Dominator > Martial Assault

[kelika2]

Switch out Caltrops for Crane Kick

With Primaries designed to cripple and hold, having caltrops in a low damage and highly resisted damage type set seems less than useful.  Plus there are only so many ways to throw a shruiken.  What else can you do?  PBAoE Fan of Shruikens?  TAoE Cone Fling Shuririkeknekns?  TAoE rain of throwing stars?  barbed?  electric laced?  cryo-ken?  Burst of Stars TAoE cone using Claws>Swipes old animation?

Anyways Crane Kick sounds neat.

 

Envenomed Blades might be better as a Toggle

10% overall damage, 5% tohit, 100% chance to proc minor Toxic direct damage

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Switch out Caltrops for Crane Kick

With Primaries designed to cripple and hold, having caltrops in a low damage and highly resisted damage type set seems less than useful.  Plus there are only so many ways to throw a shruiken.  What else can you do?  PBAoE Fan of Shruikens?  TAoE Cone Fling Shuririkeknekns?  TAoE rain of throwing stars?  barbed?  electric laced?  cryo-ken?  Burst of Stars TAoE cone using Claws>Swipes old animation?

Anyways Crane Kick sounds neat.

 

You are talking about taking away a power from players because it does not suit your preferred playstyle. No. There are players that use caltrops. There are players that like caltrops as a power. Please stop asking to take powers away from players.

[Wavicle]

The reasoning is spot on. There is no justification for having a control power in an Assault set. Same in Thorns. Get rid of Thorntrops.

[biostem]

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Switch out Caltrops for Crane Kick

With Primaries designed to cripple and hold, having caltrops in a low damage and highly resisted damage type set seems less than useful.  Plus there are only so many ways to throw a shruiken.  What else can you do?  PBAoE Fan of Shruikens?  TAoE Cone Fling Shuririkeknekns?  TAoE rain of throwing stars?  barbed?  electric laced?  cryo-ken?  Burst of Stars TAoE cone using Claws>Swipes old animation?

Anyways Crane Kick sounds neat.

Caltrops is not about the damage - it's about area denial and the slow - it's a way of controlling the battle field in a "softer" way than a hard control power.  If you want to propose a variant of martial assault, by all means, but let's not throw out a power that a lot of people use because it doesn't suit your preferred play style...

[Rudra]

If you don't want Caltrops and would rather a melee attack in its place, you can take Boxing, Kick, Cross Punch, Air Superiority, Jump Kick, Spring Attack, Flurry or Whirlwind in its place. If you don't want Caltrops and would rather a ranged attack in its place, you can take Toxic Dart, Corrosive Vial, Project Will, Wall of Force, or Arcane Bolt.

 

If you take Caltrops away from Martial Assault then the players that use that power and enjoy that power can replace it with... nothing.

 

Choice is clear. You can already have what you want. So don't ask to take away what others are using just because you don't like it.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for spelling errors.

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

You are talking about taking away a power from players because it does not suit your preferred playstyle. No. There are players that use caltrops. There are players that like caltrops as a power. Please stop asking to take powers away from players.

Those are all assumptions.  Even assuming play martial is a huge enough assumption on its own.  And if its just you, just say so.  dont hide behind an imaginary army of theoreticals.

 

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

Caltrops is not about the damage - it's about area denial and the slow - it's a way of controlling the battle field in a "softer" way than a hard control power.  If you want to propose a variant of martial assault, by all means, but let's not throw out a power that a lot of people use because it doesn't suit your preferred play style...

But your Primary possibly do it so much better it makes Caltrops redundant or useless.  Any immobilize, bonfire, singularity, hold, etc.  You also probably forgot about how few choke points there are in this game to even justify the need for an area denial, even worse yet, a second or third hand area denial ability.  Also dont forget how bad caltrops is to slow things down and how small the patch is to other powers.  and target limits

Also please remember Procs are on the Devs radar if you considered proctrops as an argument

Also please remember that Immobilizes, where applicable, do not stop quake/slick

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

You are talking about taking away a power from players because it does not suit your preferred playstyle. No. There are players that use caltrops. There are players that like caltrops as a power. Please stop asking to take powers away from players.

Those are all assumptions.  Even assuming play martial is a huge enough assumption on its own.  And if its just you, just say so.  dont hide behind an imaginary army of theoreticals.

I don't typically play Dominators and I have no Martial Assault characters. This isn't about me.

 

11 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

But your Primary possibly do it so much better it makes Caltrops redundant or useless. 

I can see redundant dependent on the primary, but useless is strictly your opinion. It is also not relevant to my argument that there are players that like their Caltrops and you are asking to take it away from them because you don't like it.

