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Suggestion: Reduction in complexity for the Invention system.


ZaranBlack
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+1 to the idea of bucketing salvage for crafting, not just for the markets

 

This can be done without losing the lore and flavour.... the individual salvage would remain, but any drop would be useful

 

Most of the objections in this thread are pretty much gaslighting IMHO - over focus on the OP's mention of newbies for justification without addressing the main proposal

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On 12/11/2022 at 11:28 AM, Rudra said:

The contact is auto-loaded to them with a big pop-up telling them they have the contact when they reach level 6.

 

Edit: I realize here that you are likely referring to the early contacts that do appear at level 6, not the Invention Tutorial Contacts to which the post just before yours was referring specifically.

 

I'm going to leave all this here mostly untouched anyway, because having the University Tutorial contacts appear as a pop-up at level 10 and including them in the listing shown when using the Find Contacts Button are good ideas and easy to implement.

 

My apologies, but I feel the need for more precision here.

 

The 3 various "University" contacts (Blue, Red, Gold) do not show up in a pop-up at level 6 as they are unavailable until level 10.  My latest toon just turned 6 and did not see them in available pop-ups and cannot talk to them as they are too low level:

 

nope2.thumb.JPG.2774cd73cd9681c93c4cc41ac5b4e170.JPG

 

Nor do these contacts appear in the listing provided when using the "Find Contacts" button.

 

I'll pay attention at level 10 on my currently leveling toon, but I do not recall them ever appearing at level 10 either.

 

It has been a while since I have done either of the tutorial arcs, so I will take your word for it that the University is introduced there. Grym is literally in the SC University, but I don't recall text during Shining Stars explaining what the University is nor introducing the tutorial contact.  Those two arcs are also Blueside.  There might be Red/Gold equivilant arcs that send players to University, but I don't remember.  Actually, now that I type this I vaguely remember being prompted to go there in Praetoria at some point during my Side Switch Every Time run.

 

Still, they should be in the "Find Contacts" listing at level 10 and beyond at the very least, and a pop-up as you describe at level 10 would be ideal - especially if it mentions in bold red text that this is the introduction to CoH's crafting system.

Edited by InvaderStych
Better screenshot, and clarity.

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3 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Edit: I realize here that you are likely referring to the early contacts that do appear at level 6, not the Invention Tutorial Contacts to which the post just before yours was referring specifically.

 

I'm going to leave all this here mostly untouched anyway, because having the University Tutorial contacts appear as a pop-up at level 10 and including them in the listing shown when using the Find Contacts Button are good ideas and easy to implement.

 

My apologies, but I feel the need for more precision here.

 

The 3 various "University" contacts (Blue, Red, Gold) do not show up in a pop-up at level 6 as they are unavailable until level 10.  My latest toon just turned 6 and did not see them in available pop-ups and cannot talk to them as they are too low level:

 

nope2.thumb.JPG.2774cd73cd9681c93c4cc41ac5b4e170.JPG

 

Nor do these contacts appear in the listing provided when using the "Find Contacts" button.

 

I'll pay attention at level 10 on my currently leveling toon, but I do not recall them ever appearing at level 10 either.

 

It has been a while since I have done either of the tutorial arcs, so I will take your word for it that the University is introduced there. Grym is literally in the SC University, but I don't recall text during Shining Stars explaining what the University is nor introducing the tutorial contact.  Those two arcs are also Blueside.  There might be Red/Gold equivilant arcs that send players to University, but I don't remember.  Actually, now that I type this I vaguely remember being prompted to go there in Praetoria at some point during my Side Switch Every Time run.

 

Still, they should be in the "Find Contacts" listing at level 10 and beyond at the very least, and a pop-up as you describe at level 10 would be ideal - especially if it mentions in bold red text that this is the introduction to CoH's crafting system.

 

I've leveled some alts recently and don't remember seeing these contacts pop-up after leveling. I've seen others but I don't recall them coming up for the University. My memory could be off though.

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8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I've leveled some alts recently and don't remember seeing these contacts pop-up after leveling. I've seen others but I don't recall them coming up for the University. My memory could be off though.

 

Like so many things, the game funneling changed as the game progressed, I haven't ever been directed to go to the University for the missions there since I've been on Homecoming.

 

If you go to the University in Steel and turn left. Go past the first bank of invention tables, and you will see Admissions Officer Lenk. He is the first contact in the University missions. You run a door mission, get passed through several contacts, and are given the supplies to build an IO non-set enhancement as high as level 20 if I remember correctly.

 

The contacts still work and would talk to me at level 30 so I think you can go through the arc once per character regardless of level.

If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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6 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Edit: I realize here that you are likely referring to the early contacts that do appear at level 6, not the Invention Tutorial Contacts to which the post just before yours was referring specifically.

