Defiler (Melee/Support AT)

[Rikis]

Defiler - A close range combatant that weakens her foes and strengthens his allies.

Primary: Melee Sets (Stalker Values - no crit)  --- Secondary: Buff/Debuff and Armor Hybrid (MM Values)

Not entirely my original idea on the secondaries.

If you want to play a support, you pretty much have to stick to range. Or go Mastermind. Or use only power pool attacks (for the lulz). Don't really care for Assault being its primary, enough Dominators stay Ranged only and the idea of this AT is for players to get in the thick of things.

 

One problem with the Defiler would be what to do with Taunt, since this AT does not want to draw attention to itself under any circumstance. Maybe replace it with Placate (with regular stealth to avoid its crit mechanic) or Power Build Up? I also have no idea what to do with its inherent, maybe something akin to Defender's Vigilance. Instead, while solo the defensive power values go up to above Brute level, below Tanker level and while teamed the secondary values to Controller level or maybe an endurance discount on the secondaries? Again, no clue.

 

The idea of the secondaries is to avoid any ally only powers and any damaging auras and as many of the damaging powers as possible. It does have to include the status protections though.

 

Examples of Secondaries:

Storm Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Charged Armor

T2 (Level 2) Gale

T3 (Level 4) Snow Storm

T4 (Level 10) Conductive Shield

T5 (Level 16) Static Shield

T6 (Level 20) Steamy Mist

T7 (Level 28) Lightning Reflexes

T8 (Level 35) Grounded

T9 (Level 38) Freezing Rain

 

Dark Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Dark Embrace

T2 (Level 2) Twilight Grasp

T3 (Level 4) Tar Patch

T4 (Level 10) Murky Cloud

T5 (Level 16) Obsidian Shield

T6 (Level 20) Shadow Fall

T7 (Level 28) Dark Regeneration

T8 (Level 35) Darkest Night

T9 (Level 38) Soul Transfer

 

Nature Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Hardened Carapace

T2 (Level 2) Regrowth

T3 (Level 4) Corrosive Enzymes

T4 (Level 10) Adaptation

T5 (Level 16) Environmental Modification

T6 (Level 20) Spore Cloud

T7 (Level 28) Lifegiving Spores

T8 (Level 35) Evolving Armor

T9 (Level 38) Wild Bastion

 

Fiery Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Fire Shield

T2 (Level 2) Warmth

T3 (Level 4) Temperature Protection

T4 (Level 10) Plasma Shield

T5 (Level 16) Consume

T6 (Level 20) Rise of the Phoenix

T7 (Level 28) Fiery Embrace

T8 (Level 35) Heat Exhaustion

T9 (Level 38) Melt Armor

 

Cold Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Frozen Armor

T2 (Level 2) Infrigidate

T3 (Level 4) Snow Storm

T4 (Level 10) Glacial Armor

T5 (Level 16) Wet Ice

T6 (Level 20) Chilling Embrace

T7 (Level 28) Hoarfrost

T8 (Level 35) Benumb

T9 (Level 38) Sleet

 

Time Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Focused Fighting

T2 (Level 2) Temporal Mending

T3 (Level 4) Time Crawl

T4 (Level 10) Focused Senses

T5 (Level 16) Practiced Brawler

T6 (Level 20) Time's Juncture

T7 (Level 28) Evasion

T8 (Level 35) Slowed Response

T9 (Level 38) Chrono Shift

 

Radiation Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Alpha Barrier

T2 (Level 2) Radiant Aura

T3 (Level 4) Radiation Infection

T4 (Level 10) Proton Armor

T5 (Level 16) Fallout Shelter

T6 (Level 20) Accelerate Metabolism

T7 (Level 28) Gamma Boost

T8 (Level 35) Enervating Field

T9 (Level 38) Lingering Radiation

 

Kinetic Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Kinetic Shield

T2 (Level 2) Transfusion

T3 (Level 4) Siphon Power

T4 (Level 10) Power Shield

T5 (Level 16) Entropic Aura

T6 (Level 20) Siphon Speed

T7 (Level 28) Inertial Reduction

T8 (Level 35) Dampening Field

T9 (Level 38) Transference

 

