War Witch

[KingCeddd03]

Now that war witch has returned to life, i was thinking she could be the one to introduce a new task force or become the 8th member of the  freedom Phalanx. plus on top of that war witch now inhabits sorceress serene's body. now her having a better body and powers at that, i feel her potential as a hero would be far greater.  The question is what the devs be doing with her moving forward? And will the powersets Autumnal Control and Assault be made to fit her come up.

[Rudra]

Who says War Witch has a better body? She has her body, just from an alternate reality. In the comics, she did basically the same things Serene did, just without joining the Talons of Vengeance. Let War Witch do her own thing, whatever that thing may be that the devs decide they want her to do. (Maybe even have an arc or mission where she teams up with Apex again?)

[El D]

I think the Phalanx has enough issues to manage following the death of Statesman and Sister Psyche, since those threads were never actually dealt with. If anything, War Witch ought to join up with Apex and Horus' Kheldian against Requiem and his new 5th Column. They have some serious unfinished business in that department. Heck, at that point have War Witch resurrect Horus through some ritual (she's got plenty of magical knowledge, plus spirit/necromantic stuff courtesy of the Eternal Gate/Sorceress Serene) and have him re-bind to the Kheldian. The Blue Kings super trio deserves to be reunited properly and kick Ridolfo's butt.

Edited October 26, 2022 by El D

[KingCeddd03]

@Doc_Scorpionwhy do you not like the idea?

[KingCeddd03]

I think War Witch deserves to be in the freedom Phalanx and she has worked with statesman before so her replacing him would be cool to add a real magic user I'm not sure numina can call herself a magic user while a ghost 

2. Apex is doing his own thing at the moment

Edited October 26, 2022 by KingCeddd03

[Rudra]

Positron replaced Statesman. So War Witch will not be Statesman's replacement.

 

Numina is not a ghost. She is an astral projection. (Edit: And as a magic origin controller, she can call herself a mage, magic user, spellcaster, or whatever she wants just fine while being in her astral projection form.)

 

Apex can do his own thing and still work with War Witch again. And considering he is still carrying her sword from when she died, I'm inclined to think he would be more than happy to work with War Witch again. And he doesn't have to lose his position as a TF contact to do so either. All the Freedom Phalanx are doing just fine as TF contacts in separate zones despite all being on the same team and working together in one or two arcs.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudra

[twozerofoxtrot]

I vote Penny Yin for Freedom Phalanx Class President!

[KingCeddd03]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Positron replaced Statesman. So War Witch will not be Statesman's replacement.

 

Numina is not a ghost. She is an astral projection. (Edit: And as a magic origin controller, she can call herself a mage, magic user, spellcaster, or whatever she wants just fine while being in her astral projection form.)

 

Apex can do his own thing and still work with War Witch again. And considering he is still carrying her sword from when she died, I'm inclined to think he would be more than happy to work with War Witch again. And he doesn't have to lose his position as a TF contact to do so either. All the Freedom Phalanx are doing just fine as TF contacts in separate zones despite all being on the same team and working together in one or two arcs.

1. I said she could be a member not the leader.

 

2. Numina is dead so she can not possess magic powers no pretending there

Users can project or separate their consciousness/presence/spirit, alternatively known as their astral form, from their material bodies, allowing for perception, interaction and travel independent of physical limitation. This state is usually achieved through entering a trance (via lucid dreaming or deep meditation), with the user gaining access or influence over the Mental and Astral Planes, as well as potentially other planes of existence, which can extend so enough as to allow the user to move and exist outside the limits of space and time using their astral form. Experienced individuals may be able to control both their astral and corporeal presences, allowing them to extend and project their astral selves without having to lose consciousness in their physical forms, as well as separate others from their physical forms to either to travel alongside them or to imprison them in an incorporeal state. Such a state may even allow for the retention of consciousness regardless of physical damage or even death. Telepaths often astral project by projecting their minds as well as that of other

• User's body is essentially dead/in a coma and thus very vulnerable during astral projection:

  May become possessed while on the Astral Plane.

  May be killed, trapping the user in astral form.

  Can be affected by users of Soul Manipulation.

3.  True but can apex be allowed to leave their post at vanguard?

[Xiddo]

1 hour ago, KingCeddd03 said:

2. Numina is dead

@Rudra
RE: This point, I would argue the semantics around how she is described confuses things and is understandable... In the Ghost Widow arc there is a text line that suggests she is a ghost.
 

Mission Objective(s)

Numina won't be the first hero you've taken out, or the first ghost. But it should be a memorable experience nonetheless.
 

