Officially Unofficial Weekly Discussion #26: Something Wicked This Way Comes (Red Side)

[SeraphimKensai]

Welcome back for another week. This week while I'm sure you're busy playing page 6, I wanted to bring the discussion to Red Side. It's clear there's significantly more players that gravitate towards Blue side then Red.

 

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side? If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side? What do you think about the mission content of red side? How about.the atmosphere/weather? What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do? What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Thanks again folks.

[FupDup]

Generally the way I do it is that I make a redside toon for every 1-2 bluesiders to keep things from getting too stale. I think the content is generally fine from a quality perspective, but I kinda don't really like being evil most of the time. And I find it easier to make hero/vigilante alt concepts than villains. 

 

For changes I think a higher quantity of content would help since certain level brackets tend to feel repetitive due to far fewer zones and contacts redside than blueside. I'd especially like some more Sharkhead contacts that don't have you fight Scrapyarders (almost every Shark contact has you fight them) because I really don't like the union busting overtones. 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

 

The original design required players to run newspaper missions and rob banks to make up for a lack of content.  That design hasn't changed.  Even with 2xp and patrol experience, and the Find Contact option, I haven't been able to progress through contact chains without resorting to newspaper/bank missions to bridge gaps.  I've leveled several heroes/vigilantes without speaking to a detective to unlock police scanner missions.  I out-level Praetorian contacts so fast that the only way I can figure out what's going on is by returning via Ouroboros.  But playing a villain/rogue, I have no cohesive story and no choice but to play filler content.

 

 

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

1%.  I try to level a villain/rogue once every few months.  I Null to Paragon when I'm left with nothing but filler to carry me until the next contact is available.  I try to stick it out at least until I can run the doppelganger missions, which I do like, but beyond that, there's nothing compelling, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Okay, maybe 2%, since I also use PPPs on a few characters and have to run one arc to unlock those.

 

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about the mission content of red side?

 

Too much Arachnos and Longbow.

 

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How about.the atmosphere/weather?

 

Bland and disappointing.

 

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do? What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Not being required to run newspaper/bank missions to progress.  Better story lines.  Better missions.  Better zone design.  Fewer escorts.  Not fighting Arachnos or Longbow every other mission.  Not being sent to the farthest fucking door in Nerva Fucking Archipelago by a fucking contact in a different fucking zone who I still have to fucking run back to when I fucking complete the fucking mission.

 

Just talking about it disgruntles me.  Fuck the Rogue Isles.

[cranebump]

In general, I like the Content on the red side much better than blue side, but some of that is due to less familiarity with red side. I agree with the issue involving having to run paper missions and banks. Although, when I think about it, hitting a bank would seem to be a bad guy thing to do.

 

It’s been a long while since I dedicated myself to running a character all the way up from one to 50 over there. Maybe I will make that my next goal. I echo the idea that starting read and then converting to rogue or vigilante seems more organic when you start villain.

 

To address the questions put forth in the thread, I would say I spend probably less than one percent running anything red, and that is usually when someone has a task force. I do enjoy the atmosphere. Even just navigating the various areas seems more interesting than running around in paragon city.

Edited May 3, 2023 by cranebump

[Greycat]

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How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

 

There's a red side? Next you're going to tell me there's a third side that actually has people playing it... What?

 

Red side's ... eh, never really been well thought out, to me. For a myriad of reasons. It's ... like the wrong reactions to what some people were saying about blue, mixed with "um, how do we write for villains in this same system?" People complained about "too many" zones blueside, so we got these supercondensed zones redside... which never have a chance to fully develop any sort of character besides "nobody's heard of a street sweeper" and which you go through the same... zones... same... environment...same...order which helps make repeated playthroughs less interesting.

 

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If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

Depends who and what I'm in the mood for, but probably not more than 5-10%, barring some SG thing running content over there.

 

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What do you think about the mission content of red side?

 

Honestly? Meh. Yeah, I hear "oh, the writing's so much better!" but ... is it? Maybe "ooh, people actually get hurt" and/ or "ooh, it's edgier!" or something - but writing wise... ehhh. *So much* of it is either "You're a lackey," "You're a lackey and an idiot," or "You're unspeakably evil" and just railroads your character into doing things they may not otherwise do.

 

Granted, it's hard to write "generalized villainous content." Bank robberies, beat someone up, sure. The mission system in COH works great for heroes - they're typically reactive. If nobody's doing anything particularly evil, there's not much for them to do but show up and sign 8x10 glossies. Someone robs a bank, you stop them (or bring them in.) Someone's trying to take over the world, you hear about it and stop them. It's very straightforward.

