Ethereal Blast

[biostem]

Inspired by the changes made to the MM blast attacks in the Necromancy set, how about an entire blast set whose gimmick is that said blasts can summon temporary pets!  I imagine that not every single attack power would summon pets, but most probably would.  Some could, however, have some interaction or benefit based upon the number of temporary pets so-summoned - perhaps extra damage, KD, or so forth.  To differentiate it a bit from the existing dark blast powers with the effect, how about repurposing the Peacebringer light attacks, and instead of the ghostly apparitions summoned by Necromancy, use the apparitions from Night Ward.  I don't  have a specific breakdown of the set in mind, besides wanting the temporary pet summons and using brighter animations.  Your input is welcomed.  Thanks!

Edited February 19, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

Would you be willing to accept the inflated END cost and reduced damage of every power in the set like MMs get to balance this out?

[biostem]

23 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Would you be willing to accept the inflated END cost and reduced damage of every power in the set like MMs get to balance this out?

That doesn't hold true for every other blast set that MMs also gain access to, only for the MMs themselves, and such costs didn't go up when these new abilities were added.  

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

That doesn't hold true for every other blast set that MMs also gain access to, only for the MMs themselves, and such costs didn't go up when these new abilities were added.  

I thought only the Necromancy dark blast attacks got this. So that is what I am using as reference since that was an improvement on MM attacks that may not have been specifically asked for, but was in general asked for.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I thought only the Necromancy dark blast attacks got this. So that is what I am using as reference since that was an improvement on MM attacks that may not have been specifically asked for, but was in general asked for.

Right, and the MM blasts already had the extra end cost before that update, so obviously said extra end cost is not to take into account the ability to summon those temporary pets.  Further, if this hypothetical blast set had no secondary effect besides the temporary pets or other effects based upon them, then there still would be no justification for the tradeoffs you proposed.

Edited February 19, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

If the devs had further increased the costs of MM attacks and/or further reduced the damage of MM attacks as part of making them more appealing to the players to choose, then they would have needed their sanity checked. The pets were added to help bring the MM attacks more in line with other sets despite MMs relying on their pets for most combat. Because you are drawing specifically from a MM power set rather than the other way around as was my take on the MM AT's creation, my take is that the END cost would be higher and the damage lower to account for auto-summoning pets that in turn also attack and inflict damage. I'm not saying the END cost would need to be as high as MMs or the damage as low as MMs, but given the advantage of auto-summoning pets to do further damage to your foes, this seems like a fair trade off to me. Otherwise, why bother with any other set when this new set gives you not only added damage like Fire's DoT, but does so in the form of pets that are free to attack all enemies for 90 seconds each.

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If the devs had further increased the costs of MM attacks and/or further reduced the damage of MM attacks as part of making them more appealing to the players to choose, then they would have needed their sanity checked. The pets were added to help bring the MM attacks more in line with other sets despite MMs relying on their pets for most combat. Because you are drawing specifically from a MM power set rather than the other way around as was my take on the MM AT's creation, my take is that the END cost would be higher and the damage lower to account for auto-summoning pets that in turn also attack and inflict damage. I'm not saying the END cost would need to be as high as MMs or the damage as low as MMs, but given the advantage of auto-summoning pets to do further damage to your foes, this seems like a fair trade off to me. Otherwise, why bother with any other set when this new set gives you not only added damage like Fire's DoT, but does so in the form of pets that are free to attack all enemies for 90 seconds each.

Your logic doesn't follow - you don't see everyone using sonic blast for its -res, you don't see everyone using seismic blast for seismic shockwaves.  You don't see everyone playing necro for the temporary pets, either.  The temporary pets are a cool feature, and one I would like to see ported over to a new set, but they certainly aren't game breaking, nor are they uber effective - they're just different.  Heck, bio armor is often touted as way better than other armor sets, yet it certainly hasn't supplanted them all.  "Crabberminds" can summon tons of pets, and suffer none of the extra end costs of MMs.  Also, Thugs don't get an extra penalty for having gangwar...

Edited February 19, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

*shrug* I asked you if you would be fine with that, the answer is obviously "no".

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

*shrug* I asked you if you would be fine with that, the answer is obviously "no".

Because your premise is built upon faulty reasoning - what extra penalty do any of the other blast sets incur for having their special effects?  The answer is "none".

 

This all plays upon the second part of your statement, namely the "to balance this out" part - that's where my contention lies.  No extra end cost to "balance this out" is warranted in this case.  The specific damage numbers, temporary pet duration, and so forth, would be the variables taken into consideration...

