neiska]

[Black Talon]

All thanks to dtjunkie for introducing the topic, and it is something I have done internal debates about on a couple of occasions.  For the most part, I would agree with the OP thesis: the EBs can be handled with hitting Hasten, a few small insps and making sure a heal insp or two is available.  As an example, I've had multiple alts take out Maestro (Long Jack arc finale in Striga) with relatively little difficulty, specific AT not being a consideration.  The sole exceptions to this rule, as several others have suggested, are Nosferatu and Praetorian Marauder; the latter of which, actually, has been out-of-reach for all but one of my alts - Black Talon, as it turned out - and that guy had to use every insp in the book to come out on top.

 

So, again, agreement with what seems to be a majority opinion here.  I would like EBs to be something really notable to scrap against - not in the, "I'll-need-a-team-to-finish-this-one" category, but certainly something where every power, at that level, is called up for use, and the insp tray should be empty when the scrap is over.  Not sure what might have to be altered/adjusted in order to put this to work - and I'd imagine there'd be a number of Beta-level iterations that would go through trial-testing before it gets put on live - but it is something that would make the mission arc-finale scraps something to really have as a treasured and tales-around-the-campfire memory.

[biostem]

An "Elite Boss", IMO, is NOT supposed to be midway between a "regular boss" and an AV/Hero, but instead merely a step above said "regular boss".  That being said, there is definitely a difference between an AV/Hero that has been downgraded to an EB, and a :purpose-build" EB.

Edited September 24, 2022 by biostem

[Ukase]

15 hours ago, dtjunkie said:

 

I find the delta between the EB version of an opponent and the AV version of the opponent to be very large no matter who or what level the opponent is. I find fighting an EB is much much much closer to fighting a boss than fighting an AV (e.g., on the difficulty scale in my OP I would have most bosses at a 2, most EBs at a 3, with AVs / Heroes at 10). Where would you put EBs? Do you feel they are closer to a 7 or 8?

 

 

Not sure you understood my question. 
Let me try to be more clear. 

Say you're fighting this Fake Nemesis EB. What level are you, and what level is the EB? Is it -1? +3? 

If it's -1, I can definitely see it being rather trivial. 

If it's +4, if I'm on a well-built melee character, I'm most likely not worry about holds/stuns/sleeps, so really, it's just a big bag of hitpoints, no matter what level. Sometimes, there may be surrounding npcs that provide some distraction due to potential -defense or -tohit or -recovery. (or a combo of those and other negative attributes). 

The biggest challenge our volunteer staff has in finding a way to make these interactions meaningful and non-trivial, appropriately rewarding without being too demanding for the average player. 

But if I'm on my blaster, I do have to worry a bit about being mez/stun/held/slept etc. 
I have to carefully consider what inspirations are in my tray before the battle. The higher the level I am, the easier these fights are, because I can load up on appropriate inspirations, even to the point of overkill. I can use my base or AH to get enough super insps to cap my damage, toHit and resistance, with enough insps to keep them capped for another minute or so. So, yeah, an EB is trivial if I use even some of the tools at my disposal. 

And sometimes, if I'm on a particularly well-built character, it may still be trivial. But I don't worry about it because I know there are other players who find what I consider trivial to be too challenging. There's not many of these players, but more than I would have thought. Most are just kids,I suspect, newer players who still haven't figured things out, or older players who consider RotP to be a valid part of their attack chain. (or play in such a way as to make me think they believe it) And, for some, that's great fun, which is fine, just not my preference. I hate to retoggle. 

Again, it's up to us, the players to make things harder until such time our volunteer dev staff find a way to make that EB a bit more balanced between the scale of Boss and AV.