 

Villains... needed AE. Villains are the motivators, they have to have their own plots, start their own trouble unless they just want to be someone's lackey. But we didn't have that, and so got the railroading content we had there for so long, where I know *I* was going "... but my character wouldn't do that" (but has to because I need XP to level.) Your choices with being a villain, according to most of the content, is being the moustache-twirling, tie-the-girl-to-the-tracks sociopath caraicture or being ... honestly, brain dead most of the time. Yes, much later, we started having content written with dialog that at least sounds like you're the one doing things, but... eh.

 

Even VEAT content just... ugh. I haven't run it recently since the first run through was utterly disappointing (and at points infuriating.) Plus there was the utter lack of *any* sort of reaction to you. You're (apparently) a rogue Arachnos agent (you never really get to *be* loyal, just a dupe who provides some entertainment for a while for much of it) -  and no other troops react to you. Nobody tries to get a reward (in this very darwinist society) by hauling you in randomly off the street, nobody looks at you as a hero and tries to help out... you're another enemy PC just like that dom or that blaster. Boring. (And part of why, yes, I *like* Quantums and Void Hunters when I play my Khelds.)

 

 

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How about.the atmosphere/weather?

 

Industrial Revolution-era London. The atmosphere will kill you if the residents don't. "Grimy" generally sums it up for me.

 

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What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do?

 

Probably a complete and total revamp.

 

More zones. Fuller zones with a more distinct personality. NPCs with brooms. More " You actually are starting this" content that doesn't decide ahead of time that you're either a dolt or a sociopath, regardless of your character. A chance to play with multiple *reasons* for your character to be villainous, to whatever degree - yes, maybe you are a sociopath. Or just insane. Or maybe you've just been beaten down so much you're lashing out the only way you know how. Or maybe you're a schemer with big plans that mostly works behind the scenes. Or, yes, even sort of a hero, dealing with threats to your "turf" and the people you protect.

 

 

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What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Almost everything. Including a non-arachnos (and "yay, 100% pro-Arachnos!") path, a start that isn't "you owe them for busting you out" (yeah, I know, graves, blah) - probably get rid of Longbow invading (and for that matter Arachnos invading Atlas, which is *still* frigging stupid.)

 

I can only point up to the rest of the reply. There's just so much more in the nooks and crannies as well as stuff I just haven't remembered to put in the reply. Redside's just ... not really fun.

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

 

I dig it.

 

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

80%? Not sure. A lot by a wide margin.

 

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about the mission content of red side?

 

I vastly prefer it to blue side, but sometimes find it less motivating or engaging than Praetoria. Unfortunately most of the best stuff in my opinion caps out in Nerva. St. Martial loses me with every revolving around the Golden Giza (who cares about the Giza, I want to rob the freaking Giza, not help the people who work there). Grandville has plenty of good stories but also plenty of other ones that seem out of place in an endgame content zone.

 

But all my favorite stories are Redside, with the exception of Guardian of Forever. 

 

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How about.the atmosphere/weather?

 

The Puget Sound Spring weather is way too overdone. Could use a lot more variety. Maybe keep it for Port Oakes, it does really fit there.

 

Atmosphere-wise, I think Grandville's whole vibe is perfect. It feels like badguy inc. Nerva confuses me: why exactly is there a massive Longbow base just chilling in the Isles? Why are there Arachnos fighting CoT on the beaches of Primeva and not against the clowns in Agincourt? Cap au Diable and Sharkhead really work as settings for the grand overarching stories they tell about hidden omega-level monsters, but it's disappointing that they share a lot of similarities in that regard.

 

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do?

 

Delete Paragon City?

 

12 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Probably the weather thing as noted above.  I don't really have beef with Redside and I'm one of the relatively few (I am guessing) that doesn't care that the population is low.  I find that people who play Redside in groups tend to roleplay more and/or enjoy a slower pace of play, and that makes me happy. 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by twozerofoxtrot
Typos

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

 

It's not the "Red" side. It's the "Villain" side. 

"Red" side is a way to try to make it seem like it isn't villainy.

I feel that they would make a lot more headway if people stopped calling it "Red" side.

 

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

2-3%, but that is 2-3% more than Praetorian.

 

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What do you think about the mission content of red side?

 

They are villainous. You aren't going to be asked if you want to break someone's legs on the hero side.

 

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

How about.the atmosphere/weather?

 

I do like the seagulls or whatever they are flying around.

Could use some sharks in the water though....

 

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do?

 

To be honest, nothing.

 

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

It would make more sense as a villain if you could join a villain faction and run around with a crew and leader of that faction .... until  ... of course... you have the mission where you nix the faction leader and take over control of the faction. 

