Endurance reduction pass on toggles

[Outrider_01]

Suggestion, slight reduction on endurance consumption on toggles. 

 

The standard seems to be 0.26 across the board for most toggles that give +def, +res, or +status. 

 

Can it be changed to .20 for toggles run in defense or resist sets, at most saves about .18 since most run 3 toggles at all times (not counting damage or taunt toggles)

 

Scrapper/Wet Ice gives + .75 defense and +22 Cold resist (already near cap without Wet Ice anyway) but you can only slot EndReduc, where as Scrapper/Inv gives 7.5% resist and can be slotted with resist sets. Wet Ice pushes cold cap and smidge defense, but Invulnerable is 7.5% resist across the board, the disparity on the secondary effects like +resist on different sets is kind of meh for the same endurance toggle cost. Especially with all the toggles in Dark or Ice.

 

At least reduce endurance cost by 1/5 would solve lower level play.

 

Obligatory "slot endurance reduction" 🥴 Gonna figure out this Dark/Ice scrapper with TOO MUCH endurance recovery ironically.  Was looking at several damage sets but this was a random attention grab.

[JasperStone]

 

Not sure it could give the help you expect.

I will wait for wiser minds to chime.

But this was discussed (in a way) in the included thread.

[TheZag]

Buffs to solve lower level play will carry over to higher level play.  Ive found slotting pancea and performance shifter are more than enough for low level play.

 

....but the new players....

Everyone was a new player at some point and we all managed to get that first character leveled up.  Literally thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of characters have made it through the low level play.  Endurance starts out a bit wimpy (but still better than live with free stamina) and improves as you level up and get more enhancements and slots.  Its lets you improve as you level instead of being top tier out of the gate.

 

Also,  put an end reduction in your attacks.  1 end reduction SO in an attack that costs 10 is equivalent to about 50 seconds of what that .06 reduction would save and you get the savings every single attack.

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

Buy this from the P2W vendor.  50k inf gets you five charges and with lots of global recharge you can make it permanent.  

[...]

No

[Rudra]

I created a new character to verify this: a starting Scrapper has a base recovery of 2.08 END/sec with no enhancements of any kind slotted. Running 3 toggles at .26 END/sec means your character is burning .78 END/sec. And still recovering 2.08 END/sec. For a net gain of 1.3 END/sec recovery. It's not the toggles. Slot END reductions into your attacks.

[lemming]

Not sure I like the "We all suffer thru it, so you must as well"

 

However, there are a bunch of ways to deal with it other than set bonuses

 

The mentioned Recovery Serum, various procs like Performance Shifter.    Doing the DFB and DiB give you recovery boost options.

 

I do find at the lower levels, I do need to use more End Reduction, but can swap those out as other mitigation methods become available.

[Rudra]

I don't view END management as suffering and I don't see the replies as a "we all suffered through it, so you must as well" bit either. As has been stated by @JasperStone earlier in this thread in the provided link to the Stamina thread, it is not the toggles that devour the low level character's END. The OP will not change anything when it comes to low level END management. It is the attacks that devour the character's END pool. So telling the author to slot END reduction enhancements into his/her attacks is not meant to be a "you must suffer too!" thing. It is guidance on how to deal with it. Same thing with  @Yomo Kimyata's response, it is a way to deal with END management. Same thing with your post too.

[Zect]

Absolutely not! And the reason is this:

 

4 hours ago, TheZag said:

Buffs to solve lower level play will carry over to higher level play.

 

 

Various powersets and set IO's are balanced around their endurance consumption or amount of endurance reduction. See e.g. storm and SS with their formidable DPS but punishing endurance consumption, or oblits with excellent set bonuses, but low endredux amounts; the melee def being the 6th piece bonus which eliminates any option of compensating with frankenslotting makes this set a masterpiece of IO set design.

 

This suggestion will not only result in power creep, it may even cause endurance management to not be a factor at all in build design, and make plenty of endurance management powers redundant (which will then lead to whines about them being pointless - see the various complaints about boxing/kick - and result in even more power creep).

 

The game already offers numerous ways to mitigate endurance cost early on; it's up to you to use them intelligently, or PL past the low levels if you refuse to.

[lemming]

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't view END management as suffering and I don't see the replies as a "we all suffered through it, so you must as well" bit either.

I think some of those I might have conflated with the other thread.   I blame lack of coffee which is my stamina fuel proc

[MTeague]

The bottom line is the game design doesn't plan on you being Fully Super right out of the gate. 

You start wtih powers/skills, but the game is designed so you have to stop and REST every so often.

Eventually, with enough slots, and with enough resources gathered to fill those slots, you become Fully Super.

 

And yes, if you're doing a character who's live-off-the-land, and everyone else is using characters they've sugar-daddied with 10 million or more influence and are chugging the P2W amplifiers like they're candy, you will be comparitively left behind, or feeling like a 7th wheel.

 

Honestly, if it were up to me, nothing on the P2W vendors would exist at all, anywhere. In any form.

But it's not up to me, and that's fine too. (Honestly, I should probably never run any kind of customer-facing business, EVER.)

