Making the Origins section of Character Creation more engaging.

[GreyScribe]

Welcome to the Grey Scribe's patented Wonder Wall of Text™ 

Feel free to enjoy my ramblings below if you want plenty of extraneous detail, or just run your eyes over the Rikti innovation of the TL:DR on the very next line! 

TL:DR - This is a proposal to integrate themed customization sets called "Paradigms" into the Origins screen in Character Creation.  Paradigms are collections of costumes, animations, stances, origin powers and other mostly cosmetic customizations applied to your character as defaults during character creation.  These defaults can be overridden at any time during creation or later at a Tailor.

 

Why is the Origins screen so forgettable?

As a chronic altaholic I spend a lot of time in the Character Creation section, jumping back and forth between Powers, Body, Custom, etc.  I never spend much time in the Origins section and sometimes I even forget which origin I originally selected and must check that it matches the current concept of my character as it has evolved during the creation process.  This is a bit disheartening to me as it is the first screen I see in Character Creation and is often at the heart of inspiring my character ideas, but there is so little to do on that screen.

I’ve had a look around and there are several interesting threads about making origins more relevant in the game, with suggestions such as more origin themed content involving contacts, missions, powersets and so forth.  But I kept coming back to how central origins are to the creation of a character, and that should kick in right at the start of the process and then naturally inform your character’s journey through the game.

So here is my vision for a more engaging and meaningful Origins screen:

 

Select an origin as normal, but instead of a couple of lines vaguely describing your origin you open a second menu of ‘Paradigms’ for that origin.  Paradigms are themed suites of animations, stances, origin powers, and other mostly cosmetic options for your character.  For example:

 

Magic Paradigms

Enigma – your character is a blank slate to shape as you wish, their powers are tied to mystical or divine forces that they control. (All origins have this default option which is the equivalent of the current freeform character creation process.)

Undead – your character is a revenant driven by dark magic or divine will to linger in this world until their true purpose is fulfilled.

Mystic – your character is an avatar of the arcane, effortlessly wielding magicks that would destroy the mind and soul of a lesser mortal.   What will they do with this power?

Outsider – your character is an intruder from another plane of existence, struggling to hide their true form from the inhabitants of this world lest it drive them mad.  What dire circumstances could force them to reveal their secret?

 

Science Paradigms.

Enigma – your character is a blank slate to shape as you wish, they gained their powers through the benefits of modern science, either through experimentation or by accident.

Reanimated – your character has been resurrected by mad science.  Their past is a murky jumble of splintered memories, their future filled with disturbing revelations they may regret uncovering.

Android – your character is an artificial intelligence housed in a fantastically advanced humanoid chassis.  Is their destiny bound to the designs of their creator or will they break free and take control of their fate?

Quantum – your character has unlocked the secrets of the multiverse.  They can reach across dimensions and unlock the powers and abilities of an alternate version of themselves.  But what happens if their alternate reaches back?

 

Mutation Paradigms.

Enigma – your character is a blank slate to shape as you wish,  their powers are derived from genetic manipulation or evolutionary alteration.

Bestial - your character has mutated beyond the human norm, gaining traits from various evolutionary lineages.  Will they be able to hold on to their humanity?

Psychic - your character has undergone a psychic awakening, unlocking the true potential of the human mind.  Will they empathise with the shared experiences of humanity or grow to despise the limited perspectives of those around them?

Metamorphosis - your character has undergone a traumatic experience leaving them with an unstable genetic structure.  Any stress or strong emotion can trigger an alarming transformation.  Will they be able to control the monster within?

 

Technology Paradigms.

Enigma – your character is a blank slate to shape as you wish, the source of their powers is the technological gadgets and devices they wield.

Cyborg - your character has received multiple cybernetic implants.  Improvements or mutilations?  Only time will tell.

Power Suit - your character has access to the latest in defensive and offensive technology all in one package.  Will this power drive them to heroism or infamy?

Nanotech - your character has embraced the power of nanotechnology to reshape the building blocks of their body into a powerful new form.  Can they safely maintain their identity after such a dramatic change?

 

Natural Paradigms.

Enigma – your character is a blank slate to shape as you wish, their powers are simply natural talents that they have honed and developed to super-human levels.

Survivor - your character has endured many trials with just their wits and will to survive.  It's got them this far but can their knack for improvisation and pure grit get them through the challenges that lie ahead?