Being a member of a faction would mean that the other factions would be out to get you especially the Arachnos!

Longbow would be more likely to come after you if you were running around with the faction crew in the open world .... you and the crew would be out terrorizing the locals on the street, of course!

Faction powers would work like the Patron powers, except you could call up minions from your faction to help you outside of PVP zones and maybe a more standard Patron type power or two. The lower level faction members would be uncontrollable and attack anything that comes into their area or perception. The higher level one would have basic attack (attack targets on sight) or defend (stay with the spawning character and do nothing until they or the spawning character are attacked) settings.

 

Back on live, I just played villains because I paid for the expansion ... in order to get access to hero side bases.

Now, I play rogues mostly on the hero side and go to the villain side just to run some papers so that my friends and mine can run a bunch of mayhem missions back-to-back for a special change of pace night.

None of my characters are "villain" alignment for more than the first 15 minutes outside of the character creator.

 

I have 146 or so characters at this point. Roughly 11 of them are rogue split between Everlasting and Torchbearer. I only have a supervillain group on one server; the other rogues sneak into other bases by picking the lock or kicking in the base portal.

 

[Snarky]

It will come as little shock to forum lurkers that I adore Redside.  I saw a post In General a day or so ago that went something like “some people find running villains therapeutic”.  Not an exact quote because my memory doesn’t work that way.  I am not sure me running Red is healthy “therapy” but I do love it. 
 

First. Let me address the population issue.  Perfect!!! Yes!   You see…. Do you see?   Hmmm.   How to explain?   If Redside were popular it would simply be less Red.  A true villain will grok this.  But how to explain it to tourists?   Let’s take a look at vampires.  If there were more than a handful of vampires in a large city, or one or two in a small city…things would devolve quickly.  Too many disappeared, too many bodies, too much evidence, too many questions.   Likewise with organized crime.  There are only so many “made” guys.  Sure, a lot of people think being associated with true criminals gives them something.  Like the military has “stolen valor” criminals have “ stolen rep”.  While the true black hats are doing everything they can to hide every crime they do while squirreling away cash and power.  But there are very few at the top.  Everyone needs to be working for the organization (and that means one boss in reality) or they are very expendable. Having a constant flow of new super criminals flowing in and hanging out in the courtyard in Mercy would almost be embarrassing. 
 

Changes to Red.  Greater ability to destroy object and wreck NPCs.  Cars.  Let us kill cars.  Especially the ones driving.  And have all the destruction count for the badges (cars, hydrants, civilians, everything).  
 

I do want to thank the HC Devs for writing great Redside versions of all the content they add.  Seriously, this is good stuff.  
 

Now that I have read this and with the new tweaks and additions to the game I am making a new Redside commitment.  This means me soloing more again, so you will hear me bitching less about PUGs…maybe.  You see every 6 months to a year I take a toon and solo all Redside.  I hate Gold and Blue is yawntown. But Red?  Fughedaboutit.  Now since back on live I always thought it would be a hoot to do something like that on an AR/Dev Blaster.  Heard people on live talking about solo strategy in mission, the mines and pulls etc.   Now with the changes to AR?   The time has come. I may even have a concept….  Say some small time hood gets (dramatic music…duh duh duh….) turned into a vampire.  Only there is no tremendous amount of magic power, or money. Being undead has some benefits sure, but you got to have a place for a coffin. So he picks himself up an assault rifle and starts taking some of that cash people got too much of.  A few jobs and he can afford to buy some better ammo and bombs from a local “shopkeeper” he knows.  Oh, yes.  It is time for a vampire AR/Dev crime spree…

Edited April 27, 2023 by Snarky

[Burnt Umber]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:08 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

I'd guess something like 80 - 90%?  I have about two Redsiders for every Bluesider, and almost all of the Redsiders are 50 and along a bit (or completely) "Incarnated."  I play them on Indomitable and Everlasting.   I sort of wish there was a more robust population for Redsiders on Indom. so teaming was less a Herculean task.  But, I have found that thoose I do end up teaming with seem like nicer folks, oddly enough.  (Maybe, we're too busy being evil to NPCs to be so to each other?)