Trick Training -

T1 (Level 1) Ninja Reflexes

T2 (Level 2) Flash Arrow

T3 (Level 4) Glue Arrow

T4 (Level 10) Danger Sense

T5 (Level 16) Kuji-in Rin

T6 (Level 20) Poison Gas Arrow

T7 (Level 28) Acid Arrow

T8 (Level 35) Shinobi-Iri

T9 (Level 38) Disruption Arrow

 

Shield Device -

T1 (Level 1) Deflection

T2 (Level 2) Triage Beacon

T3 (Level 4) Caltrops

T4 (Level 10) Battle Agility

T5 (Level 16) Active Defense

T6 (Level 20) Acid Mortar

T7 (Level 28) True Grit

T8 (Level 35) Grant Cover

T9 (Level 38) Seeker Drones

 

Willful Efflux -

T1 (Level 1) Mind over Body

T2 (Level 2) Nullify Pain

T3 (Level 4) High Pain Tolerence

T4 (Level 10) Quick Recovery

T5 (Level 16) Indomitable Will

T6 (Level 20) World of Pain

T7 (Level 28) Heightened Senses

T8 (Level 35) Soothing Aura

T9 (Level 38) Anguishing Cry

 

[Steampunkette]

Could we swap the Primary powerset from Melee to Assault?  More character variety that way instead of yet another Melee AT.

 

Brute, scrapper, stalker, tank

Blaster, defender, corruptor

Dominator

 

Needs Moar assault!

[jack_nomind]

I'm not particularly interested in either assault primaries or armor/support hybrid secondaries on non-EATs; and less yet for both.  The traditional balance trades of CoH would make the resultant AT unable to do any job.  Ignoring those metrics gives every overlapped AT an identity crisis.

 

I'm all for a melee/support AT with a very strong identity and a good distinguishing inherent; I personally imagine something "paladin"-like, anchoring typical Support debuff toggles on themselves.  A "domscrapruptor" just seems like an attempt to change CoH into a freeform system without respect for why ATs were implemented to begin with.

[Steampunkette]

I'm not particularly interested in either assault primaries or armor/support hybrid secondaries on non-EATs; and less yet for both.  The traditional balance trades of CoH would make the resultant AT unable to do any job.  Ignoring those metrics gives every overlapped AT an identity crisis.

 

I'm all for a melee/support AT with a very strong identity and a good distinguishing inherent; I personally imagine something "paladin"-like, anchoring typical Support debuff toggles on themselves.  A "domscrapruptor" just seems like an attempt to change CoH into a freeform system without respect for why ATs were implemented to begin with.

 

Not every superhero fits into the nice clean ATs the game provides.

 

As to why ATs were implemented in the first place... meh? The game has changed so much since then that Dominator can have permadom and great defenses and Tankers can wipe out a whole enemy spawn with a giant fireball with more damage than a Blaster's Tier 9. We also created a Ranged/Defense AT that essentially functions like a tough to kill Corruptor who forgot to take any of his support powers.

 

I earnestly don't want "Freeform" character design. What I would like is new ways to play this old game we all love. All the "Main Roles" for team-based MMO combat are covered twice over at this point by "Secondary Roles" that can step over any gap they might have keeping them away.

 

The only new ways we can approach the game are to expand the powersets that exist (Adding more, which requires shitloads of art and time) or mix and match powerset types on new ATs like the powersets are Legos and we're pulling apart the house to build a spaceship.

 

Does it mean we're ignoring the "MMORPG Team Design" dynamic? Sure. But who cares? Once you get above 5 people on a team it doesn't matter what the new people are so long as they add more damage/heals/controls/whatever unless there's something your specifically lacking. Take a team of 7 characters of randomly selected ATs and it doesn't matter what the 8th one who joins is 9 times out of 10.

[nihilii]

I'll take any */support AT, but Melee seems more interesting than Assault if only because we're already got all these Ranged options for support, and Assault is half ranged.