 

I'm going to leave all this here mostly untouched anyway, because having the University Tutorial contacts appear as a pop-up at level 10 and including them in the listing shown when using the Find Contacts Button are good ideas and easy to implement.

 

My apologies, but I feel the need for more precision here.

 

The 3 various "University" contacts (Blue, Red, Gold) do not show up in a pop-up at level 6 as they are unavailable until level 10.  My latest toon just turned 6 and did not see them in available pop-ups and cannot talk to them as they are too low level:

 

nope2.thumb.JPG.2774cd73cd9681c93c4cc41ac5b4e170.JPG

 

Nor do these contacts appear in the listing provided when using the "Find Contacts" button.

 

I'll pay attention at level 10 on my currently leveling toon, but I do not recall them ever appearing at level 10 either.

 

It has been a while since I have done either of the tutorial arcs, so I will take your word for it that the University is introduced there. Grym is literally in the SC University, but I don't recall text during Shining Stars explaining what the University is nor introducing the tutorial contact.  Those two arcs are also Blueside.  There might be Red/Gold equivilant arcs that send players to University, but I don't remember.  Actually, now that I type this I vaguely remember being prompted to go there in Praetoria at some point during my Side Switch Every Time run.

 

Still, they should be in the "Find Contacts" listing at level 10 and beyond at the very least, and a pop-up as you describe at level 10 would be ideal - especially if it mentions in bold red text that this is the introduction to CoH's crafting system.

The 2nd arc of the Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars tutorial arcs is given at level 10. As part of the 2nd arc of those tutorial stories you are specifically sent to the universities. Just like when you are sent to Wentworth's/Black Market and to AE, the idea is to introduce the player to that element of the game. The mission that sends you to the university does not specifically introduce you to the invention system tutorial contact, but like when you are sent to the AH and AE, you are given an opportunity to explore what is there and understand that part of the game. Yes, they could be clearer about it, and probably should, but the whole point of those missions/tutorial is to show the player other places of interest that benefit him/her. At AE, you aren't told that you can use AE to make and play missions from players as part of the tutorial, but you are made aware that it is there for you to use. The red side and blue side crafting system tutorial contacts are right there in the same room as Grym and Dean Yu with active contact marks showing them as available and with missions for the player. The only thing not present is Grym or Dean Yu telling the player that the contact is a contact, but as I said, they are already flagged as active and available contacts at level 10 and are standing right there in the room with you.

 

If players want those contacts made more apparent? As I said in my post you are quoting, I am fine with that. However, the players are still shown to the contacts as part of the Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars level 10-14 arcs. They are right there in that room waiting for the player to show any interest in them as actively available contacts with content for the player.

Edited by Rudra
Edited to remove "j" from "showing".
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1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Like so many things, the game funneling changed as the game progressed, I haven't ever been directed to go to the University for the missions there since I've been on Homecoming.

 

If you go to the University in Steel and turn left. Go past the first bank of invention tables, and you will see Admissions Officer Lenk. He is the first contact in the University missions. You run a door mission, get passed through several contacts, and are given the supplies to build an IO non-set enhancement as high as level 20 if I remember correctly.

 

The contacts still work and would talk to me at level 30 so I think you can go through the arc once per character regardless of level.

Correct. The contacts automatically unlock at level 10 and are always available until you complete their arcs. And the only way to be directed to the universities at present is to play through the tutorial arcs Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars. Where the university contacts are flagged as available with active missions for the player and are standing in the same room as the Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars mission contacts. The Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars arcs don't hold your hand and tell you that the AH, AE, and universities are available for you to use, but they do direct you to those locations for you to see and figure out.

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Maybe they could add a university or general invention contact/tutorial person to the Vanguard base in the RWZ, since it acts as a hub for many people as well, and is cross-faction.  Have said contact call out to you like the intelligence officers do as well...

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10 hours ago, Metatheory said:

+1 to the idea of bucketing salvage for crafting, not just for the markets

 

This can be done without losing the lore and flavour.... the individual salvage would remain, but any drop would be useful

 

Most of the objections in this thread are pretty much gaslighting IMHO - over focus on the OP's mention of newbies for justification without addressing the main proposal

It would certainly speed up the process of buying components. That would be very welcome.

 

Sadly, it also removes a bit of immersion.. having a "white", or a "yellow" or an "orange" drop whilst on a mission isn't quite the same as a "Runebound Armour" or whatnot.

 

I think it's worth it. 

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1 minute ago, Herotu said:

It would certainly speed up the process of buying components. That would be very welcome.

 

Sadly, it also removes a bit of immersion.. having a "white", or a "yellow" or an "orange" drop whilst on a mission isn't quite the same as a "Runebound Armour" or whatnot.

 

I think it's worth it. 

