Speedsters, Burst of Speed and a Speed Pool revamp

[Rigged]

Speedsters need more cohesive options.

 

Speedsters are a mainstay of the superhero genre. The big three publishers (Marvel, DC, Image) all have separate speedsters in their main lineup (Quicksilver, Flash, and Velocity). COH acknowledges this with Synapse/Neuron. But in COH Synapse is a blaster, despite the fact that just about every other speedster in fiction is a melee'er. The side effect of this is that in COH speedsters do not get their own powerset, being relegated to a power pool.

 

This sucks.

 

This is compounded by the fact that the way COH balances power pools means that Flurry, the iconic speedster attack, is pretty crazy underpowered. It has a long animation time and does very little damage. Then we have Whirlwind, which is basically a weaker Hurricane with less debuffs and an END cost so high it is impractical to run for long even with END reduction. To make things worse, the most commonly-taken pool power in the entire game, Hasten, is in the Speed pool, diluting the uniqueness of Speedsters because a huge chunk of people will pick Super Speed as their travel power to save a pool pick. 

 

When the HC devs started adding a fifth power to pools, I was hopeful that this might change. But the power they added was Burnout, which - let us be honest here - is really niche at best. It resets your cooldowns once every 30 minutes. 30 minutes! With a massive investment in +rechange you can press this down to around 7 minutes or so, but it also comes with a whopping huge END cost and reduces your max END by 25 for 60 seconds. Just to understand how painful this can get, this is half the power of the Curse of Weakness debuff from Vanguard. The game, by the way, is supposed to be balanced around SO, not IOs sets, which means the power is supposed to be balanced against the SO-enhanced recharge of 15 minutes. I do not comprehend the logic of a power you can use only around once in the average length of a mission clear.

 

In short, the Speed pool is kind of a mess. It has two powers that have no speed aesthetics and solely affect recharge/penalizes END, it has an attack that massages your enemy, and Whirlwind is literally the most expensive toggle in the game yet all it does is annoy your teammates by scattering mobs.

 

It really needs a revamp.

 

You know what a speed pool power should look like? In the Blaster Secondary Martial Combat, there is a completely unique power called "Burst of Speed", which honestly does not really belong in a powerset that is otherwise about martial arts. It is perfect for a speedster. That the HC devs did not choose Burst of Speed instead of Burnout as the 5th power  is... honestly I don't even know what they were thinking.

 

-------------------------------

 

Proposed changes

 

Proposal 1) Revamp the Speed Pool

• Please put Burst of Speed in the Speed pool. You can add this to the powerset or replace on of the existing powers. Give it a longer cooldown than the blaster version and 80% of the damage.
• If you choose to replace a power, perhaps move Hasten and/or Burnout to a different power pool. Call it Temporal or something. Put in a slow, a Hold, and maybe a Teleport variant, presto, new pool set. Note: I am not advocating a Hasten nerf, at least not in this thread. Hasten being a problematic power is another discussion that always sidetracks discussions on the usefulness of the Speed pool powers, so let's just... not.
• Change Whirlwind into a click AOE knockup. You play the whirlwind animation for 1 second, enemies fly upwards. Consider extending the radius from 7 ft to 10ft so it might actually fulfil the function of KB/KD/KU, which is to mitigate damage. Consider giving this a very small amount of damage so we can put melee AOE procs in it to make it a little more useful. Consider a cast time of 1 second, cooldown of 24 seconds, deals 10 damage at lvl 50. Before anyone says this is too useful, please consider it is the capstone Speed pool power, the equivalent of Cross Punch.
• Make Flurry suck less. Please consider reducing the cast time to 2.35s, the same as Shadow Maul. Please consider raising the damage to at least 70% of Shadow Maul's. Balance this damage increase with longer recharge. Keep it a single target power - this is thematic. Speedsters in comics hammering a foe generally do not AOE it.
• Consider giving the three click attacks (Burst of Speed, Whirlwind, and Flurry) the Fighting pool treatment. Taking all three might (for instance) reduce the base cooldown of Burst of Speed to match the Blaster version (still less damage), increase the radius of Whirlwind from 7 to 10ft, and increase the damage of Flurry to that of Shadow Maul (Flurry still being single target). This will make taking all 3 powers turn them into reasonably functional powers that are still less powerful than the powerset equivalents, similar to Fighting.