 

12 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

You also probably forgot about how few choke points there are in this game to even justify the need for an area denial, even worse yet, a second or third hand area denial ability. 

No, I haven't. I just don't care. There are players that like their Caltrops. You don't get to take it away from them because you don't like it. I mean, find it redundant or useless.

 

13 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Also dont forget how bad caltrops is to slow things down and how small the patch is to other powers.  and target limits

Also please remember Procs are on the Devs radar if you considered proctrops as an argument

Also please remember that Immobilizes, where applicable, do not stop quake/slick

I don't care. I'm not arguing about how good or bad Caltrops is on its own or in conjunction with Dominator primaries. I'm only looking at the fact you are asking to take away a power that other players use because you don't like it. You are asking to impose your preferences on how others play.

[Wavicle]

The sets in question should never have had such powers in the first place. This is like the people who argued that Force Bubble should have remained as is because some people liked it. The vast majority of people just skipped it. Control powers don’t belong in Assault sets. A few people like it is not a good reason.

[kelika2]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I can see redundant dependent on the primary, but useless is strictly your opinion

I build my characters for the most common scenario.  Caltrops is just so god damn situational I could only justify it on a blaster and masterminds only to keep Rain type powers in check.  And because of their small AoE radius it doesnt even do a good job at that.

 

Meanwhile, Dominators have so many other tools in their primary at their disposal it makes the idea of Caltrops redundant, if not useless.

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, I haven't. I just don't care. There are players that like their Caltrops

Without being able to prove this I am going to take a note from you and just say I do not care.  A few of my threads ago you announced to me that you lost respect for me, I am going to ask you to take this a step further and tell you to put me on ignore.  I just want to put my note in the suggestion box to the staff/developers and meanwhile you constantly come into my threads putting your vote, an actual thumbs up or thumbs down on a suggestion making the volunteer janitors lock a thread and put another warning on my account.  Please recuse yourself from my threads and posts and threads for everyone involved peace of minds.  I am so fucking tired of seeing you in my feeds.  Please leave me alone.

 

Please, please leave me alone, @Rudra.  I am begging you to leave me alone.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Caltrops is just so god damn situational I could only justify it on a blaster and masterminds only to keep Rain type powers in check.  And because of their small AoE radius it doesnt even do a good job at that.

While I agree with you that Caltrops in a Dom secondary is redundant and pointless, I think you may be missing the actual use of the power for a Blaster.  If you put the Caltrops BETWEEN you and the enemy and then attack from range, Caltrops will prevent, or at least delay, enemies from reaching you to use melee attacks. A single Slow enhancement is enough generally to floor run speed. It's an every spawn power for soloing certain playstyles.

On teams it's mostly useless, yes.

[Nayeh]

Not big on OP's suggestions. Though Shurikens/Weapon throwing themselves really deserve an entire Blast set.

 

My Plant/Martial Dominator likes to add a little salt to the wounds by hurling out Caltrops ontop of the Creeps.

 

The only suggestions I would make for Martial Assault would be to give the Shurikens some kind of secondary aspect to them - Like Defense debuffs or Bleeding effects. Preferably the Defense debuff because as the set stands now - it is kind of limited building with what are basically 3 single ranged attack-type abilities. I also feel like Shurikens are on-par with Broadsword in terms of what they do as a weapon functionally.

 

Also for making Envenomed Blades a little more intuitive and impactful - it's just an okay ability that really could use some help as it doesn't provide much as the only buff-effect compared to the other Assault set buffs. Maybe give it a Swap Ammo-type function or make the Envenomed Effect more debuffy and not just a mere damage bonus.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nayeh

[kelika2]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

While I agree with you that Caltrops in a Dom secondary is redundant and pointless, I think you may be missing the actual use of the power for a Blaster.

Oh thats because my experience with it on a blaster is from a fire/water blast standpoint where Caltrops radius is smaller than the rain powers and overall final build lack of slots to put in -speed enhancements in it.  It can help but the double stacked fear causes them to sometimes flee out of the caltrops radius, and then the rain radius

[Wavicle]

It doesn’t need additional slots. Just 1 Slow in the base slot is fine.

[kelika2]

Worth trying.  Maybe because im spoiled by my fire/ice/ice-storm/dark/cold corrs by their huge base raiduses I didnt even think about -slow in caltrops.

worst case scenario im out like 300k inf in enhancements

[Wavicle]

It’s not necessarily going to Keep them in a Rain power, but it will at least make them flee Away rather than Toward you. It’s primarily a defensive control ability, which is why it does not belong in an Assault set.