 

(Of course, it's a valid point to say only Doms have Assault. Could be interesting to see more ATs using that. I'd love to see Assault/Pets... As in, MM primaries with the attacks swapped for something else).

[jack_nomind]

The only new ways we can approach the game are to expand the powersets that exist (Adding more, which requires shitloads of art and time) or mix and match powerset types on new ATs like the powersets are Legos and we're pulling apart the house to build a spaceship.

 

I don't think your powersets-as-legos analogy works here.  Dominators were given Assault as a means of limiting them.  Rather than being (easily) a ranged damage class with controls, a lot of their damage was put into melee despite them lacking armor or mez protection powers.  On e.g. a Defender (or Corruptor), the Assault set would similarly hamper them.  For this proposed AT the limitation of being in melee was addressed by changing the Defender-style support sets to include that armor component.  To make this a case of powersets-as-legos, it might be proposed that we instead use Assault and traditional armorless Support, with perhaps a strong Inherent justifying the higher risk playstyle.  Instead the approach seems to be to treat the powers themselves as the legos.  That's what I meant by free-form.  And it's certainly true that without a free-form system, some comic book superhero concepts are left out.

 

We do already have more archtypes that have "assault" and armor powers, of course: all four EATs work this way.  The reason I'd rather keep that approach to EATs is because their rigidity means they'll never just replace another AT the way for example "a corruptor, but with mez protection" like Melee/Ranged/Support/Armor would.  We're watching the difficulty of "X but with mez protection" balance play out right now in players expressing their dissatisfaction with the weak team identity of the Sentinel.  If they ever feel like they're doing the same damage as the Blaster, we'll see it again as people attached to their Blaster characters feel like they were foolish to play the riskier class when another one offered the same benefits.

 

For the most part, I agree that most of the roles that can or should be covered, have been already covered by existing ATs -- the sole exception is melee/support.  (There are a lot of combinations possible with pets, but pets are kind of a huge problem area for the game.)  Maybe my response to that is a bit different than yours.

[Rikis]

As far as Assault sets go, as I mentioned on the OP too many Dominators stay ranged as it is. It'd break my heart in the impossibility of this ever seeing the light of day and seeing all the Defilers staying at ranged. They should have just rolled a Defender or Corruptor. No, it'd have to be melee for the concept.

 

There are Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers.

There are also Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, and Sentinels.

Controllers tend to stay at ranged and Dominators are supposed to weave in and out of melee.

 

As far as not being a pure support secondary, if they are truly meant to be punching Nazis in the face, they will need some defenses to survive for any significant amount of time in an 8 man group. Sacrificing the ally only powers makes the most sense. Sure the sets I posted aren't all great and could easily be modified. I also threw in Shield and Traps together just for funsies.

 

If they were to make it pure support, their inherent could simply be some mez protection. After all, VEATs have a very simplistic inherent.

[Leogunner]

Could we swap the Primary powerset from Melee to Assault?  More character variety that way instead of yet another Melee AT.

 

Brute, scrapper, stalker, tank

Blaster, defender, corruptor

Dominator

 

Needs Moar assault!

 

No.

 

Assault are already hybrid sets.  Making the at both melee, ranged, buff/debuff and armor is too much for the main AT sets.

 

I'd also ammend to that that I feel those blended sets (assault, manipulation and pets) were made for their respective AT, not like the basic powersets.

 

I had this idea for an AT in the past, the main thing I suggested was to alter their buff/debuff powers to have smaller range and target cap but remain near defender levels.

[Chance Jackson]

Could we swap the Primary powerset from Melee to Assault?  More character variety that way instead of yet another Melee AT.

 

Brute, scrapper, stalker, tank

Blaster, defender, corruptor

Dominator

 

Needs Moar assault!

this

[Rikis]

Another reason to avoid assault says is so that Epic Pools have some holes to fill. They could add ranged attacks and single target CC powers. If this were to be Assault/Efflux (the Armor/Support), what would the epic/patrons be filled with? The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to keep any new support AT to melee. I'm still at a hard no for an assault/support mix.

