Tier 3, Epic and Patron pools: removal of prerequisite power choices

[Voltor]

You know what I mean:  to have Weave for example you need to take 2 other fighting powers first.

 

With the recent change to the main pools in terms of getting them sooner,  perhaps the need to have prerequisite powers chosen in the Tier 3/Epic/Patron powers is outmoded and should be removed.

 

Not the level requirements, just the power prerequisites.  

 

Wouldn't you like to take Weave first then maybe another power from the fighting pool or smile knowing that you have 2 choices for other pools now?

 

OR Vengeance without taking 2 other leadership powers?  Or Victory Rush?

[Rudra]

That's power creep. No.

[Psyonico]

I'm against this as well.

[Wavicle]

What I'm in favor of is the remaining power pools being made to match the Travel pools, with 3 powers available at T1.

 

That means Tough, Tactics, Intimidate, and Aid Self available at level 4 with no prereqs, but the remaining powers would continue to have their existing prereqs.

Is it power creep? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it's a really big problem? No, definitely not.

[Luminara]

[dangeraaron10]

Yep, this was gonna be unpopular.

 

The idea behind the opposition is that taking these powerful abilities takes an investment of weaker (but often still very useful) powers.  It also prevents you from just loading out your powers with nothing but top tier powers with no "filler".

 

I'm pretty grateful for the QoL we got recently with getting those powers earlier.  Think it's time to throw a bone to those who don't want more powercreep and give this thread the good ole /jranger.

 

And this is coming from someone that hates Boxing and Kick and just wants Tough amd Weave, but understands these valuable powers require an investment to get.

[kelika2]

best case scenario many people get a Defense IO mule

worst case scenario you actually have to respec your character.

 

god damn even after page 5 still so many people who didnt do their updated respec for whatever reason.  fire armor brutes in synapes complaining when all they have is one attack and all 4 power pools at that level still

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Voltor said:

perhaps the need to have prerequisite powers chosen in the Tier 3/Epic/Patron powers is outmoded and should be removed.

It's not.

/jranger

[Greycat]

No.  Just no.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I'd personally rather just some of the epic/power pool tier 1 and 2s get buffed. Not that they all need it (especially hasten which feels like it's created this god awful balance blackhole around it), but I know it'd be kind of nice for fighting's attacks. And maybe new animations because, honestly, jab and kick are kind of dumb looking (I get they're not meant to show disciplined fighting and more 'brawling' but, c'mon we've got so many better punching and kicking animations)

[biostem]

Use up the power pick if you want that other power from the pool.  Builds should require some thought...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

why not just eliminate punch and kick from the fighting pool entirely lol jk. Power trees are a large part of the rpg experience. maybe improve the earlier powers so they are more viable and not just stepping stones

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

why not just eliminate punch and kick from the fighting pool entirely lol jk. Power trees are a large part of the rpg experience. maybe improve the earlier powers so they are more viable and not just stepping stones

 

This tbh. The root issue to me is that often the "good stuff" is locked behind powers that are more or less an obstacle to get "the good" rather than being solid choices in their own right. Best example being boxing + kick, where taking both does give you an awesome cross punch but there is little reason to use them over it.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

This tbh. The root issue to me is that often the "good stuff" is locked behind powers that are more or less an obstacle to get "the good" rather than being solid choices in their own right. Best example being boxing + kick, where taking both does give you an awesome cross punch but there is little reason to use them over it.

 

easily remedied with a combo system where using cross punch after kick deals crit dmg.  they improved stealth pool and teleport maybe its on the short list for modifications? 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

easily remedied with a combo system where using cross punch after kick deals crit dmg.  they improved stealth pool and teleport maybe its on the short list for modifications? 

That wouldn’t fix the problem. The powers need to be good on their own, not only if you take a tier 3 in the same set.

[biostem]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That wouldn’t fix the problem. The powers need to be good on their own, not only if you take a tier 3 in the same set.

The problem is that taking a pool power that is similar to something you already have, (boxing or kick for melee characters), will not be as good as their primary or secondary powers, which is by design,.  For someone who does not have access to such direct attacks, they may be more appealing.  Even then, those attacks are never going to have the kind of utility or appeal as hasten...

[Rudra]

The problem is players' expectations. The expectation that if they have to take a melee attack from a power pool then it should at least be as good as their primary or secondary sets rather than a gap filler supplementary attack aimed at characters lacking melee attacks that the player wants to have melee attacks on either for concept or for when things get in their face. The expectation that players should be able to min-max their characters without having to make choices other than which uber power they will use. (The expectation that a game designed over progression against enemies set at a nominal difficulty so that any AT with any power choices can clear the missions either still requires a min-max approach to deal with or will somehow still give the desired challenge despite min-maxing beyond the default progressive development of the game's ability to rise to. Hence the demand for ever harder difficulties after players min-max their characters. And yet the demand to keep growing ever more powerful continues.)