Soldier - your character has trained their entire life to become an army of one.  Will they fight to defend the innocent or use their deadly skills to obtain power over those too weak to wield it themselves?

Martial Artist - your character has mastered ancient techniques that enables them to transform their body into a living weapon.  Now the only remaining question is where will that weapon be targeted?

 

As you progress through character creation you select Archetype, Powers, Body and then you come to Costume and find the character displaying the costume set for that Paradigm.  Each Paradigm has a costume set for the three body types.  The Paradigm sets such as Natural Survivor or Technology Nanotech are included in the Costume Sets list. 

After refining your costume (or totally replacing it) you move on to Custom where you will see menus for your Primary and Secondary power sets and your Origin Paradigm.  Some powers may have Paradigm options already selected.  (Such as control collars for Technology Masterminds or spell-casting animations for Magic blasters.)  Again, Paradigm power schemes are selectable in the powerset menus. (e.g. Demon Summoning:  Original, Bright, Dark, Technology Collars, Magic Enchantment, Science Portal, Mutation Pheromones, Natural Charisma.)

The Origin Paradigm menu lists various other customization options:  Idle stance, Combat stance, Walk, Sprint, Flight Pose, Origin Power, Paradigm Power, etc.

Finally, you move on to the Register screen and the Origin Paradigm description is transferred to the Character Description, with your character’s name inserted at the start and you are ready to enter the City of Heroes.

 

How would Paradigms work?

The Paradigms are built upon the existing Costume and Customization systems and thus could start small and grow as new assets and functions are added in the future.

Ideally, any new or adapted content for the Paradigms would be available to all players via Customization or P2W.  Players could cherry pick individual Paradigm assets to flesh out their original (Enigma) concepts either during character creation or later visits to the Tailor.  Players who choose a specific Paradigm could still select any other costume or customization options to modify their character as they see fit.

The Origin Paradigms above were brainstormed quickly, obviously many more are possible.  My examples represent increasingly advanced Paradigms that might be possible for each origin.  A basic monstrous/instinctive option, an expert paragon and a transformative character.  

Paradigms in the game should be tailored for each origin and be much more varied and diverse than my initial examples.  They could be linked to various factions, events and storylines.  They could also apply specific effects for different Archetypes and powersets. 

The community could suggest new Paradigms as well as take part in special Costume Contests to design Costume Sets for them.  Popular Paradigms and Paradigm suggestions could help guide development of new costume assets and animations.

 

 The Basics:  Undead, Reanimated, Bestial, Cyborg and Survivor.

These Paradigms represent concepts that an experienced player could probably recreate using current costume and customization systems with a few extra twists.  Custom Origin and Inherent powers could be added to the game with various tweaks to damage types and animations for each Paradigm along with alternative stances and travel power animations.

For example, the Magic Undead Paradigm could replace the origin power of Apprentice Charm with an equivalent Projectile Vomit attack with Toxic damage.    The Brawl attack’s animation could be replaced with a zombie slap.  This Paradigm would also have the zombie Idle stance and zombie walk animation and Flies aura by default.   They could have unique death and revival animations.

A Mutation Bestial Paradigm could replace the Mutagen origin power with Venom Spit or a version of the tongue strike attack of the Hordeling Lasher and use Beast Run as their default run animation.  They may have secondary mutations that only activate in certain circumstances, like sprouting wings when taking flight.

The Science Reanimated Paradigm could replace Tranq Dart with  a short range electrical Zap that stuns an enemy.

The Technology Cyborg Paradigm could have rocketboot effects when jumping or in flight.  Their Brawl power could be replaced with an "Electronux" punch.

A Natural Survivor could replace the Throwing Knives origin power with a rock throw attack.

 

The Paragons:  Mystic, Android, Psychic, Power Suit, Soldier

These Paradigms represent individuals who are focused on mastering their powers.  They may utilise customization options that don't currently exist in the game.  These include various travel power animations, and alternative power animations that have been requested for the various origins.

The Magic Mystic Paradigm has a default fly/hover pose of the lotus position.  They may use a spellbook, wand or staff as the focus for many of their powers.  Mystic Masterminds mark their henchmen with an arcane rune.  Weapons used by a Mystic will often show signs of enchantment.

The Science Android Paradigm has several built-in weapon ports (similar to the Praetorian Clockwork) letting them generate both ranged and melee attacks.

The Mutant Psychic Paradigm hovers like the Praetorian Seers by default.  They can wield weapons telekinetically.  Their origin power is a psionic flash accompanied by the Throat Slash emote that causes an enemy to choke helplessly.  Psychic Masterminds mark their henchmen with halos of psychic energy.  