 

As far as *this* particular AT is concerned, with Stalker defensive values and MM support values, they'd hardly be overpowered.

[Steampunkette]

Gonna touch on a few of the arguments here, lightly, but there's one that deserves some specific attention:

 

Dominators aren't particularly fragile. And giving them Melee Attacks doesn't make them more fragile.

 

Broadly speaking, every fight has two time values that determine the winner. TTK and TTD. Time to Kill and Time to Death. You die you lose, you kill you win. Suuuper simple.

 

Every Combat power in the game either increases the TTD clock (Heals, Defenses, Buffs to Healing and Defenses, Debuffs to Accuracy and Damage) or reduces the TTK clock (Damage, Defense Debuffs). Some of them do it quickly, some of them do it slowly, but by and large it's all about those two clocks.

 

Control increases the TTD clock just like heals and defenses do by reducing the amount of incoming damage. Whether it's an immobilize keeping the enemy from using it's melee attacks alongside it's ranged attacks or a hold stopping the enemy from attacking at all. The exception is Confuse, which affects both TTD and TTK.

 

Dominators use a powerful "Active Defense" system to lock down enemies and pause their damage output completely through stuns, sleeps, holds, knockdowns, fears... Rushing into melee as a Dominator isn't particularly dangerous because everyone who could hit you in melee (or most of them) can't. 'Cause they're mezzed.

 

Throwing Assault on this AT just gives them the option of remaining close for buff leashing while also picking off flyers or runners or whatever else. It might make them a hint safer now and then (When they're using Ranged Attacks exclusively) but that's the player not realizing they want to play a corruptor.

 

As to the "What about the Epic Pool Hole Filling?" question... Eh? You could hand an Assault/Efflux character pretty much any epic pool and it would round out their build by giving them some control or AoE damage (Which is part of what Dominators get since Assault focuses on ST mostly).

 

Also: Dominators shouldn't weave in and out of melee. They should stand, firmly, in melee, completely untouchable by the petrified statues of their enemies, and tear them apart while their victims watch in mute horror, unable to even look away.

[klokwerkaos]

I'm not particularly interested in either assault primaries or armor/support hybrid secondaries on non-EATs; and less yet for both.  The traditional balance trades of CoH would make the resultant AT unable to do any job.  Ignoring those metrics gives every overlapped AT an identity crisis.

 

I'm all for a melee/support AT with a very strong identity and a good distinguishing inherent; I personally imagine something "paladin"-like, anchoring typical Support debuff toggles on themselves.  A "domscrapruptor" just seems like an attempt to change CoH into a freeform system without respect for why ATs were implemented to begin with.

 

Not every superhero fits into the nice clean ATs the game provides.

 

As to why ATs were implemented in the first place... meh? The game has changed so much since then that Dominator can have permadom and great defenses and Tankers can wipe out a whole enemy spawn with a giant fireball with more damage than a Blaster's Tier 9. We also created a Ranged/Defense AT that essentially functions like a tough to kill Corruptor who forgot to take any of his support powers.

 

I earnestly don't want "Freeform" character design. What I would like is new ways to play this old game we all love. All the "Main Roles" for team-based MMO combat are covered twice over at this point by "Secondary Roles" that can step over any gap they might have keeping them away.

 

The only new ways we can approach the game are to expand the powersets that exist (Adding more, which requires shitloads of art and time) or mix and match powerset types on new ATs like the powersets are Legos and we're pulling apart the house to build a spaceship.

 

Does it mean we're ignoring the "MMORPG Team Design" dynamic? Sure. But who cares? Once you get above 5 people on a team it doesn't matter what the new people are so long as they add more damage/heals/controls/whatever unless there's something your specifically lacking. Take a team of 7 characters of randomly selected ATs and it doesn't matter what the 8th one who joins is 9 times out of 10.

 

I feel this.  More powers, less archetypes.  Powers Ideas are the future.  What isn't covered?

[Rikis]

Of course a Dominator doesn't die in melee in a big team, like you mentioned, they have active defenses in the form of control. They lock down the group and go to town, safely. And yes, a Dominator does weave in and out of melee for their cones, both attacks and crowd control powers. I've played a wide variety of Dominators, I am well used to their playstyle.