 

On 4/26/2023 at 1:08 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side? . . . What do you think about the mission content of red side? . . . What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

In a word, "complicated."  For the most part, I like the mission content for specifically Redside:  it feels dirty and dark as I do petty villainy like robbing Banks and beating up thugs as well as the super villainy like taking down a well-known Hero or ambushing a major establishment in Paragon.  I find there's a great catharis in sometimes just being able to hop on and have my character puch some holier-than-thou in the face.  The only real issue I take with Redside content comes with the frequent "need" to have parity between Redside and Blueside, which in turn, ultimately, translates into make co-op content written for Blueside and my Redsiders are stuck doing some act of heroism with only a nominal hand-wave toward my alignment.  (I'm looking at you RWZ and Dark Astoria.)  Mostly, though, it's nice for Redsiders to get a loose "win" without having to do heroics to get there- something done well in the SSAs and, more recently, in the Dr. Aeon SF.

 

Besides radical flights of fancy where I'd completely re-do St. Martial to be a tropical, lavish casino-resort with a dark underbelly, most of my wish-list for Redside is sort of mundane.  I'd really love for the enemy groups I face to be redone and re-balanced.  Longbow - a public hero group - shouldn't be doing the secret agent/espionage stuff that Wyvern was explicitly supposed to be doing.  Similarly, it'd be nice if Legacy Chain and Midnight Club were re-balanced so it felt more natural when I interacted with a "magic" hero group.  And, I wish I faced Skulls, Lost, Outcasts, Trolls, and Warriors in a more engaging and different way than just though paper missions (if at all).  For example, why does Zephyr - a magic/elemental villain - have Goldbrickers - a tech-focused gang - helping him?  (Surely, Outcasts would have been a better fit there.)  Or, why do I never really have to deal with Lost before suddenly having it shoved into my lap that they're being converted into Rikti?

 

I think my hope for the HC Devs with respect to Redside, is that they don't perpetuate the problem of the old Live Devs.  Making things for Redside shouldn't be thought of as wasted development time because the majority is Blueside, and Redside would feel less empty as long as Devs keep the on-going plots/stories from rotting into nothing.

[Techwright]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:08 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

Welcome back for another week. This week while I'm sure you're busy playing page 6, I wanted to bring the discussion to Red Side. It's clear there's significantly more players that gravitate towards Blue side then Red.

 

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side? If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side? What do you think about the mission content of red side? How about.the atmosphere/weather? What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do? What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Thanks again folks.

I've not read anyone else's comments, so apologies if anything I say has been beaten to death previously.

 

I have 2 villains and 1 anti-hero out of over 50 characters.  So I'm playing redside maybe 5% of the time at most.  I've done a lot of solo work redside but I don't find it as enjoyable as teaming.  I'll play redside if a there's an event called out that interests me, but much of the redside doesn't appeal to me.  It's not so much the villainy, I think, as the look.  It's designed to look dark and seedy, mostly.  I also hate how dark the Arachnos base instances are.  It's not just this game, but I'm finding that any game I love that is overly dark tends to eventually turn me off.  It affects my real world mood. It's the reason I stopped playing Lord of the Rings Online.  The portrayal of growing darkness the closer one comes to Mordor just really ended up depressing me in real life. Back with CoV, it also seems puzzling: why would a supposedly world-class villain put up with dark and seedy?  Wouldn't you want the rewards of your villainy? Glitz and glamor?  Even the casino seems gone to seed.  Yeah, I get that Arachnos' favorite colors are black and red, and they'll not paint the base in dulcet Easter egg pastel colors, but perhaps more radiant jewel tones?

 

I'm also one who having a real-world good sense of direction, surprisingly gets easily confused by a maze casually referred to as a city layout.  So Mercy Island makes a terribly place to start.

 

The atmosphere/weather, of course is the same problem.  I've mentioned this before: even if everything built by sentients is black, gray, and red, why is the sky that way?  It should be like it is every place else on earth: a variety of gloomy days to sunny days, and, with the islands in the Atlantic somewhere between Rhode Island and Bermuda, I'd expect the weather to be leaning toward sunnier.  Now if there's an island with an ancient evil that darkens the specific zone, like Dark Astoria has happening to it, then that would make sense in context.

 

I don't really have anything negative to say about the missions, but they also don't really stand out to me either.  My feelings are more on the positive side of "meh".  I would note that there's not a lot of choice in how one plays their villain, at least not that I've seen.  I'd love to have a character that's more likely to set up another for a fall rather than wholesale slaughter, insidious vs extreme violence, but that's not really possible with the design of this game.  Blueside, we end up joking about "arresting with extreme prejudice" for the violence we must unleash.  Redside could actually be a way to explore unique mission play-throughs and outcomes, not just "go there, kill that, rob this, take hostage". 