Edited February 19, 2023 by biostem

[Rudra]

And this was my contention:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity.html?entity=pets_enslaved_specter

My concern is that despite how others may tell me that the specters are not that good, their listed stats in City of Data is actually very good. A Mag 4 taunt for 6.8 seconds built into their only attack which does not terrible damage at 17.0767 negative damage (for an auto-summoned pet) per hit which has a 1.1 base accuracy and they can use it every 2 seconds as a 90 second duration pet. (I can't really make sense of their Fade power which is supposed to kill them over time.) As contrasted to Fire Blast's DoT of 9.3842 fire damage every second for 3.1 seconds after a half second delay but only affects the single hit target.

 

I wasn't going to respond further to this thread. You had made your argument and I was only asking if you would be fine with a penalty. Your edit to your preceding comment is what prompted me to respond again. I'm not trying to argue against the OP. I don't really care. The idea sounds fun. I'm just worried about balance. So whatever. I asked a question. Now I posted why I asked it. Not going to try and change your mind, just explaining my side of this discussion. I don't have a horse in this race.

[biostem]

@Rudra have you actually played the set?  Try it out.  It's a fun gimmick, but not ground-breaking, and if you further stripped away any -tohit or other such effects in lieu of the pet summoning, (not to mention that the pets this proposed set would summon wouldn't be the same as the specters), you'd realize that what a spreadsheet or data entry says does not necessarily translate to how the set or power plays out in-game...

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

@Rudra have you actually played the set?  Try it out.  It's a fun gimmick, but not ground-breaking, and if you further stripped away any -tohit or other such effects in lieu of the pet summoning, (not to mention that the pets this proposed set would summon wouldn't be the same as the specters), you'd realize that what a spreadsheet or data entry says does not necessarily translate to how the set or power plays out in-game...

Not since before the changes. Not a fan of the Necromancy power set. It and the Beast Mastery set put me to sleep every time I try them.

[Rudra]

One thing I would request you consider though? While I know ghosts and apparitions are ethereal, saying it is an ethereal blast set doesn't invoke that imagery to me. I would recommend a name like "Spirit Blast" or "Spectral Blast" if the set summons apparitions with all its attacks. Or not. <Name> Blast as a name doesn't really invoke spectral summoning to me. *shrug*

[Fade]

A possible neat mechanic:
The single target blasts create little ghosts, that linger around for a little while (say, 6 seconds to be conservative).

The AoE attacks can damage those ghosts, and when a ghost is defeated by its owner, it causes an additional little AoE attack around itself.

Perhaps one of the single-target attacks can, instead of summoning a ghost, be cast on a ghost to consume it for a self-heal or endurance bonus.

On second thought, 6 seconds is VERY conservative for the lifetime of the ghosts. It seems like the Necromancy ghosts can last for 90 seconds, though there is a limit of 1 active per attack. Maybe they could last for 15 seconds? The point is essentially that they could be a temporary resource to be used, rather than an army to be slowly summoned over the course of a fight.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Fade
Numbers

[biostem]

36 minutes ago, Rudra said:

One thing I would request you consider though? While I know ghosts and apparitions are ethereal, saying it is an ethereal blast set doesn't invoke that imagery to me. I would recommend a name like "Spirit Blast" or "Spectral Blast" if the set summons apparitions with all its attacks. Or not. <Name> Blast as a name doesn't really invoke spectral summoning to me. *shrug*

It's not supposed to specifically be about summoning ghosts, though.  I chose "Ethereal" because of the old concept of "ether", a hypothetical material that kind of made up space.  I want a degree of vagueness, so it could be spirits, hard light constructs, nanotech, whatever you want.  I don't want to tie it too strongly to any particular origin.  Maybe you *do* summon spirits, maybe you form these temporary entities from your own psyche.  You coalesce blasts and temporary "things" from the ether that fight on your behalf...

[Doc_Scorpion]

I dunno.  I think this might play better as a 'troller primary (with an actual pet in the T9), where various pets confuse, fear, mezz, etc...  I can't put my finger on why, it just feels that way.

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I dunno.  I think this might play better as a 'troller primary (with an actual pet in the T9), where various pets confuse, fear, mezz, etc...  I can't put my finger on why, it just feels that way.

Well, consider how gravity control is more "blastery" than other control sets, and this could be a more "controllery" blast set... 

[MirrorDarkly]

I'd love to see a whole set based around this mechanic. Having the T9 summon a whole horde of ghosts would be amazingly fun!