 

Proposal 2) New Melee set called Speedster Melee

• If you don't want to revamp the Speed pool, please consider a full-fledged melee powerset. Before anyone complains that powersets should not replicate pools, this is EXACTLY what Fighting, Medicine, Concealment and Prescence do (and at one time, Fitness too).
• Consider quick punch animations from Street Justice, Martial Arts, and Dark Melee. There should also be a non-dark analogue of Shadow Maul using the Flurry animation shortened to match Shadow Maul's
• Add Burst of Speed and the click version of Whirlwind (above). Since these are now Powerset attacks, they should do full damage. Whirlwind should get damage comparable to Dragon's Tail.
• I get that these days HC devs have a psychological condition preventing them from releasing a powerset without some kind of stupid mechanical gimmick. Perhaps a buff (let's call it Velocity) that reduces animation time (clipping the windups) from the heavier single target attacks (spenders) when 3 stacks are gained from weaker attacks (builders). It doesn't matter anyway because 90% of players are just going to ignore it.
• Consider adding an unsuppressed 100% (same as Sprint) runspeed buff to the set's Build Up with a separate, longer duration than the damage/tohit bonus. It would also be nice to be able to slot the Thrust set proc in it (allowing a speedster to have a much higher unsuppressed runspeed than other sets). I suppose you can also add stacks of the stupid gimmick mechanic buff.
• For the T9 I propose a power called Mass Driver, where the speedster circumnavigates the globe to gather momentum and hit the target at close to lightspeed. Use the Burst of Speed animations but vastly increase damage, stretch out the "zoom" effect, take a second longer to land after the teleport out and maybe make it a wide AOE like Savage Leap/Lightning Rod/Shield charge. If the Punch animation is used for this then consider using a kick animation for the lower-level Burst of Speed power so as to give the set a larger variety of animations.

 

[Rudra]

Speed Power Pool:

Flurry: What is more iconic of the conventional perception of a speedster, especially as you described seeing as how Flash and Quicksilver are known to use this ability to take down foes routinely in the comics? A barrage of punches so fast it looks like multiple fists impacting or at least being thrown faster than any normal could ever hope to.

 

Hasten: Setting aside that a lot of players view this as part of the Holy Quad of powers, which has nothing to do with whether it fits the pool or not, the ability to use their powers faster/more often than non-speedsters is most definitely a speedster ability.

 

Super Speed: To quote Marvel: 'Nuff said.

 

Burnout: Hasten taken to an extreme. A speedster burning himself/herself out to get that extra hit in or a desperation move to get that last attack in that will hopefully drop their foe. Very much a speedster ability, just not one a wise speedster uses any more than is needed.

 

Whirlwind: The difference between this power and what Flash does fairly often? The player character is not running around in a circle trying to lift or contain foes with a tornado effect. Instead, the player character spins creating the tornado effect and can still move around while doing so. Want it to not send mobs flying away and upsetting the team? Slot a KB to KD proc. Problem solved.

 

So yes, the Speed power pool is very much a speedster power pool. Every power in it is used by one speedster or another in comics, movies, or cartoons. It may not work as well as it does in comics, movies, or cartoons, but that is because this is a video game and video games don't get plot armor characters, and because it is a power pool and power pool powers are supposed to be weaker than primary or secondary pool powers.

 

As for speedsters needing to be melee? Who says a speedster has to be melee just because Flash, Quicksilver, or Velocity are known to be melee focused? I don't know about Velocity, but Flash and Quicksilver both have routinely launched projectiles at their foes. Flash more so than Quicksilver. And who says a player has to limit their speedster to what Flash, Quicksilver, or Velocity does? Who says a speedster can't be a ranged fighter? Even wild west gunslingers would fall under the speedster motif with their fast draw duels. They were normals rather than supers, but speed and accuracy was most definitely their thing. So why can't a super hero be a gun slinging speedster? Why can't someone made of lightning and fires bolts of lightning be a speedster? They would most definitely be able to be one. "Fast as lightning", after all.

 

So basically, we have the Speed power pool because the Live devs knew that just because Flash, Quicksilver, and Velocity were more melee focused (but not limited to), that did not mean every other speedster someone could think up should also be limited in that way. That is why it is a power pool.

