Highest single target DPS assuming capped damage and recharge?

[SeraphimKensai]

Given permanently at the damage cap and max recharge, I think it's a EM/Bio Brute as Brute has a higher damage cap then  other ATs. I haven't ran the numbers but I think a damage capped brute would outpace other options.

[Sir Myshkin]

9 hours ago, nihilii said:

Several assumptions of standard fully IOed builds in, say, Pylon testing, already shift in capped damage/recharge/recovery/survivability scenarios:

- personal +dam isn't as important

- pure DPA is more important

- special damage is more important (crits, global procs)

- attack chains will trim a lot of fat (a powerset with high DPA variance might top a powerset with smoothed out DPA?)

 

I think what's got you stuck is thinking inside the box of what it means to be "capped" in general. If a test gets performed at a set and equal level, and then I change a metric of that test equally across the board then most of the board should stay relative to its peers. In this case, if I had a base line damage, and I then capped it, the performance should play out the same, just ideally with faster times. An IO run was taken into consideration to provide for the consideration of things like global recharge improving total dynamic performance too, so that all got attributed.

 

Basically take everything you're stuck on above, and forget about it for a minute, and take that thread and unpack it. This was the optimal performance ranking (using an IO build and an SO build averaged out) to clear a standardized map with minions, lieutenants, bosses, and elite bosses. How quickly could a basic standard build (all with the same slotting and same secondary slotted identically) effectively clear a standardized mission format.

 

 

Now we take this list and target your search for single target performers that qualify: Claws, Titan Weapons, Dark Melee, and War Mace. Energy Melee would be here as well in its current form, the thread this test was performed on predates its change. Next analyzing the conditional values of the abilities in each set against the conditions of the test, Claws and Titan Weapons both scaled very well due to a lot of strong AoE ability backed by strong single target components, however War Mace comes in with just incredible ST ability with lower AoE and is is a contender still. Dark Melee and Energy Melee would be the biggest stars being primarily ST with next to no considerable AoE compared to the other sets, and knowing that Titan Weapons got trimmed down in the years following this original test, I would say the most relevant choices of top contention would be these:

 

• Energy Melee
• Dark Melee
• War Mace

Of course this only accounts for Melee, so you've got several other AT's to go and evaluate in the same kind of way to really get the answer you're looking for.

 

Or... you could just look through the Pylon bashing thread and find the top contenders and run with those as being your likely bets (excluding MM's).

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

I think what's got you stuck is thinking inside the box of what it means to be "capped" in general. If a test gets performed at a set and equal level, and then I change a metric of that test equally across the board then most of the board should stay relative to its peers. In this case, if I had a base line damage, and I then capped it, the performance should play out the same, just ideally with faster times. An IO run was taken into consideration to provide for the consideration of things like global recharge improving total dynamic performance too, so that all got attributed.

 

This isn't really true.  For example, one of your highest performers is Claws.  A big part of Claws' DPS comes from its ability to sustain +60-+90% damage bonus by spamming Follow Up.  But in the situations that @nihilii is specifying, spamming Follow Up is super useless, because you're already capped on damage.  Similarly, the ability of the Stalker to use Build Up very frequently is also useless in these conditions -- Build Up won't increase your damage one iota.

 

More relevantly for everything, "maxxed global recharge" is a huge deal.  There are sets that have one or two really strong performing attacks, but they're mixed in with the rest of the set being mediocre.  If you get recharge divided by five for free, you can potentially do an entirely different ST attack chain that drops some of the mediocre attacks (because now the good attacks can be linked up into a seamless chain, while they can't under normal conditions).

 

This is why I think it's likely that Energy Melee probably isn't the best performer in a recharge-capped situation -- I think that some of Energy Melee's normal dominance comes from having a bunch of strong attacks that can be chained together fairly well.  A set like, I don't know, War Mace, might now be able to create an attack chain consisting solely of heavy hitters that get full crits instead of Energy Melee's heavy hitters that get anemic crits.  That said, maybe 1s cast time Energy Transfer is just so dominant that it still comes out on top.

 

Ultimately, to really answer this question, we'd have to have at least a few dozen people actually test it, and I think the issue is that it's hard to test (arranging these conditions is non-trivial), and the answer to the question is pretty academic (at basically no point in the "real" game will a build that's carefully optimized for "everything-capped" be useful), so it's hard to imagine that testing happening.

Edited February 23, 2023 by aethereal

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Given permanently at the damage cap and max recharge, I think it's a EM/Bio Brute as Brute has a higher damage cap then  other ATs. I haven't ran the numbers but I think a damage capped brute would outpace other options.

 

I thought Brute damage cap was lowered to keep them beneath a certain other AT?

[SeraphimKensai]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I thought Brute damage cap was lowered to keep them beneath a certain other AT?