 

A melee/support wouldn't have that kind of active support. On Live, the devs mentioned that Blasters had the highest death rate. Blaster's are an AT that has a reason to go melee (their highest damaging single target attacks are meles) with no defenses.

 

The Defiler definitely needs some defense, Stalker levels are enough to make them survive in the chaos of an 8 man team while also preventing them from being able to take the alpha like a Tanker or Brute.

[Rikis]

Thinking about it, I'd replace the taunt from the melee sets and add in a power with two choices (using the Swap Ammunition or the /bio armor mechanic).

 

First, their defense powers would be at Sentinel values. Their buff powers would be between Mastermind and Corruptor strength.

 

Then the two choices would be as follows (neither of them enhanceable.)

Withstand: +Resistance, +Defense, -power effects. Increasing survivability, but lowering buffs/debuffs to MM levels.

Desecrate: +Power Effects, -res, -def. Increasing buff/debuff values to Corruptor levels, decreasing survivability.

 

 

[Hallibel]

I like the general concept of this idea, but it seems poorly thought out. The numbers are all over the place. And why not just leave it with taunt? We don't need to overly complicate things.

[Auroxis]

The simplest approach to this would be simply adding CC protection to the class's Inherent, that way you can port both the melee and support sets 1-for-1 from other classes.

 

Might sound squishy at first glance, but support sets do a good job of keeping the caster alive (with a few exceptions). Plus, Blappers would still be squishier in comparison.

[Leogunner]

The simplest approach to this would be simply adding CC protection to the class's Inherent, that way you can port both the melee and support sets 1-for-1 from other classes.

 

Might sound squishy at first glance, but support sets do a good job of keeping the caster alive (with a few exceptions). Plus, Blappers would still be squishier in comparison.

 

I definitely think you have a good point, particularly on the subject of ease of implementation but I think it's also important to consider any potential problems such an implementation could have if you're looking for simply 1-to-1 set proliferation without consideration to the concept or the balance.

 

CC is definitely a problem to consider and a Domination-esque inherent might be the simple solution for that.  But there's also the consideration that the support sets' design goals are very much different from the goals of a character that requires close combat.  Like Kinetics would probably be the worst setup for this AT as it has almost 0 sustain and a lucky 2-shot from a boss is very likely to be its fate and there's nothing its got except DPS and efficiency buffs...but you can't DPS if you're dead.  Then there are powers like Force Bubble (and you can probably pick a few from Storm Summoning pretty easily) that just don't work for someone that needs to be in melee to deal with their enemies.

 

No matter how you slice it, there won't be a 1-for-1 powerset config for this.

[Blastit]

And why not just leave it with taunt? We don't need to overly complicate things.

 

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do. A melee/support AT isn't about drawing aggro and surviving it through personal defences so a power that has as its only purpose to draw aggro and gather enemies around you in melee range would be iffy. Now, maybe someone with /Kinetics could find some utility in that... and maybe it'd be cool with an AT that's a kind of support tank... but that feels like a subtly different AT and perhaps something better left for a new EAT than a regular AT. Maybe an EAT with a melee primary and two modified secondaries?

 

Anyway.

 

 

For a melee/support AT I would toy with replacing the Taunt slot with a mez protection toggle (taken from an appropriate set to match the melee theme in question, modified as necessary) and making the inherent give a small bonus to defence and resistance per team member. An AT that is a little bit Peacebringer, a little bit the Blapper version of a Defender. Compared to Defenders they'd have worse buffs but better survivability, compared to Corruptors they'd have worse damage but better survivability.

 

I'd also try to come up with a neutral name for it. Defiler or Paladin or w/e are a bit too heavy towards either end. I don't know what, though. Skirmisher? Valiant would be a nice AT name but it's very heroic. Maybe somethign that evokes a mystic or a monk without being tied to a specific origin?

[Leogunner]

And why not just leave it with taunt? We don't need to overly complicate things.

 

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do.