The Technology Power Suit Paradigm has various shoulder mounted weapons that deploy when in combat mode as well as various beam emitters in their gauntlets, chest and helmet.  Power Suit Masterminds fit their henchman with control collars tied directly to their suit's systems.

Natural Soldier Paradigms are masters of weaponry.  They generate most of their attacks with weapons.  Their origin power is a random selection of sidearm temporary powers.  Soldiers have a default idle stance of at ease, saluting or marching in place.   Soldier Masterminds issue each of their henchmen with a squad patch.

 

The Transformers:  Outsider, Quantum, Metamorphosis, Nanotech, Martial Artist.

These Paradigms are almost the "Epic" Paradigms and have some similarities to the Epic Archetypes.  They transform like the Kheldians and have a unique locked costume slot like the VEATs.   They embody the various transformation tropes:  Magic Girl, Jekyll/Hyde, shapeshifters, etc.   Their locked costume slot represents their "battleform" and whenever they are in combat stance they transform into that form with a brief unique animation.  Outside of combat they revert to the next slot which starts off as a male, female or huge "civilian" which along with their battleform can then be customised at any Tailor as normal.  Some of the battleforms may have unique body type, animation or costume options that are incompatible with some powersets or other costume parts.  This could include alternate death animations such as a Nanotech Paradigm dissolving into grey goo revealing their civilian form, the Outsider being pulled into an arcane portal leaving their civilian 'host' behind, the Quantum splitting in two and one of them vanishing and so forth.

(Interesting possibility:  Transformers could use the /sheathe command to force a change back to their civilian form.)

 

Finally, he's nearly stopped typing!

If you have read all this, thank you for the opportunity to brainstorm this concept, I hope you enjoyed it and that it sparked some ideas of your own.   If you have any thoughts about the Paradigm system, please share them. 

 

[Rudra]

47 minutes ago, GreyScribe said:

Outsider – your character is an intruder from another plane of existence, struggling to hide their true form from the inhabitants of this world lest it drive them mad.  What dire circumstances could force them to reveal their secret?

I make my outsider characters as Natural origin since their abilities are racial (inherent) rather than arriving from a magic source of some kind.
 

 

47 minutes ago, GreyScribe said:

Android – your character is an artificial intelligence housed in a fantastically advanced humanoid chassis.  Is their destiny bound to the designs of their creator or will they break free and take control of their fate?

That's technology origin, not science origin. Also fits in with the cyborg under technology. For science, I would recommend Vat Grown, Artificial Human, Replicant, or similar.

 

 

47 minutes ago, GreyScribe said:

Players who choose a specific Paradigm could still select any other costume or customization options to modify their character as they see fit.

Thank you for this. Without it, I would have been very opposed to the OP.

 

47 minutes ago, GreyScribe said:

The Transformers:  Outsider, Quantum, Metamorphosis, Nanotech, Martial Artist.

These Paradigms are almost the "Epic" Paradigms and have some similarities to the Epic Archetypes.  They transform like the Kheldians and have a unique locked costume slot like the VEATs.   They embody the various transformation tropes:  Magic Girl, Jekyll/Hyde, shapeshifters, etc.   Their locked costume slot represents their "battleform" and whenever they are in combat stance they transform into that form with a brief unique animation.  Outside of combat they revert to the next slot which starts off as a male, female or huge "civilian" which along with their battleform can then be customised at any Tailor as normal.  Some of the battleforms may have unique body type, animation or costume options that are incompatible with some powersets or other costume parts.  This could include alternate death animations such as a Nanotech Paradigm dissolving into grey goo revealing their civilian form, the Outsider being pulled into an arcane portal leaving their civilian 'host' behind, the Quantum splitting in two and one of them vanishing and so forth.

This is too niche and pigeon holes players into a very limited interpretation of what it means to play an Outsider or Martial Artist. Transformations into battle forms are not common for outsider characters, though are very possible. And even less so for martial artist characters. I would recommend taking this and breaking it into an optional secondary paradigm available to all: The Transformer. Because transformations are thematic for a lot of characters regardless of their origin, and not transforming is also thematic for those you are portraying as being transforming characters.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "cybord" to "cyborg".

[biostem]

I'd rather have all animations available to everyone, and perhaps a bit of a tutorial or in-game guide explaining how to set the options each player wants for their characters.