Well it was lowered from its old 775% to 700% on homecoming, its still higher than the other ATs. Iirc, Blaster, Scrapper, Stalker and Corruptor get up to 500% and the other AT's up to 400%.

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Well it was lowered from its old 775% to 700% on homecoming, its still higher than the other ATs. Iirc, Blaster, Scrapper, Stalker and Corruptor get up to 500% and the other AT's up to 400%.

 

But Brutes start with a lower base and scalar.

[aethereal]

58 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

But Brutes start with a lower base and scalar.

 

Yes.  Specifically, .75 * 7 = 5.25 while 1.125 * 5 = 5.625.  So Scrappers at damage cap will do more damage than Brutes without crits, and then crits would take them to absurd heights.  There's just no way that Brutes are even in this conversation -- the "rules" of this thread hugely disadvantage them.

 

I looked at Blasters and as @nihilii says, their base damage lines are much lower than Scrappers', and they don't have anything like crit lines to leverage the increased damage caps.  They're pretty out of the conversation as well.  Corruptors miiiiiiiiight have something going on?  Their scourge lines leverage the damage cap, and if their secondary gave them a big res debuff, that could multiply damage in a way that maybe could possibly lead to them pulling ahead of Scrappers?  But probably not, they start off at like half of the Scrapper damage lines (before crits).

 

I don't know about Masterminds, I can't even really think through what these things mean for a MM.  Other than a MM, it's hard for me to see how these rules could lead to anyone challenging Scrapper supremacy.  Crits are too good.  And Scrappers can broker "+400% free recharge" into more crits much more efficiently than Stalkers can.  So.  Scrappers.

[Sir Myshkin]

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

This isn't really true.  For example, one of your highest performers is Claws.

 

No it still applies, the other sets have access to their own assortments of BU effects under the same testing expectations, and the IO conditions that the builds were tested with are not high-end so it's not looking at peak Claws, and frankly removing Follow Up from the scenario actually advantage Claws even further in favor of Shockwave or Eviscerate.

 

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

That said, maybe 1s cast time Energy Transfer is just so dominant that it still comes out on top.

 

You already answered yourself on this. Energy Transfer is an attack that already does 700-800 damage on its own, and the argument is about damage capping it? And then to add to it Energy Punch and Bone Smasher are also some of the hardest hitting melee attacks available?

 

6 hours ago, aethereal said:

Ultimately, to really answer this question, we'd have to have at least a few dozen people actually test it, and I think the issue is that it's hard to test

 

Sadly I don't think it really has to be tested, you just need a capable data entry sheet to plug in the attacks, run the optimal chain out and get the corresponding value. Really it's just a matter of identifying the most likely candidates to start with (which are all pretty obvious), and go from there.

 

As a side note, having given some additional consideration to this idea, my bet is somewhere between Stalkers and Corrutpors assuming the Stalkers get their AT-O procs, consistent AS hits... bonkers, but a damage capped Corr dropping Scourge on a debuffed GM... that's some tasty pizza.

[InvaderStych]

4 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Sadly I don't think it really has to be tested, you just need a capable data entry sheet to plug in the attacks, run the optimal chain out and get the corresponding value. Really it's just a matter of identifying the most likely candidates to start with (which are all pretty obvious), and go from there.

 

As a side note, having given some additional consideration to this idea, my bet is somewhere between Stalkers and Corrutpors assuming the Stalkers get their AT-O procs, consistent AS hits... bonkers, but a damage capped Corr dropping Scourge on a debuffed GM... that's some tasty pizza.

 

Yup.

 

If the original question was one of abstraction, and I submit that it was since we are assuming Damage/Recharge cap without accounting for the powers within sets that contribute to those caps - ie discounting the use of Focus to maintain high +dmg numbers - then it is simply a mathematical abstraction.

 

Now .. do I know how to build such a sheet? Not entirely. I have some thoughts, but implementation is likely above my pay grade. 🤣

[nihilii]

7 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

If the original question was one of abstraction, and I submit that it was since we are assuming Damage/Recharge cap without accounting for the powers within sets that contribute to those caps - ie discounting the use of Focus to maintain high +dmg numbers - then it is simply a mathematical abstraction.

I made the thread to orient my thinking regarding practical scenarios, but I didn't want to get into it in order not to shoehorn / distract from the conversation.

Primarily buffbots (accounts 2&3 + friends), or heavy team situations (i.e., "what attack chain do I switch to, and out of my roster, who is my best character when i'm in a league with ludicrous buffs").

Edited February 23, 2023 by nihilii

[brasilgringo]

16 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

 

I think what's got you stuck is thinking inside the box of what it means to be "capped" in general. If a test gets performed at a set and equal level, and then I change a metric of that test equally across the board then most of the board should stay relative to its peers. In this case, if I had a base line damage, and I then capped it, the performance should play out the same, just ideally with faster times. An IO run was taken into consideration to provide for the consideration of things like global recharge improving total dynamic performance too, so that all got attributed.