 

Edit:

Also, as for Burst of Speed not fitting in Martial Combat? Sudden bursts of movement to catch their foes off guard, quickly close the distance, or just get out of the way of an attack has been a trope of martial arts cinema, particularly the wire-fighting ones, and the wuxia genre since forever.

 

Edit again: The Fitness pool was not a primary or secondary pool that duplicated a power pool. It was not a power pool that duplicated a primary or secondary pool. It was a power pool. The power pool was made inherent so players didn't need to choose it any more. It was made already chosen and pre-loaded to all newly made characters after the change. It was still a power pool. It can still be considered a power pool, just one that is inherent to all characters without using power slots any more.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "conventionally" to "conventional".

[Crasical]

52 minutes ago, Rigged said:

• I get that these days HC devs have a psychological condition preventing them from releasing a powerset without some kind of stupid mechanical gimmick. Perhaps a buff (let's call it Velocity) that reduces animation time (clipping the windups) from the heavier single target attacks (spenders) when 3 stacks are gained from weaker attacks (builders). It doesn't matter anyway because 90% of players are just going to ignore it.

 

This is definitely a great way to make it seem like you have a well reasoned argument and aren't just whining.

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, Rigged said:

Proposed changes

 

Proposal 1) Revamp the Speed Pool

• Please put Burst of Speed in the Speed pool. You can add this to the powerset or replace on of the existing powers. Give it a longer cooldown than the blaster version and 80% of the damage.
• If you choose to replace a power, perhaps move Hasten and/or Burnout to a different power pool. Call it Temporal or something. Put in a slow, a Hold, and maybe a Teleport variant, presto, new pool set. Note: I am not advocating a Hasten nerf, at least not in this thread. Hasten being a problematic power is another discussion that always sidetracks discussions on the usefulness of the Speed pool powers, so let's just... not.
• Change Whirlwind into a click AOE knockup. You play the whirlwind animation for 1 second, enemies fly upwards. Consider extending the radius from 7 ft to 10ft so it might actually fulfil the function of KB/KD/KU, which is to mitigate damage. Consider giving this a very small amount of damage so we can put melee AOE procs in it to make it a little more useful. Consider a cast time of 1 second, cooldown of 24 seconds, deals 10 damage at lvl 50. Before anyone says this is too useful, please consider it is the capstone Speed pool power, the equivalent of Cross Punch.
• Make Flurry suck less. Please consider reducing the cast time to 2.35s, the same as Shadow Maul. Please consider raising the damage to at least 70% of Shadow Maul's. Balance this damage increase with longer recharge. Keep it a single target power - this is thematic. Speedsters in comics hammering a foe generally do not AOE it.
• Consider giving the three click attacks (Burst of Speed, Whirlwind, and Flurry) the Fighting pool treatment. Taking all three might (for instance) reduce the base cooldown of Burst of Speed to match the Blaster version (still less damage), increase the radius of Whirlwind from 7 to 10ft, and increase the damage of Flurry to that of Shadow Maul (Flurry still being single target). This will make taking all 3 powers turn them into reasonably functional powers that are still less powerful than the powerset equivalents, similar to Fighting.

 

Proposal 2) New Melee set called Speedster Melee

• If you don't want to revamp the Speed pool, please consider a full-fledged melee powerset. Before anyone complains that powersets should not replicate pools, this is EXACTLY what Fighting, Medicine, Concealment and Prescence do (and at one time, Fitness too).
• Consider quick punch animations from Street Justice, Martial Arts, and Dark Melee. There should also be a non-dark analogue of Shadow Maul using the Flurry animation shortened to match Shadow Maul's
• Add Burst of Speed and the click version of Whirlwind (above). Since these are now Powerset attacks, they should do full damage. Whirlwind should get damage comparable to Dragon's Tail.
• I get that these days HC devs have a psychological condition preventing them from releasing a powerset without some kind of stupid mechanical gimmick. Perhaps a buff (let's call it Velocity) that reduces animation time (clipping the windups) from the heavier single target attacks (spenders) when 3 stacks are gained from weaker attacks (builders). It doesn't matter anyway because 90% of players are just going to ignore it.
• Consider adding an unsuppressed 100% (same as Sprint) runspeed buff to the set's Build Up with a separate, longer duration than the damage/tohit bonus. It would also be nice to be able to slot the Thrust set proc in it (allowing a speedster to have a much higher unsuppressed runspeed than other sets). I suppose you can also add stacks of the stupid gimmick mechanic buff.
• For the T9 I propose a power called Mass Driver, where the speedster circumnavigates the globe to gather momentum and hit the target at close to lightspeed. Use the Burst of Speed animations but vastly increase damage, stretch out the "zoom" effect, take a second longer to land after the teleport out and maybe make it a wide AOE like Savage Leap/Lightning Rod/Shield charge. If the Punch animation is used for this then consider using a kick animation for the lower-level Burst of Speed power so as to give the set a larger variety of animations.