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Zect said:

Absolutely not! And the reason is this:

 

 

Various powersets and set IO's are balanced around their endurance consumption or amount of endurance reduction. See e.g. storm and SS with their formidable DPS but punishing endurance consumption, or oblits with excellent set bonuses, but low endredux amounts; the melee def being the 6th piece bonus which eliminates any option of compensating with frankenslotting makes this set a masterpiece of IO set design.

 

This suggestion will not only result in power creep, it may even cause endurance management to not be a factor at all in build design, and make plenty of endurance management powers redundant (which will then lead to whines about them being pointless - see the various complaints about boxing/kick - and result in even more power creep).

 

The game already offers numerous ways to mitigate endurance cost early on; it's up to you to use them intelligently, or PL past the low levels if you refuse to.

If you have endurance issues end game you can slot Ageless very easily. Endurance is easy to cover end game with a build/temps/incarnate etc. A 50 will have the funds/experience. also

 

Blasters get +recovery and they don't run many toggles. Did they actually need it? I am not a Blaster player but do they need to slot end reductions at low level when they get the +recovery power?

 

Some sets have it much easier like Rad Armor for example that has a heal/end recovery/damage all in one AoE and they also get +recovery. Others sets consume more and recover less and need more help to work efficiently. Rad armor is a very strong set.

 

There are certainly numerous ways to mitigate endurance at low levels but does a newbie know these and can they afford it. without knowing also how to make influence? 

 

Not everyone can or wants to PL an alt. Players with high levels toons can easily sort a low level alts endurance with Inf/IO's/Temps and so on.

 

Buffs may not be the answer but a permanent thread covering endurance management would be really helpful to new players if one does not already exist. 

 

Just speaking generally Zect and not directing entirely to you.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Rudra]

Help channel is a thing. New players can ask for help on how to do things including manage their END. Same in Broadcast, General, and even Local channels. The 'new players are ignorant' trope is not the problem. There is always help available to answer questions, give guidance, assist in tasks, and even provide inf' to get the new player or even just new character started.

 

There are also the forums and assorted online guides that can be googled. I'm fine with there being a  'CoH For Dummies', 'Endurance And You: Thriving As A New Character', or whatever else anyone may want to title a pinned thread giving tips and guidance for low level play or END management. I'm just tired of the 'new players are idiots and need to be hand held through the game' pitch.

 

Edit: Sorry, @Gobbledegook. Not trying to rant at you. Just rather tired of that particular response.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

There was a 13% reduction in endurance costs across the board when ED was implemented.  Stamina was made inherent in Issue 19, then made available at level 1 three Pages ago.  SOs drop and can be purchased at level 1.  Set IOs are no longer the bailiwick of the fabulously wealthy elite.  We have numerous additional tools for managing endurance which didn't exist, or didn't exist in a widely usable form on the original servers, like the Survival amplifier (1000 inf* for one hour at level 1, stacks to eight hours).  Endurance management doesn't need to be addressed, people need to use the tools available.  It's so much easier now to maintain a full blue bar, even at starter levels, that reducing endurance costs would be comparable to removing the endurance mechanic entirely... at which point we're throwing balance in the trash and handing players unlimited power.  I doubt that will happen on these servers.

 

Endurance management is part and parcel of the game's design and balance.  It always has been and always will be because it's one of the few constraints which prevent players from being omnipotent.

 

New players will learn, just as we all have, and they will be better players for having done so, just as we all are.

[Gobbledigook]

29 minutes ago, Luminara said:

There was a 13% reduction in endurance costs across the board when ED was implemented.  Stamina was made inherent in Issue 19, then made available at level 1 three Pages ago.  SOs drop and can be purchased at level 1.  Set IOs are no longer the bailiwick of the fabulously wealthy elite.  We have numerous additional tools for managing endurance which didn't exist, or didn't exist in a widely usable form on the original servers, like the Survival amplifier (1000 inf* for one hour at level 1, stacks to eight hours).  Endurance management doesn't need to be addressed, people need to use the tools available.  It's so much easier now to maintain a full blue bar, even at starter levels, that reducing endurance costs would be comparable to removing the endurance mechanic entirely... at which point we're throwing balance in the trash and handing players unlimited power.  I doubt that will happen on these servers.

 

Endurance management is part and parcel of the game's design and balance.  It always has been and always will be because it's one of the few constraints which prevent players from being omnipotent.

 

New players will learn, just as we all have, and they will be better players for having done so, just as we all are.

Yes.

 

Although some AT's/power sets have a much easier time than others and are just as powerful.

 

I don't think anyone mentioned reducing endurance costs comparable to removing the endurance mechanic anywhere. There may be a few powers/toggles that may need a slight reduction though. Ageless incarnate does remove the mechanic in a way though lol.

 

New players are not idiots...hell they picked this game to play so must have some sense :P.  But a Starter/newbie thread could be really nice for some, just answering a few common questions/problems. But players are always helpful in game.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I think the villian Veats would benefit most from this suggestion. intelligent slotting fixes most endurance issues except for widows and crabs.