[biostem]

37 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The sets in question should never have had such powers in the first place. This is like the people who argued that Force Bubble should have remained as is because some people liked it. The vast majority of people just skipped it. Control powers don’t belong in Assault sets. A few people like it is not a good reason.

That is a bold assertion to make.  I do not lend much weight to your opinion as to what "should" have been done with the sets, especially since thorny assault was one of the initial dominator secondaries.  Present a new secondary that best fits your conception about what a "proper" such set should be...

[kelika2]

23 minutes ago, biostem said:

That is a bold assertion to make.  I do not lend much weight to your opinion as to what "should" have been done with the sets, especially since thorny assault was one of the initial dominator secondaries.  Present a new secondary that best fits your conception about what a "proper" such set should be...

At times like these I really wish the whoever did keep up with the monthly AT/set popularity updates kept updating.

I can see Thorntrops called replaced with [Valley of Spears] using the Footstomp animation for a TAoE adopting Earth Control's Stalagmites graphic.  Or even swapping Ripper to T7 and adding [Flick Thorn] to T8 using Moonbeam's animation for a Snipe

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The sets in question should never have had such powers in the first place. This is like the people who argued that Force Bubble should have remained as is because some people liked it. The vast majority of people just skipped it. Control powers don’t belong in Assault sets. A few people like it is not a good reason.

If the devs look at the OP, go "good idea!", and act on it, that is their choice. Until such time, I am free to do my utmost to keep people from imposing their preferred playstyle on others. Asking to take something players already have away from them to suit your preferences is imposing your preferences on others. Asking for a new secondary set would not have elicited the opposition the OP elicited.

[Wavicle]

By this logic every power in the game is perfect and no changes should ever be made. Meanwhile, in reality, caltrops does not belong in an assault set.

[Rudra]

Incorrect. If a power needs to be tweaked, then ask to have it tweaked. The OP isn't asking for the power to be tweaked, it is asking to have it simply replaced. Caltrops in Martial Assault is a T7 power as opposed to T2 for Blasters. If it needs a buff for being a T7 version, ask for a buff. If you want it replaced, ask for a different power set. Katana and Broadsword are very similar. A similar set for Martial Assault is an option.

[Wavicle]

Broadsword is probably going to have a power replaced, just like Battle Axe did, so that’s not a useful example.

 

Reordering Martial Assault would certainly help.

 

I don’t see how they could buff caltrops to make it worth being a t7, nor do I see how they could buff it to make it worth being in an assault set. They aren’t going to turn it into a good damage ability.

 

 Sometimes powers have to be replaced. There’s plenty of precedence at this point.

[JasperStone]

12 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The reasoning is spot on. There is no justification for having a control power in an Assault set. Same in Thorns. Get rid of Thorntrops.

Knives of Artemis want a word.

Caltrops is underrated. 

Make this an option; not sure how, but I value the power.

[Wavicle]

Ok, I came up with an alternative solution.
 

Add a -Mez Resistance Debuff to Martial Assault>Caltrops and Thorny Assault>Thorntrops. So enemies in the 'Trops stay mezzed longer.

That would justify the power being in an Assault set AND would justify being placed at t7.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Broadsword is probably going to have a power replaced, just like Battle Axe did, so that’s not a useful example.

 

Reordering Martial Assault would certainly help.

 

I don’t see how they could buff caltrops to make it worth being a t7, nor do I see how they could buff it to make it worth being in an assault set. They aren’t going to turn it into a good damage ability.

 

 Sometimes powers have to be replaced. There’s plenty of precedence at this point.

 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

If the devs look at the OP, go "good idea!", and act on it, that is their choice. Until such time, I am free to do my utmost to keep people from imposing their preferred playstyle on others. Asking to take something players already have away from them to suit your preferences is imposing your preferences on others.

Let's take a look at Maintenance Drone. Repair was a power that saw little use. So what did the devs do? They made it into a pet that follows you around and heals your other pets for you until it runs out of health or you zone. Looks like a power was replaced, doesn't it? Except, it wasn't. Maintenance Drone is the Repair power, but as a pet that follows you around. So it is an improvement on the Repair power in my eyes, not a power replacement.

 

I can't stop the devs from changing or even replacing powers. That's on them. I can state my opposition to suggestions that take powers away from players already using them though.

[Wavicle]

@Rudra what do you think of my new suggestion?

 

  

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Ok, I came up with an alternative solution.
 

Add a -Mez Resistance Debuff to Martial Assault>Caltrops and Thorny Assault>Thorntrops. So enemies in the 'Trops stay mezzed longer.

That would justify the power being in an Assault set AND would justify being placed at t7.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Wavicle