 

Some good ideas here, I like it!

 

1 hour ago, Crasical said:

 

This is definitely a great way to make it seem like you have a well reasoned argument and aren't just whining.

I disagree, there's a suggestion there. How can that be "just whining"? I also agree with the OP. The extra mechanics aren't something I am particularly fond of. In the past, I've avoided powersets because of the bonus mechanics.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Herotu

[0th Power]

I like both proposals and I too am not a fan of the gimmicks. (I miss gimmick free energy melee).

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Herotu said:

I disagree, there's a suggestion there. How can that be "just whining"?

 

9 hours ago, Rigged said:

I get that these days HC devs have a psychological condition preventing them from releasing a powerset without some kind of stupid mechanical gimmick.

It is very easy to read that quoted statement from the OP in a negative way. Either as an insult to the devs or as whining. @Crasical is only saying that suggestions should be presented in a thoughtful manner.

[biostem]

17 hours ago, Rigged said:

Proposal 2) New Melee set called Speedster Melee

I think this would be the best route to go.  You could then pair it with different armor sets to encapsulate just the type of speedster you want.

Edited May 18, 2023 by biostem

[Rigged]

17 hours ago, Crasical said:

 

This is definitely a great way to make it seem like you have a well reasoned argument and aren't just whining.

 

This is definitely a way to dismiss valid criticism using personal attacks. And before you say what I am pretty sure you're about to, making fun of their obsessive need to add silly mechanics is absolutely valid criticism of their balance decisions. I even made a constructive suggestion in concession to that obsession, because I acknowledge they want it even though we all know the vast majority of players ignore the mechanics due to the speed of clearing making them pointless past lvl 25 or so because of the way attuned IO set bonuses carry with exemplaring. Even Rudra, in the thread for Storm Cell, advocated ignoring the Storm Cell mechanic when the group is moving fast enough to render it inefficient. One of the rare times I actually agreed with them - stubbornly adhering to mechanics is pointless in any situation where doing so would reduce your efficacy more than the mechanic contributes.

 

Now if your goal is just to make personal attacks, that's fair, and my reply is that you are a poop-head. Please ignore this line if it that was not your intention.

 

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

It is very easy to read that quoted statement from the OP in a negative way. Either as an insult to the devs or as whining. @Crasical is only saying that suggestions should be presented in a thoughtful manner.

 

It is thoughtful. I just do not feel the need to treat the devs with kid gloves, since they are adults.

 

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

Speed Power Pool:

<whole bunch of stuff nitpicking my criticism of the devs rather than the validity of the pool needing a revamp>

 

Rudra, I get that you feel obligated to leap to the defense of the devs every time you see even the faintest criticism appear, but kindly address my issues with balance rather than complaining about how I characterize the set's theme in my post's introduction, or the little jabs I make over the course of it. If your issue is with the jabs themselves (and let's be honest that's probably it) then just call that out specifically and I can address it, like I did Crasical. 

 

Also, you don't have to devote lines defending Flurry and SS when I already uphold them in every suggestion I made - I assume the reader is entirely capable of figuring out themselves how I feel about it and I assume you are intelligent enough to do it too.

 

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

just not one a wise speedster uses any more than is needed.

 

Or take the power to begin with. Yes I know unwise people do it all the time and I don't object to the idea that they do.

 

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

Who says a speedster has to be melee just because Flash, Quicksilver, or Velocity are known to be melee focused?