Spoiler

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ghost_Widow#Draw_out_Numina

It is up to our interpretation what she is. She is listed as part of the "Surviving Eight", so I guess its about whether you consider "(astral or ghost) life after (body) death" as being "alive" or "surviving". But that's a philosophical debate. I'm inclined to follow the lore provided in the game. The Ghost Slaying Axe doesn't do extra damage to her, however it does do more to Shivans oddly? Here there is a section called "Enemies that not are Undead", Numina/Woodsman/Diabolique/Ghost Widow are referenced: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Undead_Enemies, they are "animated through other means".

So, I don't think she's a ghost and is - in the parameters of the game's lore - an astral projection. I suspect the odd reference to her being a ghost, largely in redside arcs, is because they're making sweeping statements and being evil/ rude about her.

 

1 hour ago, KingCeddd03 said:

 

2. Numina is dead so she can not possess magic powers no pretending there

 

On this point... This is plainly incorrect, again shown by the lore of the game. The Midnight Masters are listed as "Undead" and full of magic: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Midnight_Masters#Ghoulish_Mystic

 

 

However! I agree more could be done with War Witch and like the sentiment that @KingCeddd03 is evoking. Her arc and getting her body back is interesting. She is a character where things could be continued. Would love to see the comic trio back!

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Xiddo
Spelling

[El D]

I think the core of it is that astral projections and ghosts are essentially both 'spirits' enough to be affected by the same things, with the key difference being how they got to the point of being an incorporeal entity. Ghost Widow's soul/essence/consciousness was fully linked within her own body when she died, and more importantly she died in the throws of a massive failure for Arachnos full of regret, bitterness, and vengeance so she's a traditional ghost - infused with negative energy and unchanging from that horrible moment that ended her life. On the other hand Numina willingly projected out of her own body and possessed Red Threat in an attempt to stop his disruption of the earth's core/save the world, so there's a lot of self-sacrifice and positive emotions there. Her original body got destroyed so she couldn't go back to it and her consciousness got stuck/buried in Red Threat until he died in the Rikti War which set her astral form free.

 

So Numi's not a ghost ghost so much as a disembodied spirit because her spirit never underwent that negative, horrific-type of death (though she might have had a front-row seat to watch it happen to Red Threat, who got ganked by Rikti while he was in prison). Honestly I imagine Numina's manifestation is more in-line with what Sister Psyche would have been in-between mind-riding, she's just stuck in that 'in-between' permanently unless she decides to possess someone else again - though with the established risk getting trapped inside them for who knows how long, totally understand why she doesn't.

Edited October 26, 2022 by El D

[Ruin Mage]

No thanks.

War Witch & Apex team-ups? Sure. War Witch in the Phalanx? Hit the snooze button on that one.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

1. I said she could be a member not the leader.

 

2. Numina is dead so she can not possess magic powers no pretending there

Users can project or separate their consciousness/presence/spirit, alternatively known as their astral form, from their material bodies, allowing for perception, interaction and travel independent of physical limitation. This state is usually achieved through entering a trance (via lucid dreaming or deep meditation), with the user gaining access or influence over the Mental and Astral Planes, as well as potentially other planes of existence, which can extend so enough as to allow the user to move and exist outside the limits of space and time using their astral form. Experienced individuals may be able to control both their astral and corporeal presences, allowing them to extend and project their astral selves without having to lose consciousness in their physical forms, as well as separate others from their physical forms to either to travel alongside them or to imprison them in an incorporeal state. Such a state may even allow for the retention of consciousness regardless of physical damage or even death. Telepaths often astral project by projecting their minds as well as that of other

• User's body is essentially dead/in a coma and thus very vulnerable during astral projection:

  May become possessed while on the Astral Plane.

  May be killed, trapping the user in astral form.

  Can be affected by users of Soul Manipulation.

3.  True but can apex be allowed to leave their post at vanguard?

Background

History

 

Numina, old model

Numina was born Tammy Arcanus, daughter of Tommy Arcanus of the Midnight Squad. Tommy delved so deeply into the metaphysical that his very being was affected, and Tammy was born with magical powers. Early in her super-powered career, Tammy joined the Midnight Squad. In the 1960s, she and her team were sent into a series of caverns surrounding the Earth's molten core. It was there that the Red Threat, a Soviet villain, intended to destroy the world.

To save the Earth, Tammy possessed the body of the Red Threat. She minimized the damage, but her body was destroyed. Her consciousness survived, trapped within the Red Threat until he was killed in prison during the Rikti Invasion. Tammy's astral form was at last free. She renamed herself Numina and threw herself into the war against the Rikti. In the war's aftermath, Numina uses her abilities to nurture the next generation of heroes.

Numina is one of the Surviving Eight, dedicated to helping Paragon City rebuild after the Rikti War.

Numina's sidekick is Infernal although he has become a full-fledged hero in his own right as a member of the Vindicators. She is helping him become acclimated to Primal Earth.