  A P P R O V E D  

You’d still get the same drops. This would simply change the recipe requirements.

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19 hours ago, Rudra said:

the tutorial arcs Hearts of Darkness and Shining Stars

 

I've never even heard of those.

What are those about and where are they?

 

14 hours ago, Herotu said:

So there's no drawbacks at all?

 

Well, the drawbacks are for the marketters.

With over 100 characters that are all involved with the market and (I'm guessing) involvement in or directly "owning" at least 10 supergroups, the game would run very slowly if I tried to build or marked based on the massive amount of stuff that was once individualized by character into one huge pool.

 

So what is the storage limit on this massive pool of ... let's start with just ... salvage?

How many pieces of Salvage can an account pool hold?

we are talking about 100+ characters with what 100-200+ salvage storage?

So more than 15,000 pieces of salvage with account-wide access?

or are we talking about limiting the salvage on an entire account to 100-200 pieces of salvage?

 

I go through thousands of pieces of salvage per week crafting items.

Throwing all the salvage into one bin would massively slow me down.

 

I like the storage and crafting system the way that it is.

If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I've never even heard of those.

What are those about and where are they?

Dr. Graves (Mercy Island) and Twinshot (Atlas) are the contacts.

 

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Well, the drawbacks are for the marketters. *snips*

 

It would work exactly like it does now in all respects except when you craft you would be able to sub any common, uncommon or rare for the salvage stated on the recipe. From the market perspective it already works the same. If you wanted to craft a LotG +global it would cost 2 commons (any) 1 uncommon (any) and 2 rares (any) but in your inventory it would look exactly like it does now, with different types and so on.

Edited by Metatheory
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3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I've never even heard of those.

What are those about and where are they?

As @Metatheory said, the Shining Stars arcs are from Twinshot (automatically loaded to your character as a contact at level 6 complete with large popup window announcing it) and the Hearts of Darkness arcs are from Dr. Graves (also automatically loaded to your character at level 6 with large popup window announcement of gaining the contact).

 

Edit: In both cases, they have 3 arcs that form their stories. A level 6-9 arc, 10-14 arc, and 15-19 arc. And they are glorified tutorials about the game.

Edited by Rudra
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21 hours ago, Metatheory said:

Dr. Graves (Mercy Island) and Twinshot (Atlas) are the contacts.

 

I've run both. I don't know in what way they are tutorials.

 

Twinshot's arc is just annoying. I see no redeeming value to it.

 

21 hours ago, Metatheory said:

It would work exactly like it does now in all respects

 

Then leave it alone.

If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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18 hours ago, Camel said:

Has this.... always been there? O_O

 

Fnord

If someone posts a reply quoting me and I don't reply, they are most probably on ignore.

Some of them even know that I have them on ignore.

But that won't stop some of them from bullying and harassing people, because some of them love to do it.

It's who they are. There is a group of them that have banded together to do it. They think that it is acceptable.

Ignore is a tool to improve your gaming experience. Don't feel bad about using it.

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29 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I've run both. I don't know in what way they are tutorials.

 

Twinshot's arc is just annoying. I see no redeeming value to it.

 

 

Then leave it alone.


 

I agree it’s annoying, but it’s definitely a tutorial. They introduce you to game concepts in those arcs.

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For my Inf, the ONLY complexity of the Enhancement crafting system that I think needs an overhaul is the User Interface when interacting with a crafting table (and I suppose when viewing recipes in hand). I think what I'd appreciate most is a character toggle choice to be able to choose between the current system that always shows EVERYTHING, like this:

  • Uncommon/Rare/Very Rare Enhancement recipes (owned)
    • alphabetic listing
    • more alphabetic listings
    • even more alphabetic listings
  • Memorized Recipes
    • alphabetic listing
      • by level
    • more alphabetic listings
      • by level
    • even more alphabetic listings
      • by level
  • Common recipes (owned)
    • alphabetic listing
      • by level
    • more alphabetic listings
      • by level
    • even more alphabetic listings
      • by level

... and a variety where I could choose to always have the top levels "collapsed" such that I could "get right to the common recipes"; this is by far my biggest peeve, it comes up when working on badges/rewards. It hits me both when I am checking the recipes for needed salvage AND when going to the table to craft. I can mitigate this a little by working in a zone where I can use the Auction House window open (to buy salvage) with the crafting table window open, but that is simply a hack.

 

Frankly: I'd be happy if the memorized recipes were moved to the bottom of this UI, as I very rarely revisit the list of memorized recipes... either to craft or to check if I have already memorized a category (usually i just use the badges window).

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I'm not going to pretend to know enough about markets in general or CoH's market in particular to say how this would affect it in any great detail, but I'm pretty sure it would. Specifically, by making people less likely to use it. For crafting purposes, at least.