 

Certainly not me, so I don't know what that whole paragraph is about. I said it sucks because we don't have a speedster melee powerset. I didn't advocate removing the pool. Please look at the first line of Proposal 2 - I suggest adding a Speedster Melee set if the devs do not want to revamp the Speed Pool. This would allow a player to play the classic speedster without having to lean so hard on pool powers which are under 1/4 the effectiveness of an AT power. If there is a Speedster Melee powerset I would have no objection to keeping the Speed pool as is, for those people who want to take the powers for entirely thematic reasons while using other powersets (even other melee powersets).

Edited May 18, 2023 by Rigged

[Rigged]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I think this would be the best route to go.  You could then pair it with different armor sets to encapsulate just the type of speedster you want.

 

I get that this might be asking a bit too much, but I would also like Speedster Melee powers to be available as a blaster or dominator secondary, with possibly additional wind-based range powers to round out the set for those ATs. 

[biostem]

Just now, Rigged said:

I get that this might be asking a bit too much, but I would also like Speedster Melee powers to be available as a blaster or dominator secondary, with possibly additional wind-based range powers to round out the set for those ATs. 

It'd need to be further differentiated from martial combat, especially if we were to "borrow" burst of speed from it.  

[Rigged]

8 minutes ago, biostem said:

It'd need to be further differentiated from martial combat, especially if we were to "borrow" burst of speed from it.  

 

To be fair, Martial Combat is already in many ways a Speedster powerset, considering it has Reaction Time and Burst of Speed. It just lacks a Flurry-style attack.

 

EDIT: Actually, a Flurry-style attack would be very welcome in Martial combat. It can double as both a speedster attack and a reflection of the persistent theme of martial artists hammering enemies in a massive barrage of punches, one of the most well known being Donnie Yen's Ip Man.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Rigged

[Rudra]

What prompted my 1st response:

 

18 hours ago, Rigged said:

It has two powers that have no speed aesthetics

 

18 hours ago, Rigged said:

Whirlwind is literally the most expensive toggle in the game yet all it does is annoy your teammates by scattering mobs.

 

18 hours ago, Rigged said:

In the Blaster Secondary Martial Combat, there is a completely unique power called "Burst of Speed", which honestly does not really belong in a powerset that is otherwise about martial arts.

 

I am free to disagree when I think something is wrong. I am also free to comment on it and try to point out what I view as being wrong.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Rigged said:

 

It is thoughtful. I just do not feel the need to treat the devs with kid gloves, since they are adults.

There is a difference between treating someone as an adult and insulting them. Being thoughtful requires you treat someone as an adult. Make your points without denigrating the people you are trying to reach out to. And this is from someone who routinely fails to realize just how poorly their own comments will be received.

 

45 minutes ago, Rigged said:

I even made a constructive suggestion in concession to that obsession, because I acknowledge they want it even though we all know the vast majority of players ignore the mechanics due to the speed of clearing making them pointless past lvl 25 or so because of the way attuned IO set bonuses carry with exemplaring. Even Rudra, in the thread for Storm Call, advocated ignoring the Storm Call mechanic when the group is moving fast enough to render it inefficient - which, let's be honest here, is pretty much every single group. One of the rare times I actually agreed with them - stubbornly adhering to mechanics is pointless in any situation where doing so would reduce your efficacy more than the mechanic contributes.

I never even addressed the actual suggestion. My opinion on the actual suggestions?

 

First suggestion: Leave Burst of Speed where it is. Leave the existing powers in the Speed power pool where they are. As I have stated on multiple threads, I am against taking away powers that are already in use. Taking away Burst of Speed from the Martial Combat secondary and putting it in the Speed power pool would then require characters that have it and use it but did not take the Speed power pool to then go back and quite possibly lose a power pool they wanted to have to go back and get a power they already had. (Edit: I have 2 characters with the Martial Combat secondary. Both use all their available power pool selections. Neither uses the Speed power pool. This suggestion would require me to completely change my take on those characters to get 1 power back.)

 

Second suggestion: If you want to make a hyper melee, or speed melee, or whatever you want to call it melee, then go for it. You should probably better fill in the idea though. And no, a "gimmick" is not necessary. Pitch what you want. If the devs want to do it? They will.