 

Because it's rather antithetical to what a Stalker wants to do, i.e. go unseen.  They also have an interruptible melee ranged attack that hinges on not being hit while using it.

 

A melee/support AT isn't about drawing aggro and surviving it through personal defences...

 

Why not?  Why would that not be a viable tactic?

 

In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute.  I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

 

[Blastit]

Why not?  Why would that not be a viable tactic?

 

In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute.  I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

 

Obviously it depends on the power sets that the AT is designed around. I'm pretty sure that an /Empath wouldn't have much reason to appreciate a taunt effect while someone with /Radiation Emission could make do. Depends on what the inherent power is, too.

 

I'm assuming that, since the other ATs got plenty of sets proliferated, this AT would have most any melee and support set available to them. So giving all their primaries a power that likely only works for some of the secondaries doesn't seem like a worthwhile design goal to me. I'm also assuming that secondaries go unchanged and that primaries don't see more changes than having the taunt power swapped out for something. Going all out like for Sentinels is of course a possibility but I'm not sure that's needed to create a fun and satisfying AT that fills untapped stylistic space.

[Leogunner]

Why not?  Why would that not be a viable tactic?

 

In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute.  I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

 

Obviously it depends on the power sets that the AT is designed around. I'm pretty sure that an /Empath wouldn't have much reason to appreciate a taunt effect while someone with /Radiation Emission could make do. Depends on what the inherent power is, too.

 

I'm assuming that, since the other ATs got plenty of sets proliferated, this AT would have most any melee and support set available to them. So giving all their primaries a power that likely only works for some of the secondaries doesn't seem like a worthwhile design goal to me. I'm also assuming that secondaries go unchanged and that primaries don't see more changes than having the taunt power swapped out for something. Going all out like for Sentinels is of course a possibility but I'm not sure that's needed to create a fun and satisfying AT that fills untapped stylistic space.

 

Point taken and read the my previous post before my reply to you.  I don't think a 1-for-1 set proliferation is going to work for such an AT.  So /Empathy likely wouldn't work for a melee focused AT on the principal that you're rushing into a fight with literally 2 skills to mitigate damage to yourself (Regeneration Aura and Healing Aura).  That is guaranteed not to work.  Either those powers would have to be greatly improved for the user or something like a Empathy/Regeneration hybrid set would need to be made.

 

So the issue of making a powerset combination that isn't completely broken should be the 1st priority, not what should replace Taunt. 

[Blastit]

I was thinking that the main problem with being a melee AT is taking incidental damage and crowd control from AoE that targets the tank/main aggro magnet or simply originates from whatever you're fighting. That's why self-buff and debuff sets would be optimal and why I suggested both that the primary gets a mez prot toggle (replacing taunt because I see it as by far the most replacable power for such an AT) and that the inherent is some kind of def/res boost for each teammate you have.

 

I don't know exactly how much, I'd want it to be a relevant amount but nothing approaching a proper defensive secondary. 5-10% def and 10-20% res on a full team? The bonus wouldn't have to scale linearly, you could get the biggest chunk for the first two and then less for each extra member after that. That way you don't feel punished for ending up with a smaller team. I'm suggesting both def and res so that it synergises with whatever APP shield you pick.

 

 

The fundamental purpose of the AT would mostly be to fulfill the dark and detestable desires of anyone who wants to play a paladin. Or a Tsoo ink man. I don't see it as a true support tank because it'd be very weak to AVs since they resist debuffs so much, and that role might be better suited to something that can have support/armour hybrid sets. I'd like to find a fundamental design that'd allow for Empathy because of being the support set most closely matching an MMO cleric. Dark Miasma and Radiation Emission are already some of the strongest support sets so I don't want to design an entire AT around them. If the design overall favours them, yeah, ok, that's already the case with every support-capable AT but I'd be happy with something that just means Cold Domination etc aren't simply bad choices.

[Jeuraud]

And why not just leave it with taunt? We don't need to overly complicate things.

 

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do.

 

Because it's rather antithetical to what a Stalker wants to do, i.e. go unseen.  They also have an interruptible melee ranged attack that hinges on not being hit while using it.