[Player2]

When the game was first released (or pretty early into it), people complained about being straightjacketed by origins.  What natural means to some can be entirely different to others.  Is your science actual science or science fiction bordering on magic?  And as for magic, there are many who equate the trope of "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" as meaning that magic is advanced technology.  So the original developers pulled back a little on trying to make origins mean something.  Then they introduced a new bonus attack power (throwing knives, tranquilizer dart, etc) and starting missions that were tied to your origin, and once again I believe there was some complaint (probably from completionists that would have been upset that there were 4 arcs they wouldn't have access to since they could only choose one origin).  These days the bonus power is easily traded out for whichever one you want at the P2W Vendors, and I don't know what became of the origin-specific missions.

 

But the TLDR version is that people get fussy when you try to make origins meaningful because some people just don't like to be so blatantly confined by the simple choice from 5 options... especially when you can have vastly different interpretations.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Player2 said:

When the game was first released (or pretty early into it), people complained about being straightjacketed by origins.  What natural means to some can be entirely different to others.  Is your science actual science or science fiction bordering on magic?  And as for magic, there are many who equate the trope of "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" as meaning that magic is advanced technology.  So the original developers pulled back a little on trying to make origins mean something.  Then they introduced a new bonus attack power (throwing knives, tranquilizer dart, etc) and starting missions that were tied to your origin, and once again I believe there was some complaint (probably from completionists that would have been upset that there were 4 arcs they wouldn't have access to since they could only choose one origin).  These days the bonus power is easily traded out for whichever one you want at the P2W Vendors, and I don't know what became of the origin-specific missions.

 

But the TLDR version is that people get fussy when you try to make origins meaningful because some people just don't like to be so blatantly confined by the simple choice from 5 options... especially when you can have vastly different interpretations.

Make a new character, do either the Outbreak tutorial or skip the tutorials and go to Atlas Park. Walk into City Hall and go down the stairs. The five origin specific offices are there and the starting character origin specific contacts with their arcs are there, waiting for any player to hit them up. All origins can do all those arcs without constraint. That was a change made back on Live allowing everyone to do all the origin specific starter arcs if they wanted before the new starter arcs starting with Matthew Habashi were added.

[biostem]

Yeah - the problem is that the origins are quite vague.  As @Player2 intimated, what one player defines as "magic" another player may declare a natural innate ability of their character's race.  A primitive character may treat a nanotech item as a magical talisman.  Who is the objective arbiter that will say, definitively, which is correct? **Queue mandatory argument as to whether Superman's abilities are a "natural" result of his race's interaction with our sun, or whether said exposure falls under "science"**

Edited June 14, 2023 by biostem

[Player2]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Yeah - the problem is that the origins are quite vague.  As @Player2 intimated, what one player defines as "magic" another player may declare a natural innate ability of their character's race.  A primitive character may treat a nanotech item as a magical talisman.  Who is the objective arbiter that will say, definitively, which is correct? **Queue mandatory argument as to whether Superman's abilities are a "natural" result of his race's interaction with our sun, or whether said exposure falls under "science"**

Superman is magical science, naturally.

He's also had robot "clones."

And there was that time he was split into Superman Red and Superman Blue with electric powers...  mutation??

 

Good grief, Superman is all origins.

[biostem]

Ever look closely at the Single-Origin enhancements?  They are just wacky.  How are "greys", as in the stereotypical aliens, magic origin?  Apparently "catalysts" are mutation, not science, and it would seem that dragons, (or at least various aspects of them), are natural...

[Greycat]

41 minutes ago, biostem said:

Ever look closely at the Single-Origin enhancements?  They are just wacky.  How are "greys", as in the stereotypical aliens, magic origin?  Apparently "catalysts" are mutation, not science, and it would seem that dragons, (or at least various aspects of them), are natural...

 

The "greys" mentioned are not aliens. It's Grey, capitalized, as in a name. It's buried ... eh, somewhere in lore. If I can dig it up, I'll edit to add it.

 

Edit: Or not so buried. In the SO description, it describes "Grey, the entity of exploration."

Edited June 14, 2023 by Greycat

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

The "greys" mentioned are not aliens. It's Grey, capitalized, as in a name. It's buried ... eh, somewhere in lore. If I can dig it up, I'll edit to add it.

Maybe tied to "The Lady Grey", since they mention several times that they utilize magic to combat the Rikti.  Either way, those enhancements use a generic alien icon...