 

45 minutes ago, Rigged said:

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

Who says a speedster has to be melee just because Flash, Quicksilver, or Velocity are known to be melee focused?

 

Certainly not me, so I don't know what that whole paragraph is about. I said it sucks because we don't have a speedster melee powerset. I didn't advocate removing the pool. Please look at the first line of Proposal 2 - I suggest adding a Speedster Melee set if the devs do not want to revamp the Speed Pool. This would allow a player to play the classic speedster without having to lean so hard on pool powers which are under 1/4 the effectiveness of an AT power. If there is a Speedster Melee powerset I would have no objection to keeping the Speed pool as is, for those people who want to take the powers for entirely thematic reasons while using other powersets (even other melee powersets).

The way I read the OP is that you are dissatisfied with the Speed power pool because it is not a melee set. Your focus on Flash, Quicksilver, and Velocity for what it means to be a speedster would have posed a severe limitation on CoH speedster concepts if the Live devs had gone with a melee speed power set instead of the power pool revolving around speed. Making a new power set that focuses on hyper melee? Sure, go for it. It's the smackdown of the Speed power pool for not being a Speed power pool that got me into this conversation.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Rudra

[Rigged]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

I am free to disagree when I think something is wrong. I am also free to comment on it and try to point out what I view as being wrong.

 

 

Yes and I am free to call your nitpicking exactly that. Which I did.

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

There is a difference between treating someone as an adult and insulting them. Being thoughtful requires you treat someone as an adult. Make your points without denigrating the people you are trying to reach out to. And this is from someone who routinely fails to realize just how poorly their own comments will be received.

 

 

Acknowledging that you are a hypocrite doesn't magically give your statement any moral backing. I am well aware of how you respond to people, and frankly that seems to be the forum culture here. I am, as they say, doing in Rome. I have no intention of making a special exception for the devs. The moderators have the power to tighten the rules of civility, and I would gladly adhere to them. That they do not means this is inevitably where we end up. When forum regulars like yourself, Snarky, Wravis, and countless others are consistently peppering their posts with backhanded smartassery, I am compelled to follow. I'm not sure if you realize that it is entirely possible that might be the reason you miss the acidity of your own comments. You can check my earliest posts for the polite way I used to frame everything before adapting to the acidity I received in response. These days I only insist on retaining civility with newbies and people asking for help.

 

Also, let me be perfectly honest here, you are amongst the least qualified (EDIT: on reflection that was a little unfair. There are way worse) not particularly qualified amongst the people in this forum to advocate civility in it.

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

It's the smackdown of the Speed power pool for not being a Speed power pool that got me into this conversation.

 

I know. Like I said, you feel compelled to defend against any kind of criticism to the game.

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

10 hours ago, Rigged said:

I even made a constructive suggestion in concession to that obsession, because I acknowledge they want it even though we all know the vast majority of players ignore the mechanics due to the speed of clearing making them pointless past lvl 25 or so because of the way attuned IO set bonuses carry with exemplaring. Even Rudra, in the thread for Storm Call, advocated ignoring the Storm Call mechanic when the group is moving fast enough to render it inefficient - which, let's be honest here, is pretty much every single group. One of the rare times I actually agreed with them - stubbornly adhering to mechanics is pointless in any situation where doing so would reduce your efficacy more than the mechanic contributes.

I never even addressed the actual suggestion. My opinion on the actual suggestions?

 

Didn't address that quote to you, I addressed that at Crasical. That you happened to be in it is not related to this thread. I'm not sure what you even quoted that for, because you didn't address anything of what I said in it.

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Taking away Burst of Speed from the Martial Combat secondary

 

Did not ask for this. I commented that it didn't really belong but did not ask for it to be taken away (EDIT: and in fact later in the same post I note that the pool version should be less powerful than the blaster version, implying that I don't want blasters to lose it). This is the second time you are taking an issue with something I never asked for. You do understand that we can add things without taking them away, right?

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

The way I read the OP is that you are dissatisfied with the Speed power pool because it is not a melee set.

 

I am. But I am have no objection to the idea that it can also be a pool set. Like I said, lots of pools are merely reflections of powers in the AT sets. In the very least, Super Speed needs to stay a travel power and there needs to be a pool to support it.