 

Having all salvage of a given rarity be fungible on the market only, the way it is now, is nice because it means you're always able to buy what you need or sell what you don't, but this change would bypass that need altogether -- for good and ill. If all that's required to craft the enhancement I'm trying to make is "any old orange salvage" instead of an Alien Blood Sample specifically, then I'm not going to go to the market to buy one, and that means you're not going to sell one (of whatever type you have for sale). You know how right now you can count on any given orange drop translating into a half million inf or so? That probably goes away. The prices of invention salvage in general are probably going to bottom out pretty substantially. Would that be the end of the world? No. But it's an effect that a significant portion of the player base would absolutely feel to some degree or another.

 

I do wonder, though, if there's a less extreme version of the idea that could be implemented to provide some of the benefit but with the drawbacks being less:

  • Make salvage fungible for crafting purposes, but only for things that match in both rarity and type (arcane/tech)? So if the recipe calls for a Synthetic Intelligence Unit, you could also use a Positronic Matrix or a Rikti Alloy instead, but not an Empowered Sigil or a Mu Vestment.
  • Leave salvage requirements for set enhancements as they are, but retool common/generic enhancements to require generic components? So a common enhancement that currently wants 1 Regenerating Flesh, 1 Spirit Thorn and 1 Hydraulic Piston would ask for 3 common salvage (or 2 common arcane salvage and 1 common tech salvage, if we combine it with my previous idea).
  • Allow substitution of high-rarity salvage of any kind for specific salvage of a lower rarity? So if I had an uncommon, say a Titanium Shard, I could use it in place of any common salvage I didn't have (again, possibly limited to only tech salvage, with similar substitutions working on an arcane-for-arcane basis).

These last two are probably more complex to implement than they sound, since they would require the Invention system to be able to make decisions about when to substitute these things, and which ones, and for what, and/or they'd need additional UI to get input from the player -- if I have two pieces of salvage that could act as substitutes for one that I don't have, the decision of which one to use has to be made somehow.

 

Edited by Mjolnerd
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I’m not implying that salvage names be removed.   I am just saying that recipes could be built by any salvage of similar rarity and not require specific ones.  There is no great backstory to the fact that recipe needs an ancient bone.  So why not just say it requires 3 common salvage?  This would save a lot of space in our inventories and bases and would be so much easier to complete specific recipes without trips to the auction house or looking up which foes drop those specific items.  

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46 minutes ago, ZaranBlack said:

I’m not implying that salvage names be removed.   I am just saying that recipes could be built by any salvage of similar rarity and not require specific ones.  There is no great backstory to the fact that recipe needs an ancient bone.  So why not just say it requires 3 common salvage?  This would save a lot of space in our inventories and bases and would be so much easier to complete specific recipes without trips to the auction house or looking up which foes drop those specific items.  

Then what would be the point of the salvage names? If you just need 3 common salvage to make something for instance, then the names of said salvage serves no point other than to make some players ask why salvage has a name like Ancient Bone. All salvage would be reduced to Common Salvage, Uncommon Salvage, and Rare Salvage. And if that were implemented, it makes sense to also replace their names as Common Salvage, Uncommon Salvage, and Rare Salvage because that is all they would be, just generic rarity salvage. Even the arcane salvage and tech salvage categories would become superfluous and just go away. Welcome to the wonderful world of generics. (Which would basically kill the market.)

 

I don't understand the need to further simplify an already rather simple crafting system. All recipes tell you what they need and the recipes in the AH even give you the ability to immediately search out that salvage. And with absolutely no chance of failure, you are guaranteed to get what you try to craft without worrying about wasting resources that you then need to re-acquire to try again.

 

And we already have in-game tutorials on how the crafting system works that gives you a new IO of your choice at the end. We already have blue side and red side tutorial arcs that at level 10 send you to the universities to find out the crafting tutorial contact exists and has missions for you. (Though you do have to at least notice the contact standing there in the same room as you.) Salvage drops from foes regularly, can be bought through AE, and can be bought through the AH. With a clear list of what salvage you need for each recipe included in every recipe. As well as pop up notices/flags when you go to sell your salvage that the salvage you are trying to sell goes to a recipe you have on hand, something other crafting systems I have seen do not include. (Can't tell you how often I off-loaded salvage in FFXI only to find out I had to go either find it again or buy it from the market at inflated price to make an item I needed to make the item I wanted. And I was only at the base level of the crafting system in that game. Let's not talk about how complicated that system got according to the guild crafters.) How is the current crafting system in CoX not simple? It very much walks you through what you need to craft anything. (Edit: With no need for prerequisite tier enhancements to be incorporated as its base.)

Edited by Rudra
Edited to make "resources" plural and correct "wanted".
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