 

Copied straight from paragonwiki.com. And in the arc where you are working for Ghost Widow against Numina, Ghost Widow tells you that since Ghost Widow is a ghost and Numina is an astral projection, they have a hard time hurting each other. She may not have a body any more, but the game at multiple points says she is specifically an astral projection, not a ghost.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, KingCeddd03 said:

3.  True but can apex be allowed to leave their post at vanguard?

Can the Freedom Phalanx members be allowed to leave their posts? What about characters that are members of Vanguard and a SG? Ms. Liberty is the head of Longbow and a member of the Vindicators. Apex does not have to leave his post at Vanguard to work with War Witch again or reconstitute their SG.

[biostem]

How about something where War Witch, Horus, and Apex, (possibly alternate dimension versions, or possibly on a spiritual plane), recruit our characters to try and "set right that which once went wrong" in a rematch against Requiem - maybe some sort of Trial/iTrial - heck, you could have it where we are trying to stop the 5th Column from going back in time to Cimerora...

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, Xiddo said:

@Rudra
RE: This point, I would argue the semantics around how she is described confuses things and is understandable... In the Ghost Widow arc there is a text line that suggests she is a ghost.
 

Mission Objective(s)

Numina won't be the first hero you've taken out, or the first ghost. But it should be a memorable experience nonetheless.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Ghost_Widow#Draw_out_Numina

It is up to our interpretation what she is. She is listed as part of the "Surviving Eight", so I guess its about whether you consider "(astral or ghost) life after (body) death" as being "alive" or "surviving". But that's a philosophical debate. I'm inclined to follow the lore provided in the game. The Ghost Slaying Axe doesn't do extra damage to her, however it does do more to Shivans oddly? Here there is a section called "Enemies that not are Undead", Numina/Woodsman/Diabolique/Ghost Widow are referenced: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Undead_Enemies, they are "animated through other means".

So, I don't think she's a ghost and is - in the parameters of the game's lore - an astral projection. I suspect the odd reference to her being a ghost, largely in redside arcs, is because they're making sweeping statements and being evil/ rude about her.

 

 

On this point... This is plainly incorrect, again shown by the lore of the game. The Midnight Masters are listed as "Undead" and full of magic: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Midnight_Masters#Ghoulish_Mystic

 

 

However! I agree more could be done with War Witch and like the sentiment that @KingCeddd03 is evoking. Her arc and getting her body back is interesting. She is a character where things could be continued. Would love to see the comic trio back!

 

The thing to understand between Ghost Widow and Numina has nothing to do with their emotional state at the time their bodies expired.

 

Ghost Widow was a regular Night Widow working with a regular Wolf Spider (rank unknown) at the time of her death. Her soul, her mind, her spirit, whatever, was not separate. She was a normal widow and died. Because of her loyalty to Arachnos and her friend Paolo, her spirit lingered after death. Thus, she is a ghost. She died and her spirit vacated her body at the time of her demise, only to remain tethered to the world by her anchor: service to Arachnos. Which works as the normal expected task that causes a ghost to linger in most lore.

 

Numina was a magic origin hero who astrally projected herself to stop her foe. Her mind was separate from her body prior to its demise. For all intents and purposes, her body was an empty husk while the person that is Numina was elsewhere in an astral projection state. When her body was killed, she was not linked to it. She simply no longer had a body to return to. Thus, she is a free astral projection, or an unbound astral projection if you prefer. The death of her body had nothing to do with her being an astral projection, it just meant she could not return to her body and end her astral projection state. (Edit: Meaning Numna is still technically alive, just disembodied. So she can grow as an individual, adapt, and change. Something Ghost Widow cannot readily do without external pressure of some sort applied to her anchor such as when she starts siding with the character in her patron arcs.)

Edited October 26, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change a comma to a colon.

[Xiddo]

54 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The thing to understand between Ghost Widow and Numina has nothing to do with their emotional state at the time their bodies expired.

 

Ghost Widow was a regular Night Widow working with a regular Wolf Spider (rank unknown) at the time of her death. Her soul, her mind, her spirit, whatever, was not separate. She was a normal widow and died. Because of her loyalty to Arachnos and her friend Paolo, her spirit lingered after death. Thus, she is a ghost. She died and her spirit vacated her body at the time of her demise, only to remain tethered to the world by her anchor: service to Arachnos. Which works as the normal expected task that causes a ghost to linger in most lore.

 

Numina was a magic origin hero who astrally projected herself to stop her foe. Her mind was separate from her body prior to its demise. For all intents and purposes, her body was an empty husk while the person that is Numina was elsewhere in an astral projection state. When her body was killed, she was not linked to it. She simply no longer had a body to return to. Thus, she is a free astral projection, or an unbound astral projection if you prefer. The death of her body had nothing to do with her being an astral projection, it just meant she could not return to her body and end her astral projection state. (Edit: Meaning Numna is still technically alive, just disembodied. So she can grow as an individual, adapt, and change. Something Ghost Widow cannot readily do without external pressure of some sort applied to her anchor such as when she starts siding with the character in her patron arcs.)

hard agree - was just trying to understand where the confusion was from.