[Greycat]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

Maybe tied to "The Lady Grey", since they mention several times that they utilize magic to combat the Rikti.  Either way, those enhancements use a generic alien icon...

 

Nope, see above. 🙂  As for the alien icon, probably just a bit of tongue in cheek (after all, "visiting from another planet/galaxy" is pretty exploration-like) and a bit of "we need something that looks distinct from the other icons."

[Gobbledygook]

Change Soldier to Military.

Each branch has it's own title for it's members.

Marines: Marine (We don't wanna confuse them)

Air Force: Airman

Navy: Sailor

Army: Soldier

For your own safety, never call a Marine a Soldier.

Perhaps just make it "Military"

[GreyScribe]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  

 

Right from the start I want Paradigms to give players more choices, rather than lock them down which is why every origin has the Enigma option up first, letting the player start from  scratch if they want.  The other Paradigms again are customizable during character creation using all available options.  Paradigms are based on the current system, it isn't trying to alter it that much, mostly through adding new options and an interface to select them quickly, hopefully accompanied by future UI improvements (like searchable/sortable lists, tags etc.).  You can pick the Natural Martial Artist Paradigm and then fit them with big Cybergauntlets in the Costume section if you want just like the current system.  A Paradigm is meant to be a starting point for your character creation process not the final product - you make that your own via Archetype, powerset selection, customization, with a Paradigm as an extra choice.

 

That also feeds into the names and descriptions of the Paradigms - just like the origins themselves they are on the vague side and can be handwaved aside in your personal concept of the character if you want.  So I would like to see a "Noir Detective" Paradigm for Natural say, but not "Grizzled middle-aged Private Investigator with a drinking problem".  Also there is nothing stopping someone choosing a Magic Mystic Paradigm, but then selecting the "Noir Detective" costume set to create a Constantine-like character for example or any other combination they desire.

 

Rudra and Biostem - your comments on the various Paradigms kind of make my point, the Paradigm names cannot hope to cover everyone's concepts and aren't intended to.  Martial Artist was just a quick and dirty title for exploring the Dragon Ball trope of transforming fighters.  We could change it to Martial Arts Transformation and have a more realistic Martial Artist or MMA Paradigm.  We could also have an Alien Shapeshifter Paradigm as a Transformer under Natural as well. 

 

We could debate about how creating an artificial humanoid via the science of Genetics in a technologically advanced Vat is a Scientific origin, but creating an artificially intelligent Android via the science of Neural Networks is not?  The line between Science and Tech has always been blurry.  My personal headcanon usually revolves around creation vs application.  If a character is created or greatly changed by a scientific process (often via some sort of Technology) then I lean towards Science.  If a character is choosing to use Technology directly to achieve their purposes then Tech is the origin I choose.  Even that distinction isn't black and white so the definition will be different for everyone.  A cyborg could quite easily fit in either origin as far as I'm concerned.  A modern soldier uses a wide array of technologies but most people (and the SO enhancements) place them firmly in Natural.  But I could also see a Super Soldier Paradigm in Science as well as the Tech Power Suit for exploring military concepts with different origins.

 

Gobbledygook - The Soldier Paradigm is just based on my very limited personal knowledge of military personnel.  I'm Australian and we don't have Marines in our armed forces, so I didn't even consider that.  Military Training is a fine name for the Paradigm.  Again, the Paradigms are not meant to be the one true definition of an origin but exploring various familiar tropes as starting points for character creation.  I was thinking Rambo or the Punisher for example rather than actual military personnel and I couldn't name either their military ranks or which branches of the Armed Forces they served in but if you asked me about their origins I would say soldier.

 

The Outsider was inspired by the possession trope where a magical entity possesses a human host and then transforms them (the Kheldians are the alien equivalent in game) such as the demon Etrigan or Raven from DC comics or Ghost Rider and Thor from Marvel.  I just didn't want to limit it only to demons but also include curses and such.  The description could have been clearer.  Of course there are several other supernatural tropes that could be used for Paradigms:  Phantoms, Tricksters, the Fey.  Again Origins can blur any suitably advanced technology can easily be confused with magic as Biostem mentioned.  And a 'magic' entity from another realm isn't that different to an intruder from an alternate timeline or different dimension.  And if we start contemplating Reality Benders then all bets are off. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Player2]

24 minutes ago, GreyScribe said:

We could debate about how creating an artificial humanoid via the science of Genetics in a technologically advanced Vat is a Scientific origin, but creating an artificially intelligent Android via the science of Neural Networks is not?  The line between Science and Tech has always been blurry.