 

Basically take everything you're stuck on above, and forget about it for a minute, and take that thread and unpack it. This was the optimal performance ranking (using an IO build and an SO build averaged out) to clear a standardized map with minions, lieutenants, bosses, and elite bosses. How quickly could a basic standard build (all with the same slotting and same secondary slotted identically) effectively clear a standardized mission format.

 

 

Now we take this list and target your search for single target performers that qualify: Claws, Titan Weapons, Dark Melee, and War Mace. Energy Melee would be here as well in its current form, the thread this test was performed on predates its change. Next analyzing the conditional values of the abilities in each set against the conditions of the test, Claws and Titan Weapons both scaled very well due to a lot of strong AoE ability backed by strong single target components, however War Mace comes in with just incredible ST ability with lower AoE and is is a contender still. Dark Melee and Energy Melee would be the biggest stars being primarily ST with next to no considerable AoE compared to the other sets, and knowing that Titan Weapons got trimmed down in the years following this original test, I would say the most relevant choices of top contention would be these:

 

• Energy Melee
• Dark Melee
• War Mace

Of course this only accounts for Melee, so you've got several other AT's to go and evaluate in the same kind of way to really get the answer you're looking for.

 

Or... you could just look through the Pylon bashing thread and find the top contenders and run with those as being your likely bets (excluding MM's).

 

I think the test was pre the Battle Axe changes too.

[nihilii]

Fiery Melee got some good buffs as well!

[InvaderStych]

18 hours ago, nihilii said:

Fiery Melee got some good buffs as well!

 

Can Confirm.

 

Fire/Stone/Blaze stalker build, mostly without Procs, has been very good.  If I proc'd out Char and used it in my chain it might be even more insane for single target than it is.

 

Which reminds me, we should set some parameters here maybe?

 

External Buffs:

 

- Recharge Cap

- Damage Cap

- Survival a Given.

 

Does that sound about right?

 

Personal Buffs:

 

- Accuracy/Damage at the ED Cap?

- Assume Recovery/Endurance a non-issue?

- Proc Bombs on the table or too random?

[Gobbledigook]

I suspect it would be a EM/Bio Scrapper, although a Mastermind or Veat Crab with pets may be interesting. Are debuffs from Cold for example allowed?

Edited February 24, 2023 by Gobbledegook

[ninja surprise]

On 2/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

Basically take everything you're stuck on above, and forget about it for a minute, and take that thread and unpack it. This was the optimal performance ranking (using an IO build and an SO build averaged out) to clear a standardized map with minions, lieutenants, bosses, and elite bosses. How quickly could a basic standard build (all with the same slotting and same secondary slotted identically) effectively clear a standardized mission format.

 

 

 

 

Need to re-run this on the first mission of Mender Ramiel's arc where you go to the future in Ouroboros with all the AVs in there and all of your stats are capped. See how the sets perform vs the Titan and all the other AVs.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

 

Need to re-run this on the first mission of Mender Ramiel's arc where you go to the future in Ouroboros with all the AVs in there and all of your stats are capped. See how the sets perform vs the Titan and all the other AVs.

I think you get a huge damage proc in that mission, though.

[SomeGuy]

Melee Defender with 6 slotted brawl.

[SomeGuy]

16 hours ago, CR Americas Angel said:

Demons/Cold Mastermind

 

 

Serious question, I've suspected it would be Thugs/Cold during Gang War. Why ya think Demons/Cold? For sustained I would think this (Demons/Cold) or a VEAT.

Edited February 25, 2023 by SomeGuy

[Shred Monkey]

I just went through my spreadsheets quick and plugged in +300 damage bonus to see what was jumping out.  Energy Stalker jumped up there for sure.  But Street Justice Stalker jumped out ahead.   I think that set leverages the procs and critical hits better than any other. 

 

My spreedsheets have actual attack chains I've run in game, so it's possible that sacrificing some survivability for recharge could push something else up there.

 

I do think that that mention of mastermind is interesting in this scenario... achieving a condition where your pets actually have capped levels of damage, tohit, and recharge is more difficult to achieve then on a player character, but if you could do it... it seems likely that's a good option.

[Outrider_01]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:48 AM, aethereal said:

Fiery Aura is interesting.  180 second base recharge on Fiery Embrace, 20 second duration.  That means an uptime under constant maxed recharge conditions of more than 50% (20 seconds on, 16 seconds off, repeat), and unlike most things that would conditionally add damage, Fiery Embrace is operative (since it doesn't add a damage bonus, but rather adds another effect to a power, which is then enhanced by your +all-the-damage).