The GW lore makes a point of saying she is tethered (correct work?) to something which means she can still be around. Numina doesn’t require that!

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Xiddo said:

hard agree - was just trying to understand where the confusion was from.

The GW lore makes a point of saying she is tethered (correct work?) to something which means she can still be around. Numina doesn’t require that!

The "tether" is Arachnos itself - in other words, either she has some unfinished business in the material world, or the Arachnos organization, (possibly Lord recluse, but not necessarily), is exerting some sort of influence or control that prevented her soul from leaving...

 

As for Numina, she was already outside of her body, which was then killed/died.  I would assume that lacking a physical body is more of an inconvenience for her, (she probably misses being able to eat or touch anyone).  This is just some conjecture, but there may also be some concern as to how long her astral projection can sustain itself.

 

It's also tough in the CoH setting, as magic and psionics are not clearly defined, and may in fact be 2 sides of the same coin...

Edited October 26, 2022 by biostem

[Xiddo]

Fair play to OP. It’s quite nice chatting about the lore.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

It's also tough in the CoH setting, as magic and psionics are not clearly defined, and may in fact be 2 sides of the same coin...

Psionics is simply a term for mental powers and can be considered an effect in CoH. Psionics itself is not tied to an origin.

 

Magic can be used to create psionics such as a spell of mind reading.

 

Mutations can be a source of psionics such as Jean Grey, Professor X, and other characters in comics.

 

Science can be used to create psionics such as by the use of drugs (See the Dune series of books) and mental "re-wiring" such as seen in... I can't remember that movie's name....

 

Technology can be used to create psionics such as through devices like the "psychic headband". (A technological creation that is worn around the head and enables the wearer to project and read thoughts.)

 

Natural characters can use psionics by mental training, typically under the tutelage of some Grand Sage.

[KingCeddd03]

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

Positron replaced Statesman. So War Witch will not be Statesman's replacement.

 

Numina is not a ghost. She is an astral projection. (Edit: And as a magic origin controller, she can call herself a mage, magic user, spellcaster, or whatever she wants just fine while being in her astral projection form.)

 

Apex can do his own thing and still work with War Witch again. And considering he is still carrying her sword from when she died, I'm inclined to think he would be more than happy to work with War Witch again. And he doesn't have to lose his position as a TF contact to do so either. All the Freedom Phalanx are doing just fine as TF contacts in separate zones despite all being on the same team and working together in one or two arcs.

1. I said she could be a member not the leader.

 

2. Numina is dead so she can not possess magic powers no pretending there

Users can project or separate their consciousness/presence/spirit, alternatively known as their astral form, from their material bodies, allowing for perception, interaction and travel independent of physical limitation. This state is usually achieved through entering a trance (via lucid dreaming or deep meditation), with the user gaining access or influence over the Mental and Astral Planes, as well as potentially other planes of existence, which can extend so enough as to allow the user to move and exist outside the limits of space and time using their astral form. Experienced individuals may be able to control both their astral and corporeal presences, allowing them to extend and project their astral selves without having to lose consciousness in their physical forms, as well as separate others from their physical forms to either to travel alongside them or to imprison them in an incorporeal state. Such a state may even allow for the retention of consciousness regardless of physical damage or even death. Telepaths often astral project by projecting their minds as well as that of other

• User's body is essentially dead/in a coma and thus very vulnerable during astral projection:

  May become possessed while on the Astral Plane.

  May be killed, trapping the user in astral form.

  Can be affected by users of Soul Manipulation.

3.  True but can apex be allowed to leave their post at vanguard?

 

Why isn't horus in the game ?

[Rudra]

You already made this post. Why are you re-posting the same thing?

[KingCeddd03]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You already made this post. Why are you re-posting the same thing?

did u read the last question of course not, that's why u are asking silly questions 

[Rudra]

Then ask the question. Re-posting the entire previous post to add a question at the end disincetivizes me from reading the post.

 

Horus is not in the game because he died. His Kheldian was free to find a new host.

[KingCeddd03]

On 10/27/2022 at 3:10 AM, Rudra said:

Then ask the question. Re-posting the entire previous post to add a question at the end disincetivizes me from reading the post.

 

Horus is not in the game because he died. His Kheldian was free to find a new host.

but he should still be somewhere in the game 

[Rudra]

Horus was a Peacebringer character who didn't know he had a Kheldian in him. When he died, his Kheldian was released and moved on to find a new host. So Horus the Peacebringer didn't exist any more because the human was dead and the Kheldian had presumably merged with someone else. Why should he still be in the game somewhere? With War Witch back, it would be nice if Horus was brought back, but there are a few more hurdles involved than even War Witch had to deal with.