 

We could debate it, but it's pretty obvious that the intended difference between science and tech in this game is that tech requires hardware (whether nanobots, cybernetics, or just external gizmos like guns or force field generators or whatever), while science is more like mutation... but artificially induced.  Yep, mutation is science, too... but it happens naturally.  But wait, if mutation happens naturally, wouldn't that make it a natural origin?

 

We could debate all the origins, really...  but it's easier to leave them vague and let them mean whatever to each individual player.

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Player2 said:

We could debate it, but it's pretty obvious that the intended difference between science and tech in this game is that tech requires hardware (whether nanobots, cybernetics, or just external gizmos like guns or force field generators or whatever), while science is more like mutation... but artificially induced. 

From the descriptions I remember, both technology and science origins are the character receiving their abilities through the application of scientific/engineering modification, except that in the case of the science origin, the results weren't what was intended, and are not (usually) directly reproducible. Now, this opens up another can of worms in that you can argue that a character originally from a dimension like Poul Anderson's "Operation Chaos", where magic is the technology, could justify any of magic, technology, or science as an origin, or, with a bit of backstory about being the child of a character altered by magic, as mutation as well. I think that, once the original game design threw out origin-based power structuring, that the origins were made as vague as they were was specifically to allow players to twist them around in different ways to justify their characters' background.

[Major_Decoy]

There is a game to be made in which origins matter. It is not this one.

 

All of these paradigms are already available in the game, they're just things you have to write in the biography section of your character ID.

 

I don't see any reason to spend time developing a brand new system to limit access to new customization options.

[Chance Jackson]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:54 PM, Rudra said:

I make my outsider characters as Natural origin since their abilities are racial (inherent) rather than arriving from a magic source of some kind.
 

 

That's technology origin, not science origin. Also fits in with the cyborg under technology. For science, I would recommend Vat Grown, Artificial Human, Replicant, or similar.

 

 

Thank you for this. Without it, I would have been very opposed to the OP.

 

This is too niche and pigeon holes players into a very limited interpretation of what it means to play an Outsider or Martial Artist. Transformations into battle forms are not common for outsider characters, though are very possible. And even less so for martial artist characters. I would recommend taking this and breaking it into an optional secondary paradigm available to all: The Transformer. Because transformations are thematic for a lot of characters regardless of their origin, and not transforming is also thematic for those you are portraying as being transforming characters.

As for martial arts transformers I think OP has in mind "Battle Shonen" series (think DBZ, Ronin Warriors, Bleach etc) where Transformations are Very, VERY common & can lead to multiple levels of transformations within a single type of transformation or different types of transformations in a single series or combinations of both(combinations of multiple types of transformations employed by a single character).


 

I support a modified version of the concept where paradigms are entirely optional & nothing is locked behind it alternate animations/powers are available to all regardless of any choice or lack there of & ditto for transformations

Edited June 20, 2023 by Chance Jackson

[UltraAlt]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

These defaults can be overridden at any time during creation or later at a Tailor.

 

I suggest this be done with a [Paradigm Shift] button.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

As a chronic altaholic

 

 

I have to stop here for a second. I would put this in at the very beginning but I'm well down the list of of reading your post at this point.

I don't want you to start reading this and think that I don't understand all the time, thought, and detail that you put into your post.

It is enjoyable to read and I'm glad you took the time to share it with us.

 

I think the game pretty much covers what you are suggesting, and it would be more for people that don't really want to bother with Origins/Paradigms to begin with.

The players that do care about these things are already doing all of these things with the tools that the game provides us.

 

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

I never spend much time in the Origins section and sometimes I even forget which origin I originally selected and must check that it matches the current concept of my character as it has evolved during the creation process.

 

So I'm assuming that means that your "origin" isn't finally realized until after ...

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

I spend a lot of time in the Character Creation section, jumping back and forth between Powers, Body, Custom, etc.

 

At this point, it seems like instead of making a whole new system and allowing people to change their origin on the fly once they are in THE CITY, perhaps remembering to check your origin before entering THE CITY may help resolve this issue.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

I’ve had a look around and there are several interesting threads about making origins more relevant in the game, with suggestions such as more origin themed content involving contacts, missions, powersets and so forth.  But I kept coming back to how central origins are to the creation of a character, and that should kick in right at the start of the process and then naturally inform your character’s journey through the game.