 

A melee/support AT isn't about drawing aggro and surviving it through personal defences...

 

Why not?  Why would that not be a viable tactic?

 

In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute.  I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

 

 

It's not just about not doing what the AT wants to do, it's about not dying.

When the Stalker first came out, you would try to AS in a MOB group and you would die (Even when running solo.), sometimes before your attack would finish if you were doing an AS before you got your AS attack. You learned real fast not to do that, and to let somebody pull agro before you AS in a group.

 

Have you ever tried to run a Melee/Support?

You can kind of can do a Melee/Support with a Corrupter and Controller, and do a fairly descent job with a MM in bodyguard, but you have to pull from the Pools for your melee attacks... and you do not want more than a couple of MOBs on you at a time in melee. Support just cannot pick up the slack in time, and I figure even with a bit of armor this would be true. Of course I'm talking about the 1 to 50 ride, not your fully decked out 50.

 

Most Melee/Supports are no more going to Taunt then a Stalker will. You are already going to be pulling agro with your Melee Attacks, Buffs, Debuffs and Heals. Hells, your probably going to need some type of placate to not pull from the person who should be holding most of the agro, which as a support should not be you.

 

Note: I do not like the Defiler name. Even though I run mostly on the red side, I think all new ATs should be neutral in name and Defiler is to villainy for me. To bad Sentinel has already been taken, I think that would have been a good Melee/Support name.

[Leogunner]

I was thinking that the main problem with being a melee AT is taking incidental damage and crowd control from AoE that targets the tank/main aggro magnet or simply originates from whatever you're fighting. That's why self-buff and debuff sets would be optimal and why I suggested both that the primary gets a mez prot toggle (replacing taunt because I see it as by far the most replacable power for such an AT) and that the inherent is some kind of def/res boost for each teammate you have.

 

I feel that's an assed backwards approach.  So let's replace a power slottable for some effect with something that can't be slotted for its effect (mez resistance/protection) and let's put an effect into the inherent that likely needs to be enhanced to function well (defense/resistance/HP/absorb/etc) into an inherent that can't be slotted for.

 

Why not reverse it and make the inherent mez resist/protection and some kind of skill swap have your sustain?

 

 

The fundamental purpose of the AT would mostly be to fulfill the dark and detestable desires of anyone who wants to play a paladin. Or a Tsoo ink man. I don't see it as a true support tank because it'd be very weak to AVs since they resist debuffs so much, and that role might be better suited to something that can have support/armour hybrid sets. I'd like to find a fundamental design that'd allow for Empathy because of being the support set most closely matching an MMO cleric. Dark Miasma and Radiation Emission are already some of the strongest support sets so I don't want to design an entire AT around them. If the design overall favours them, yeah, ok, that's already the case with every support-capable AT but I'd be happy with something that just means Cold Domination etc aren't simply bad choices.

 

Firstly, I think the idea of the thread is to discuss what the fundamentals of the AT would be.  Is it a DPS? A high-damage support? An off-tank with debuffs? All of the above? Trying to pin it to a specific in-game NPC seems shortsighted (although it is a fact those ink men are quite annoying primarily because of their stacking debuffs).

 

Secondly, you mention Paladin as a role.  That's a class.  In fact, most Paladins in MMOs are the premiere Tanker.  So there's going to be confusion with trying to interpret the meaning there.

 

Thirdly, you mentioned Cleric.  I'm assuming you're talking about the heals of Empathy rather than what makes Empathy functionable: it's buffs.  If I'm misinterpreting this, correct me if I'm wrong.  I don't see why you can't make a hybrid Empathy/Regen set that does what Empathy does but less so and still functions as a workable Cleric type.  Here, I'll even do it for you...

 

Cleric - (NEW passive) Increases Max HP and healing received/given

1. Heal Other

2. Reconstruction

3. Recovery Aura (MODDED click) Lower team recovery for longer uptime. Something like 80% Recovery, 90sec duration 300sec recharge and arguably better than Regen's Quick Recovery at 30% recovery passive.