 

I'm not sure I could list out all the things that might make me play redside more, but an increase in the number of SFs would help.  Especially SFs that can be done in under an hour, or be fractioned out, like the Positron TFs.  Real Life has changed over 15+ years, and there are more demands on my time than there used to be.  A new island to explore might be of interest as well.  There were indications back when CoV was released that they had plans to reveal more islands in the archipelago, and if it brings the possibilities more in line with Paragon zones, I'm for it.

 

Change: weather, external appearances where sunnier weather is placed.  More color and fresh appearance especially in areas/buildings that are supposed to reflect wealth and status. Brighten the instanced Arachnos bases (or make it a toggle with Null the Gull) 

[dtjunkie]

On 4/26/2023 at 3:52 PM, Luminara said:

 

Too much Arachnos and Longbow.

 

This. Every single mission is just one of these two groups and I just wish I could punch something else for once.

[Techwright]

7 hours ago, dtjunkie said:

 

This. Every single mission is just one of these two groups and I just wish I could punch something else for once.

Well, there are snakes.  The devs could possibly put them on a plane if you wanted something different.

[DougGraves]

The problem with Redside is that the stories are very well written with interesting characters - but they are evil and unpleasant.

[cranebump]

18 hours ago, dtjunkie said:

 

This. Every single mission is just one of these two groups and I just wish I could punch something else for once.

Well, there's Snakes, Legacy Chain, Wyvern, Scrapyarders, Coralax, Slag Golems, Luddites, and Wailers, to name a few. Longbow is certainly more present than one would think they'd be (though, if you're a villain, these are the guys trying tp stop you). As for Arachnos, I don't think we can really get around this group, it being, you know, sorta Lord Recluse's private country and all that.:-)

[High_Beam]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:08 PM, SeraphimKensai said:

How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

I look at the Red Side (it is red side as the load screen for a Villain or Rogue aligned character is red, its not parsing words its literally the color), I look at it as somethinig that exists.  When it came out on live back in the day I bought it and rolled a Mastermind, the only interesting AT that it came up with.  However after running that one toon up to 50 I realized that Red Side wasn't for me.  I don't wish is dead I just don't care about it except when it suits my needs.  Personally I believe it is exactly where it needs to be unless the Devs want to truely invest in moving forward the established canonic foundations coupled with the repeated and nearly accepted AMA Lore relating to Recluse and the ramifications of the Who Will Die SSA as well as the Patron Arc of Sirocco along with the Coming Storm shtick.

 

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If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

Blue 90% - Red 7% - Gold 3% and here's where the painful truth comes out; I go to V side for one or two things, Patron Unlock or badges and now that my primary and alternate badge hunters have what they need, that is gone.  The only other time I go there is when one of the Strike Forces is the WSTAnd gold side, that horse has been beaten and should never have time dedicated to doing anything with it.  But that brings me to:

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What do you think about the mission content of red side?

When CoV came out the stories were new and many included new mechanics to them that gave them this veneer of being "better written".  However once you have done them once or maybe twice that great writing is riddled with holes and in the end no better or worse than the content on the Bluse side; there are good arcs and bad arcs.  The problem was that until Going Rogue came out, the bulk of the Red side missions were really just Rogue missions and as others have noted, almost always you being a pawn of whoever.  Villain groups like the Circle of Thorn's were fleshed out better which I appreciate because I truly consider them evil.  Similarly the expansion of the Freakshow was welcome but the Column-Council, the Sky Raiders and such were filler.  But with very few exceptions I never felt like a villain.  Naturally when GR came out it fit more so my MM was shifted to Rogue and using Ouroboros I could cherry pick content I had missed that matched my theme.  GR made thematic play on the V side better.  Contrary to some people I loved Mayhem missions because they made sense and who doesn't want to smash shit for fun and profit.  Someone also said that they didn't want to grind papers and went to Blue side to fill in the void in leveling but part of the reason that void doesn't exist on Blue side is more content over time.

 

And here's an interesting thing, the recent Page 6 release included story arcs designed with Rogues and Vigilantes in mind.  If the devs were to develop a semi-parallel Rogue to Villain path akin to the Gold Side Praetorian (of which all aren't total black hats) vs Resistance (who aren't white hats by any means) (and yes heroes/vigilantes in time) then it might spice some things up.  Shift some of the non-Destiny, non really evil stuff to Rogue and develop measures content that is more "evil" it might work for some players.

 

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How about.the atmosphere/weather?