 

<EDIT: Deleted a whole bunch of crap that might ignite a debate on Hasten's balance that I did not want to derail this discussion with> My issue for the purpose of this post is that I want Burst of Speed available to non-blasters and that the devs might be reluctant to give Speed six powers instead of five, meaning to add it would require removing one of the others. I suggest it be either Hasten or Burnout. I don't object to Hasten staying in the pool or even for the pool to be untouched, if there is an alternative like an AT powerset where we can play the speedster that is an actual genre archetype, in the non-game meaning of the word.

 

In fact, all the issues you have with mechanics I already acknowledged in my original post, where I provided the set suggestion in anticipation of the likelihood of someone, or the devs, not wanting any changes to the pool.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Rigged

[Greycat]

17 hours ago, Herotu said:

I disagree, there's a suggestion there. How can that be "just whining"? I also agree with the OP. The extra mechanics aren't something I am particularly fond of. In the past, I've avoided powersets because of the bonus mechanics.

 

 

And that isn't an "HC Devs" thing, anyway - the gimmicks started coming on live (momentum, for instance.)

 

On the one hand, they're a way to differentiate and add flavor to sets, so I get that.

On the other, they definitely can take away from the set for some people (or they just get ignored, like seems to be the case for most of Dual Blades.)

 

As far as the rest of the OP? I could go with either. I don't know that I'd want a full set just called "speedster melee"- specifically with the name kind of implying a limit on the characters to use it - but that's neither here nor there, really.  (And I haven't seen or taken Whirlwind in a while - maybe give it the Singularity treatment, you spin, create a vortex that brings enemies in, does some DOT as you hit them, and they get flung up? *shrug*)

[Herotu]

7 hours ago, Greycat said:

As far as the rest of the OP? I could go with either. I don't know that I'd want a full set just called "speedster melee"- specifically with the name kind of implying a limit on the characters to use it - but that's neither here nor there, really.  (And I haven't seen or taken Whirlwind in a while - maybe give it the Singularity treatment, you spin, create a vortex that brings enemies in, does some DOT as you hit them, and they get flung up? *shrug*)

I appreciate your perspective, but when I was explaining how I struggled to explain to myself how the abundance of spellcaster-esque animations work with my technological or weapon-based non-magical characters (and thus limiting the characters that can use it), the advice I received was to headcanon it. 

Isn't the fact that the name perturbs you a similar thing? Should the response be "just headcanon it"?

 

[BrandX]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:08 AM, 0th Power said:

I like both proposals and I too am not a fan of the gimmicks. (I miss gimmick free energy melee).

 

I played Energy Melee back on Live, after the changes on live, and on HC before the changes.  It's gimmick isn't much of a gimmick if you play it like old Energy Melee.  Where the only real feel for the gimmick is if you take Power Crash.

 

In old Energy Melee, people generally skipped (the majority and I'm sure there will be people going "Oh I was the one who took it!" and they're likely lying :p) Stun.  So it's gimmick is AOE for Power Crash.

Energy Transfer, Total Focus, Bone Smasher, Barrage, Energy Punch, Whirling Hands...can play the set like before without really trying to do anything with it's gimmick and do the same if not better damage than before...an that's without focusing on it.  Which really at most the gimmick is "Hey, hit TF before ET so ET is fast"  

Now...all that said...

I wouldn't mind a Speed Melee Set.  I've always thought pool attacks should be at least comparable to tier 1/2 attacks, so people can replace those attacks with pool attacks.

[0th Power]

10 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Which really at most the gimmick is "Hey, hit TF before ET so ET is fast"  

Without getting this tread too off track, this is my main problem.  I don't like having to lead with TF to get fast ET, but that is another can of worms.

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Herotu said:

I appreciate your perspective, but when I was explaining how I struggled to explain to myself how the abundance of spellcaster-esque animations work with my technological or weapon-based non-magical characters (and thus limiting the characters that can use it), the advice I received was to headcanon it. 

Isn't the fact that the name perturbs you a similar thing? Should the response be "just headcanon it"?

 

Nope. It's an opinion I have, and have voiced. Yes, I already do "headcanon" things, but I try to avoid names/themes that pigeonhole stuff. I mean, Dark-whatever powers (armor, blast, etc.) in their descriptions insist you're "drawing from the netherworld," and *that* annoys me too, and that's always been part of the game.