4. Dull Pain

5. Resilient Integration (MODDED toggle) Combines Resilience and Integration for a higher END cost.

6. Clear Mind

7. Regeneration Aura (MODDED click) Same as Recovery Aura, modded for longer uptime but less regen. Arguably worse than Instant Healing since it wouldn't be as potent burst healing.

8. Fortitude

9. Moment of Glory

 

It retains much of the utility of Empathy while arguably improving on the basics (Recovery and Regeneration Aura have too long a cooldown for too short a duration with overkill effect which hampers the usefulness of them) while leaving some uniqueness to the actual primary support Empathy and also not leaving it high and dry when it uses its other powerset (melee).

 

I think that's another thing not being considered here.  Yes, you want a new AT to have its own role but you also don't want to overshadow other roles. Consider that Defenders can ALREADY tank, they just do so in an unconventional way.  I'm merely suggesting the prospect of diverting the AT to a MORE conventional tanking method because it would help the melee set function.

 

[Leogunner]

And why not just leave it with taunt? We don't need to overly complicate things.

 

For the same reason Stalkers don't get Taunt. It just doesn't do what the AT wants to do.

 

Because it's rather antithetical to what a Stalker wants to do, i.e. go unseen.  They also have an interruptible melee ranged attack that hinges on not being hit while using it.

 

A melee/support AT isn't about drawing aggro and surviving it through personal defences...

 

Why not?  Why would that not be a viable tactic?

 

In fact, I'd argue that their taunt should be AoE like Tanker/Brute but have a weak taunt effect but severe -range debuff that's stronger than either Tanker/Brute.  I would want foes to be unable to adaquately engage my Melee/Support without getting practically in my face.

 

 

It's not just about not doing what the AT wants to do, it's about not dying.

 

That's implied.  But placate isn't about not dying (stopping 1 guy from attacking you only pauses A fight, everyone else will still shoot and kill you) but rather using the AT's mechanic during combat since, in the beginning, the only way to AS was to run away and let yourself fall back into hide.

 

When the Stalker first came out, you would try to AS in a MOB group and you would die (Even when running solo.), sometimes before your attack would finish if you were doing an AS before you got your AS attack. You learned real fast not to do that, and to let somebody pull agro before you AS in a group.

 

Nah.  Either you ran some paper thin stalkers that didn't pick up their secondary powers or you were fighting things you shouldn't be fighting.  In circumstances that are balanced (just a boss/Lt and a few minions) it's not that dangerous to AS.  In a group, it's implied there's...you know, a group.  If you can AS a team-sized spawn and easily live, then do so.  If you can't, then don't.  The same goes for any Fire Brute that doesn't have the sustain to take an alpha or a Tanker without their mez protection yet.  Outlier examples like that have no relevance to why Stalker gets Placate instead of Taunt.

 

Have you ever tried to run a Melee/Support?

 

I have.  I wouldn't categorize Controller or MM though as they have CC and pets.  And of course an EMPATHY can't run into melee and not get killed by a sizable spawn but I bet you a Dark Miasma can or a Storm Summoner.  But none of that is here nor there.  To make a Melee/Support function smoothly, you can't just plop a support set on it and call it a day.  More than that is required.

 

Most Melee/Supports are no more going to Taunt then a Stalker will.

 

But a Stalker isn't Support so that comparison isn't congruent.  But like I said, whether a Melee/Support taunts or not purely depends on WHY they are taunting.  As is, Tanker/Brute taunt has a debuff to range that forces mobs closer to be able to act.  I see no reason why a Melee/Support wouldn't want that.  Or would you prefer mobs shoot at you where you can't affect them?

 

[EDIT to add] I find it funny you two are forcing me into arguing for a debuff on an AT whose likely purpose in a group is to debuff.  Lol why does Brute even need Fury?  MM don't need more pet buffs/commands. And +mag on Dominator Controls?  Unnecessary! lol

 

We get it.  You two don't like the Taunt powers and you skip them whenever possible.  I still don't think that's a reason to remove them, especially when the AT has MUCH more pressing issues to deal with.