It works in Port Oakes and Nerva, I always felt like I was on an island and the atmosphere-architecture worked - French and Spanish colonialism which matched the timeline history.  Sharkhead should have leaned more into the industrial waste dump/afront to nature place, maybe create some sort of rolling-random toxic cloud or water zone that keeps you on your toes.  Coralax ambushes like the Snakes pull in Mercy.  St. Martial bugged me as it is this industrial dump paired with a Casino world.  I have been to Atlantic City, I don't need a slightly nicer version of that in my game.  It should have been totally Vegas tricked from the jump, freaking fake fun parks for the kiddies, roller coaster park, more casinos, brothels, bars, and the like.  Take the industrial port to the West and turn it into a cruise ship terminal, make a Spider World theme park on that mound of rubble to the East; ride the Recluse-Coaster and eat 6 dollar shave ice.  Make it super shiny to fool everyone into believing it is what Recluse envisions, Praetoria the shit out of it.

 

Grandville sucks.  I hate it and I want it leveled.  Terrible design, terrible to navigate, confused ideas paired with bad vibes.  I would blank slate the whole thing.  It's supposed to be the capital of a seat of government for a nation state.  It needed to lull visitors into a sense of complacency.  Sure you keep the giant ass statues but yeah, Praetoria the hell out of it with a slightly darker color palate but clean up the travel.

 

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What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do? What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

Well you read a lot of my ideas above, it's not like I don't think about what could make Red Side better.  What else.  Someone mentioned it and I agree; Arachnos needs to be punted from Sirens Call and Atlas and Longbow forcibly ejected from Mercy and Nerva, it makes absolutely zero sense at any level (game or real world).  In no world would a sovereign nation with actual power allow another nation state to occupy its lands.  Maybe expand the lore and content opportunities on those un-named southern Isles in the Rogue Isles (I have a lot of fan fiction explaining those).  Dig deeper into the Blood War between the Mu and the Oranbegans and how it is essentially focused around the Isles, you fought Mot and have communed with Teikeiliu (spelling) so dealing with Ermeeth and Hequats issues as well as Merulina and the Coralax would make for some great story telling that builds upon existing material.

 

But hat is one of the problems.  A lot of players want content but most players just blast through it to get the shiny, never bothering to read . . . anything.  That's why I don't do Khan's unless someone actually has the temerity to say KM Khan because speed is what they want, same goes for Aeon (god I would love to actually enjoy an Aeon) and Tin Mage/Apex (where are we going, what are these).  I tried to lead these once to get that and people lost their shit and left the team because not fast enough for reward!

 

Conversely, the unavoidable truth is that the core issue is that Blue side is easier and a better known variable and the most populated.  So do the devs waste time and energy developing more content to a generally abandoned world on the hope that people will frequent it more and do so beyond the initial blush or will it regress to what it is now once the shiny's are earned.  Gold side tells us everything we need to know.  Best stories (seriously, best written stories) and new looks and moral specific content yet a freaking ghost town.  Blue side is simply easier (in all fronts; navigation, ability to find teams, content, everything) so only those who want to slog, or be different or take a chance do anything but blue and hoping that you can change that is to be blunt . . . foolish; hope is the last refuge of the dammed.

 

I mean look at the chat right now (at any moment).  How many times per hour do you see a DFB on blue and how many red.  How many Posi1 or 2, Yin or Citadel or Moonfire are being run daily when they ARENT the WST compared to Tarikoss or Renault or Mistral when they are WST.  

[UltraAlt]

59 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

Gold Side Praetorian (of which all aren't total black hats) vs Resistance (who aren't white hats by any means) (and yes heroes/vigilantes in time) then it might spice some things up.

 

I feel that they went this way with the Praetorian content because there was a move in comics toward anti-heroes and the television show Heroes was also exploring this "gray area".

 

To me, that destroys the comic book mythology. The original comic book mythology is pretty direct. There is good and here is evil. The good is attacked by evil. Evil must be vanquished because of that. Sure, the Comic Book Authority made that even more rigid. 

I'm not saying that there weren't characters that law enforcement thought were criminals when in all actually they weren't or that Batman didn't throw enemies off of building or back them off the top of buildings or into a vat of deadly chemicals by menacing them.

 

At the time, the Praetorian content was too close to life to me and the point of playing was to escape from that into the CITY OF HEROES not into another dystopian reality.

If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws can be free.

Which doesn't imply that all outlaws are free or that freedom is benign or malevolent.

[High_Beam]

9 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

To me, that destroys the comic book mythology. The original comic book mythology is pretty direct. There is good and here is evil. The good is attacked by evil. Evil must be vanquished because of that. Sure, the Comic Book Authority made that even more rigid. 

I agree here, I was just pointing out that Praetoria allowed for a better assimilation of the Vigilante/Rogue in-betweens than the straight up hero or villain.  There are several things that were implemented in CoX that I didnt agree with because they weren't comic booky and heroy; playing villains, the Arenas and PvP in general, having to watch myself travel to the fight.  But I just didn't participate in the things as opposed to trying to make them go away.