 

I use even con level 50 bosses for minor tests of capability, CoT bosses have no real resists.  Anything else is dependent on outside buffs like team mates and it just gets better against higher level stuff.

 

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

 

2 50 CoT bosses with 2570 hps, EM/Fire brute without burn and no incarnate level shift, max damage cap with inspiration, Fiery Embrace, EF and TF only, 2 shot each inside of 12 seconds.

2970 damage for 2 shotting each one, with 150 damage applied to the brute for the hitpoint transfer.

 

Basically 6000 damage in 10 seconds and the damage aura was off but Fiery Embrace which is 83 a tick at damage cap + Embrace.

 

Could not squeeze burn into this build, but the concept was a PVE tank with fire armor and not be locked to a spot.  Resists are decent but 4 orange can cap all but toxic/psi.

[Outrider_01]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:48 AM, aethereal said:

Fiery Aura is interesting.  180 second base recharge on Fiery Embrace, 20 second duration.  That means an uptime under constant maxed recharge conditions of more than 50% (20 seconds on, 16 seconds off, repeat), and unlike most things that would conditionally add damage, Fiery Embrace is operative (since it doesn't add a damage bonus, but rather adds another effect to a power, which is then enhanced by your +all-the-damage).

 

I use even con level 50 bosses for minor tests of capability, CoT bosses have no real resists.  Anything else is dependent on outside buffs like team mates and it just gets better against higher level stuff.

 

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

 

2 50 CoT bosses with 2570 hps, EM/Fire brute without burn and no incarnate level shift, max damage cap with inspiration, Fiery Embrace, EF and TF only, 2 shot each inside of 12 seconds.

2970 damage for 2 shotting each one, with 150 damage applied to the brute for the hitpoint transfer.

 

Basically 6000 damage in 10 seconds and the damage aura was off but Fiery Embrace which is 83 a tick at damage cap + Embrace.

 

Could not squeeze burn into this build, but the concept was a PVE tank with fire armor and not be locked to a spot.  Resists are decent but 4 orange can cap all but toxic/psi.

[Outrider_01]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:48 AM, aethereal said:

Fiery Aura is interesting.  180 second base recharge on Fiery Embrace, 20 second duration.  That means an uptime under constant maxed recharge conditions of more than 50% (20 seconds on, 16 seconds off, repeat), and unlike most things that would conditionally add damage, Fiery Embrace is operative (since it doesn't add a damage bonus, but rather adds another effect to a power, which is then enhanced by your +all-the-damage).

 

I use even con level 50 bosses for minor tests of capability, CoT bosses have no real resists.  Anything else is dependent on outside buffs like team mates and it just gets better against higher level stuff.

 

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 291.94 points of Smashing damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Total Focus for 747.39 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 1331.3 points of Energy damage.
[02:05] You hit Death Mage with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 599.08 points of Fire damage.
[02:05] You hit Scarlet Rebel with your Energy Transfer (Focused) for 149.92 points of unresistable Special damage.

 

2 50 CoT bosses with 2570 hps, EM/Fire brute without burn and no incarnate level shift, max damage cap with inspiration, Fiery Embrace, EF and TF only, 2 shot each inside of 12 seconds.

2970 damage for 2 shotting each one, with 150 damage applied to the brute for the hitpoint transfer.

 

Basically 6000 damage in 10 seconds and the damage aura was off but Fiery Embrace which is 83 a tick at damage cap + Embrace.

 

Could not squeeze burn into this build, but the concept was a PVE tank with fire armor and not be locked to a spot.  Resists are decent but 4 orange can cap all but toxic/psi.

[Doomguide2005]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:14 PM, ninja surprise said:

 

Need to re-run this on the first mission of Mender Ramiel's arc where you go to the future in Ouroboros with all the AVs in there and all of your stats are capped. See how the sets perform vs the Titan and all the other AVs.

Lol.

Took a brand new level 50 Plant/Cold Controller in there today.  They didn't herd up very well but i got several attacking me.  My Fly Trap could take them all on and defeat them while I went for 🍩 in Faultline.  And yes even my pet was showing a very steady stream of triple digit damage while standing unscathed while they whiffed.  I don't think you can lose.

 

PS Edit:  memory is a bit hazy but I think my controller was generating the same damage as my scrapper did when she did it months ago.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Doomguide2005

[lemming]

6 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

PS Edit:  memory is a bit hazy but I think my controller was generating the same damage as my scrapper did when she did it months ago.

Most damage is capped at 321 per hit.  I occasionally see something else do better, but I haven't spent time to track it

[nihilii]

In this Mender Ramiel mission, the Incarnate DoT proc you get ends up outpacing any other kind of damage you may have. A defender spamming 1s animation attacks would outDPS a scrapper using 2s animation attacks.