 

The original City of Heroes mission paths were based on the origins you picked. (The are still in the game. They are the contacts downstairs in City Hall in Atlas Park.)

Neutral contacts like Matthew Habashy and Twinshot weren't a thing back then (They were added after the destruction of Galaxy City if I recall correctly).

There was no option to go to any of the other origin contacts or any other contacts for that matter.

If you picked Magic Origin, you were assigned to the Magic Origin contact and you had no other contacts, they offered you another contact ...which would be another magic contact. (If I recall correctly, the Hollows as the first low level alternate mission path away from origin contacts).

The Arcs progressed and the contacts start blending so that they become 2 Origin contacts, 3 Origin contacts, etc.

 

I'm exploring the the Origin paths (slowing down at this point due mission length and other projects) here:

 

 

You can still follow the mission arcs, but you have to check the wiki when you pick the next contact to make sure that they fit your origin if you want to stick with the arc.

Also, often times, the origin contacts won't offer you another origin contact until you outlevel them, and then you have to go into the inactive contact window, find them and talk to them from there in order to get the next Origin contact.

 

I chart out the origin contacts with each origin in the first post on the thread and update this as I get the next contact for an origin.

Sometimes there are 2 or 3 Origin contacts for a level range, but the prior contact will only offer you one of them for some reason. (As indicated, check the wiki for the contact and it will tell you if they are for your origin or not).

 

The Origin mission arcs have been changed since the were originally released.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

But I kept coming back to how central origins are to the creation of a character, and that should kick in right at the start of the process and then naturally inform your character’s journey through the game.

 

I have to come back to this part on a different angle.

 

I'm a character conception player.

The BIO screen where you can write a limited amount of information (in some cases, players simply enter a url that links to a much longer document on their character) is primarily write about my characters origin story, state of mind, etc. 

 

This seems to be the kind of level of "Origin" diversity that you are looking for, but, if that has an impact on ingame missions (like it used to but with more variation) then there would have to be many more missions generated by the DEVs to fulfill those variations.

 

The AE is there to build missions that more concisely fit to the kind of adventures that you want a character to explore. May have already been written that are not for farming. (I know that seems to be impossible, but the AE was not intended to be abused to build farming missions. It was for players to express their creativity and share story ideas with other players).

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

Select an origin as normal, but instead of a couple of lines vaguely describing your origin you open a second menu of ‘Paradigms’ for that origin.  Paradigms are themed suites of animations, stances, origin powers, and other mostly cosmetic options for your character.  For example:

 

Okay, so your direction isn't so much toward the missions as it is to:

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

animations, stances, origin powers, and other mostly cosmetic options for your character

 

I already handle animations by creating macros for emotes that a character will tend to use.

Their are stances already in the game as well as the walking power, etc.

Origin powers are already there. I see you want to add variation, but you could just buy some P2W powers in that case... I already do this.

Whole lot of other mostly cosmetic options are already in the game ... unless you have something specific in mind. (maybe I missed this?)

 

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

As you progress through character creation you select Archetype, Powers, Body and then you come to Costume and find the character displaying the costume set for that Paradigm.  Each Paradigm has a costume set for the three body types.  The Paradigm sets such as Natural Survivor or Technology Nanotech are included in the Costume Sets list. 

 

Wow.

Not at all free form. 

Seems very constraining to a fault to me, but I can see how someone people don't want to bother with building a costume, picking from the list of costume types that are already pre-set in the costume creator, or using the randomizer button.

 

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

After refining your costume (or totally replacing it) you move on to Custom where you will see menus for your Primary and Secondary power sets and your Origin Paradigm

 

oh, so it is like picking one of the costume types that are already listed in the costume creator and starting from there.

The function is already set to in the costume creator to do this so I see no reason to rework the origins selection to guide you to a preselected costume that is already an option as a set in the costume creator.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

These Paradigms represent concepts that an experienced player could probably recreate using current costume and customization systems with a few extra twists.  Custom Origin and Inherent powers could be added to the game with various tweaks to damage types and animations for each Paradigm along with alternative stances and travel power animations.

 

Yes. These Paradigm themes, etc. seem to the same things that many of us have been doing with the system for years.

 

Tweaking power sets based on sub-types of Origins? I seriously doubt this will happen. They don't change across the Origins as it is now. They are static across origins because you would have to rebalance a set if you tweaked part of it. Want variation on a power set ... pick a different archetype.

You can get origin related temporary powers by running the origin missions and may of the other arcs as well (check out Striga).