 

It doesn't always have to be The Dark Night, Watchmen, Section 31 but you really fail when you make real white hats like Superman into grey hats.

[UltraAlt]

15 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

having to watch myself travel to the fight.

 

Oh, I have seen this happen in many comic books of various publishers and titles.

I think I have seen it happen most frequently in Legion of Super-heroes comics before the yearly-reconathons began

 

17 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

But I just didn't participate in the things as opposed to trying to make them go away.

 

I'm unsure of the meaning/implication of this statement.

 

17 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

It doesn't always have to be The Dark Night, Watchmen, Section 31 but you really fail when you make real white hats like Superman into grey hats.

 

Agreed.

Make a new character instead.

[ZemX]

This again.

 

It's really really simple.  It has less content.  Thus it has fewer people.  Because it has fewer people, it draws fewer people.   That was the condition on DAY 1 of redside and it is the condition still.  Why would it ever have changed?

 

The idea this has anything to do with actual villainy is laughable.  This may be a real issue for some few, but the vast majority couldn't care less.  Virtually nobody on the most populated server in HC (Excel) is roleplaying.  The people that DO roleplay (Everlasting) actually turn out MORE villains (by percentage of population)... not fewer.  It's not a real barrier.  Hell, 99% of that villain is cartoon villainy anyway.

 

Nah.  It began as a separate game you had to BUY separately.  You couldn't carry any progress.  You couldn't "fall" to the villain side with your hero.  Even after dropping some of those barriers, annoying issues persist.  Mixed teams run into trouble keeping everyone on the team.  You get auto-kicked for hitting Ouro or your base... sometimes.  You have trouble being invited.  But overall it had less content and it still has less content.  Why would it get more people when there is more to do and more people blueside?

 

Goldside content trumps both Blue AND Red and it's even deader over there.  Again they walled it off.  Even imprison new characters there for 20 levels.  It's beautifully designed and beautifully written... and totally empty.

 

The only things that can really be done is, if it's even possible with the state the code's in, to drop the remaining barriers and annoyances with mixed teams.  If you could go there and start a team and anybody could join from any zone just like they would join a mission team in Founder's Falls or Peregrine Island?  You'd see more people doing it.

Edited May 2, 2023 by ZemX

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm unsure of the meaning/implication of this statement.

I mean that I do not go on crusades to make things go away because I didn't like them.  I do not define others fun and they mine.  I am not the only opinion in the room and I am often both wrong and/or in the minority.  But I do like discourse as it occasionally opens up new ideas.

 

Now things that are inherently wrong, those are the things I am apt to crusade against to the best of my ability.

[lemming]

20 hours ago, DougGraves said:

The problem with Redside is that the stories are very well written with interesting characters - but they are evil and unpleasant.

This really is the reason I don't do redside as much, since I tend to prefer playing good guys.   I sometimes have the character undercover and any bad thing done is an elaborate trick to make it look like I did something that evil.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, High_Beam said:

I mean that I do not go on crusades to make things go away because I didn't like them.

 

Well, I've calmed down on my anti-farmer/power-leveling crusade.

I haven't ranted about it for a bunch of months at this point... I think...

 

6 hours ago, High_Beam said:

Now things that are inherently wrong, those are the things I am apt to crusade against to the best of my ability.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, only normal handgrenades are sold at the P2W vender.

[rolandgrey]

Well, a friend and I have been playing Redside a lot lately...  Here are my forty-two cents...

 

-How do you feel about the current state of Red Side?

 

Writing-wise?  Not bad.  Some of the best arcs you can find on entertainment value alone you can find on Redside.  Reward-wise, it's abysmal.  There aren't as many arcs, the arcs aren't very long, and most of the arcs revolve around Longbow and Arachnos, two enemy groups specifically designed to be at least annoying to fight, regardless of your archetype.  There's also an ever present sense of neglect.  Mercy Island now has this arc involving liberating it from Longbow occupation, but Port Oakes is bereft of any cohesive story, is full of lore of the interesting sites upon it, but you have content that is related to about 10% of it.  St. Martial suffers from this the worst, as it's "Island Las Vegas, a la the Mob," but the bulk of the story quests there revolve around the Wailer demons trying to kill Johnny Sonata.  There is a mob war raging on the streets between the Frost Family, the Verandis and the Tsoo, with Freakshow running about, but you don't get to experience any of it because some screaming little "razor bats" want to kill the main money man.