 

It's in every thread asking to skip the prerequisites. Is the character at the point where those extra power slots are needed somewhere else to be able to play the game and handily defeat every mob they encounter? No. It is purely about achieving cheat code levels of godliness.

 

You may now thumbs down this comment into oblivion. I know I am making a very unpopular comment. Or respond with a comment that will prove me wrong. I would really like to see one.

[Wavicle]

No it’s not about godliness and cheat codes.

 

It’s about wasting power picks. Now that I think about it, my suggestion above in this thread actually does not address the real problem at all.

 

The problem, using just the Fighting pool as an example, is that Kick and Boxing  by themselves are no good at all. Contrary to my previous response in this thread, I have absolutely no issue with the requirement that I have to take a power in order to get Tough and two for Weave. My issue is simply that the options to fill that requirement are worthless. This is not the case with Leadership, and it’s debatable with Medicine and Presence, but in the case of Fighting it’s really clear.

 

I am happy to keep taking a prerequisite for Tough, but it shouldn’t be so terrible.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wavicle

[Rudra]

Then make a suggestion that buffs Boxing and Kick that still keeps them less than the Melee ATs' primaries/secondaries. My comment is in response to those that simply don't want to have to deal with prerequisite power choices.

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

My issue is simply that the options to fill that requirement are worthless.

Objectively false.

 

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It’s about wasting power pics.

Your choices should have some weight.  If "wasting" a power pick is such a big deal to you, then forego tough and/or weave.

 

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Kick and Tough by themselves are no good at all.

Also false.

 

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I am happy to keep taking a prerequisite for Tough, but it shouldn’t be so terrible.

Seems contrary to your "It's about wasting power pics" comment.

[JasperStone]

Fighting is one of the sets of Power Pools available to all Heroes and Villains.

These powers are excellent for those who are looking for a few low cost powers to defend themselves. The combat powers Boxing, Kick and Cross Punch synergize with each other, such that ownership of each power will provide bonuses to the other two. Additionally, Fighting synergizes with the Brawl power, which will gain benefits for each of the combat powers owned from this set.

Fighting Synergy also boosts the effectiveness of Brawl. The debuffs all have a 10% chance of occurrence.

• Brawl gains 10% tohit and 10% recharge rate debuffs from both Boxing and Kick.
• Cross Punch grants Brawl 10% regeneration and 10% recovery debuffs.

Pool powers aren't as effective as their cousins in primary and secondary power sets. However, they can be used to cover a weakness in your power sets 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

The problem is players' expectations. The expectation that if they have to take a melee attack from a power pool then it should at least be as good as their primary or secondary sets rather than a gap filler supplementary attack aimed at characters lacking melee attacks that the player wants to have melee attacks on either for concept or for when things get in their face. The expectation that players should be able to min-max their characters without having to make choices other than which uber power they will use. (The expectation that a game designed over progression against enemies set at a nominal difficulty so that any AT with any power choices can clear the missions either still requires a min-max approach to deal with or will somehow still give the desired challenge despite min-maxing beyond the default progressive development of the game's ability to rise to. Hence the demand for ever harder difficulties after players min-max their characters. And yet the demand to keep growing ever more powerful continues.)

 

It's in every thread asking to skip the prerequisites. Is the character at the point where those extra power slots are needed somewhere else to be able to play the game and handily defeat every mob they encounter? No. It is purely about achieving cheat code levels of godliness.

 

You may now thumbs down this comment into oblivion. I know I am making a very unpopular comment. Or respond with a comment that will prove me wrong. I would really like to see one.

These are low-cost powers that do a lot.

I often take Kick because of the boost to Brawl. Kick is a good "get off me" attack with the Knockback.

I for sure went after synergy with one character and it is pretty good

The last wiki quote goes along with what @Rudra is saying...

 

 

[Greycat]

I'll often take Kick just because of where it lands due to character size.

 

Don't need to slot for amusement.

[dangeraaron10]

6 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I'll often take Kick just because of where it lands due to character size.

 

Don't need to slot for amusement.

 

That's why I opt for Kick over Boxing.  Sometimes you think that Hellion isn't worth your fireball and just gets your boot in their face while they go flying.

[JasperStone]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I'll often take Kick just because of where it lands due to character size.

 

Don't need to slot for amusement.

I love it on my tall characters.

Big kick to the chest or face depending ...

[Nayeh]

Some of y'all are really passionate about powers that don't even get enhanced or placed on the power tray.