 

So I'm voicing that view in preference of *not* having something else to handwave away.

[Biff Pow]

My suggestion would be to turn Flurry into a cone attack like Shadow Maul, but move it to the third tier (need two Speed powers to unlock it.)

 

Then either drop Whirlwind down to the first tier (it's not like people are going to be rushing to take it anyway), or add a new single target attack (with a teleport effect, a quick entry into melee.)

[SwitchFade]

The revamp to speed pool.... No thanks.

[Random Axis]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:25 AM, Rigged said:

• If you choose to replace a power, perhaps move Hasten and/or Burnout to a different power pool. Call it Temporal or something. Put in a slow, a Hold, and maybe a Teleport variant, presto, new pool set. Note: I am not advocating a Hasten nerf, at least not in this thread. Hasten being a problematic power is another discussion that always sidetracks discussions on the usefulness of the Speed pool powers, so let's just... not.

 

Honestly, the near universality of Hasten makes me think it should be added to the Inherent pool. Either as a fifth option or by combining Leaping and Speed into a single power. In my perfect world, inherent hasten would still need to be picked as a power, That would free up a another pool selection so we can have or see some diversification. Then the speed pool can be what you want it to be: a garage sale version of Speedster primary/secondary pool.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Wow this is certainly an interesting suggestion.

Personally I think kinetic melee should technically be the speedster melee since it should absorb speed from opponents and not just damage.

Perhaps taking super speed and flurry unlocks new temp power burst of speed? something like the other new pools gimmick.

I don't use hasten but others worship the power so good luck with any changes there.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Random Axis said:

Honestly, the near universality of Hasten makes me think it should be added to the Inherent pool. Either as a fifth option or by combining Leaping and Speed into a single power. In my perfect world, inherent hasten would still need to be picked as a power, That would free up a another pool selection so we can have or see some diversification. Then the speed pool can be what you want it to be: a garage sale version of Speedster primary/secondary pool.

The inherent powers are called that because every character gets them inherently. No need to choose Swift, Hurdle, Health, or Stamina because they are inherent to all characters, so they always have those powers available and active. And Hasten should never be an inherent power. It is a speed power. That so many take it does not change that. If the logic for Hasten going inherent is that so many take it, then there will also be a call for Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping to be made inherent. If people want to stick with the Holy Quad, then that is their choice, not need. No to inherent Hasten.

[InvaderStych]

Porting Burst of Speed and taking away some of the unique identity of Martial Combat?

 

No thanks.

 

Giving Speed Pool a reasonable version of Vorpal Judgement with a smaller cone, less damage, lower target cap, bonuses from taking additional powers, and reasonable dmg/recharge/endo/etc balance is something I could support though.

[Random Axis]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

The inherent powers are called that because every character gets them inherently. No need to choose Swift, Hurdle, Health, or Stamina because they are inherent to all characters, so they always have those powers available and active. And Hasten should never be an inherent power. It is a speed power. That so many take it does not change that. If the logic for Hasten going inherent is that so many take it, then there will also be a call for Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping to be made inherent. If people want to stick with the Holy Quad, then that is their choice, not need. No to inherent Hasten.

As a history lesson, The Inherent pool used to be the fitness pool, and only took on its current form because...wait for it...it was constraining builds because it was so good everyone took it. You certainly don't seem to mind that change. Similarly, Hasten is too good to be without and means your four pool choices are really only three, and THAT is what I want to break. 

 

There are more ways than that of making it happen though. I'd be just as happy if Hasten's recharge could not be reduced like with Rune of Protection. That gets rid of perma-Hasten making the skill much less valuable and less of a must-have. Or change the minor endurance drain at the end to a moderate -recovery effect (let's pull -40% for 60 seconds out our rear ends). That's not a big deal if Hasten is something you pop for a boss fight, but having permanent hasten permanently gimps your character.

 

I've got plenty of ideas for those other powers too, but I don't want a big sidetrack on the details of those. Plus, there's a huge difference between taking a power just to slot enhancements into vs one you take for the power's effects. Your blaster isn't taking hasten so it can hold two -recharge IOs, and they aren't taking weave or maneuvers for the defense bonus.