 

However, my main complaint is the rewards.  Blueside gets heaps of rewards in merits for its content while Redside gets pittances.  The explanation is always a trite "Well, it goes by mission length..." which is bull excrement.  The merit rewards placed on Redside look like placeholders at best, as if the Paragon devs still needed to evaluate the actual difficulty of what they'd put players through.  Blueside, you go through missions that are Defeat All, click 20 things, etc., but RARELY fight an Elite Boss or Arch Villain.  You get anywhere between 40-55 merits, "because the arcs were loooooong."  Redside, you get a mission from a guy who tells you to go beat up Positron, which leads to fighting Valkyrie (and, whoop!  Positron showed up again!).  Eight merits.  Eight merits for a fight that will likely take you as long as the Blueside arc because you might be able to get, at best, a team of four, but will most likely be fighting Positron and Valkyrie with a team of two.

 

-If you had you split your play time between blue, red, and gold, how much percent out of 100 would you say you spend playing red side?

 

45%

 

-What do you think about the mission content of red side?

 

As others said, the content is mostly filler.  Most of the actual arcs were, while improved, still little better than the 40+ content on Blueside.  It wasn't until later we started getting the more unusual, dynamic missions.  So, the writings good, but you can definitely feel the "Okay, we put this here because we felt there needed to be something here..." aspect of it.  At least it's not the same as the Citadel TF's second mission (which literally has you go right into the same door and fight the same mission all over again).

 

-How about the atmosphere/weather?

 

What weather?  Despite heroes breaking Nemesis's weather machine on Blueside, IT STILL NEVER RAINS.

 

However, the atmosphere on Redside is gloomy and depressing, but also has something of a Wild West feel due to the "Survival of the Fittest" mantra espoused by Arachnos.  You can see how these Isles are such a hive of scum and villainy.

 

-What would get you to play more on red side now then you currently do?

 

MORE ARCS.  Better rewards FOR those arcs.  I keep coming back to the new Doc Buzzsaw stuff because that stuff's really entertaining.  Kudos to the HC folks responsible for that.  I don't even mind the self-insert, because the writing is so on-point and lore appropriate.

 

You have so much to dig into, so much that was just left as set dressing but was just left to fester in our imaginations because Paragon only had the budget and resources to focus solely on the New Shiny every update.

 

-What would you change about red side in general if you were able to do so?

 

Better rewards, especially the merits.  Despite being a setting involving characters who are doing what they do for selfish reasons, they never seem to reap any reward for it.  We've got missions that end with our characters chortling about how much money they made on a mission, but their Inf gain is exactly the same as an equivalent Blueside mission and merit reward is abysmal despite regularly taking on much more difficult challenges.  I'm not saying change it so people wind up "mission farming" on Redside in an effort to gain fat stacks of Inf for little effort, but the merits AT LEAST need to be adjusted.

[twozerofoxtrot]

18 hours ago, High_Beam said:

How many Posi1 or 2, Yin or Citadel or Moonfire are being run daily when they ARENT the WST compared to Tarikoss or Renault or Mistral when they are WST.  

 

Okay, not that I disagree with you, or think anything would change if these Blueside TFs were mirror-imaged on Redside, but.....

 

This is a bit of a false equivalence because all of the TFs you listed are run for accolade badges. The only SF that is needed for a Redside version of the same is RLSF, which does get run fairly frequently (though to your other point usually sped run). If Redside SFs had the same utility for accolades we might see more people running them.

 

Also:

 

Posi 1&2, there's no Redside equivalent for the levels of these TFs. At the very least players who wanted to zip up to the early 20s would have that level track option on Red with a two-part SF that started at level 8.

 

I see (and form) Mortimer Kal SFs fairly often- way more often than its level-range equivalent Admiral Sutter TF. I think this is because MKSF is faster to run with a better reward, and that's about it. 

 

 

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Okay, not that I disagree with you, or think anything would change if these Blueside TFs were mirror-imaged on Redside, but.....

 

This is a bit of a false equivalence because all of the TFs you listed are run for accolade badges. The only SF that is needed for a Redside version of the same is RLSF, which does get run fairly frequently (though to your other point usually sped run). If Redside SFs had the same utility for accolades we might see more people running them.

You make a fair point about equivalency and the possibility of activity based on an alteration of that equivalency.  I mean I know players who run teams to speed run the Villain Mayhems in order to get Invader which converts to TFC when they jump back to blue Side.  As you mentioned, the absence of two low level SFs like Posi are yet again a barrier to entry which would need to be resolved and Kal you have to unlock to run which would need to be changed to be included.  Plus there would have to be level realignment which might involve relocating contacts and I definitely haven't dug that deep in research there.