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

They embody the various transformation tropes:  Magic Girl, Jekyll/Hyde, shapeshifters, etc

 

I do this with the costume change emotes.

You can use them at level 1.

 

/macro name "cc #"
/macro name "cce # ccemote"
/macro IB  "cce # ccemote$$goto_tray 9"
/macro Super "cce # ccemote$$goto_tray 1"
name = name of your macro
cce # = slot # first slot is 0, second is 2, etc

The IB macro is meant to be an innocent bystander costume with a related tray that has bystander powers. The costume emote is linked to the character's innocent bystander clothes.

The Super macro flips to a tray with superpowers in it. The costume emote is linked to the character's action costume.

ccemote = one of these below
ccbackflip cchowl ccevillaugh ccspin ccnuke 
cclightning ccprestochango ccdrinkformula 
ccsmokebomb ccninjaleap CCDimensionShift ccfurburst 
ccsalute ccvanguardsigil cccast ccsuperserum 
ccenergymorph ccrapidboil ccfeatherburst 
ccfurspin ccoilstrike ccpressurerelease 
cciceblock ccstoneblock ccfireworks 
ccpureenergy ccnuke ccmurderofcrows 
ccconfettithrow ccgiftburst ccinnerwill 
cclightmagic ccrainbow

 

Each costume slot can have a different costume, stance, power customization, size, and even gender.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

This could include alternate death animations such as a Nanotech Paradigm dissolving into grey goo revealing their civilian form, the Outsider being pulled into an arcane portal leaving their civilian 'host' behind, the Quantum splitting in two and one of them vanishing and so forth.

 

Extra death animations? Seems to go out of the way to provide something that most of us are trying to avoid.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:12 PM, GreyScribe said:

Finally, he's nearly stopped typing!

If you have read all this, thank you for the opportunity to brainstorm this concept, I hope you enjoyed it and that it sparked some ideas of your own.   If you have any thoughts about the Paradigm system, please share them. 

 

Thanks.

I enjoyed reading your posts.

 

I think the game pretty much covers most of what you are suggesting, and it would be more for people that don't really want to bother with Origins/Paradigms to begin with.

The players that do care about these things are already doing most of these things with the tools that the game provides us.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

On 6/18/2023 at 11:20 AM, GreyScribe said:

Gobbledygook

 

if you want to alert a particular player use the @ sign before their name .... example @GreyScribe

 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

As for martial arts transformers I think OP has in mind "Battle Shonen" series (think DBZ, Ronin Warriors, Bleach etc) where Transformations are Very, VERY common & can lead to multiple levels of transformations within a single type of transformation or different types of transformations in a single series or combinations of both(combinations of multiple types of transformations employed by a single character).

 

This can be done with costume change emotes and costume slots.

 

I have werewolf characters with the following forms:

Innocent bystander (Athletic running with/without Parkour Stance when travel power on)

Wolfman (Beast run with travel power on)

Werewolf (Beast run stance)

 

And I use costume change emotes to 変身/henshin/transform into the next form.

 

I have lots of other character types/themes that use the 変身/henshin/transform in this manner.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

As for martial arts transformers I think OP has in mind "Battle Shonen" series (think DBZ, Ronin Warriors, Bleach etc) where Transformations are Very, VERY common & can lead to multiple levels of transformations within a single type of transformation or different types of transformations in a single series or combinations of both(combinations of multiple types of transformations employed by a single character).


 

I support a modified version of the concept where paradigms are entirely optional & nothing is locked behind it alternate animations/powers are available to all regardless of any choice or lack there of & ditto for transformations

I have a few characters with battle transformations. Typically rage driven. This can already be accomplished by using the available costume slots and costume change emotes. However, while in animes like you are describing such transformations may be common, in other shows and games and comics that cover the same genre (super-powered martial arts/warriors), the transformations are very much not present. That is the root of my comment. Some characters transform and others do not. Making a paradigm that says 'okay, you are a martial artist type, you have a normal form and a transformed battle form' very much goes against the grain for a very large swathe of the legends/myths/lore of martial artist characters. From the skinny nobody that kicks the bad guy's ass to everyone's surprise, to the wandering monk/ronin, to the random street fighter fighting his/her way through a crime-infested city or to test himself/herself, to the kind-hearted tough looking out for the people, to the vicious enforcer laying down the crime boss' law and so on. Martial artist encompasses a massive array of character concepts of which the transforming fighter is a very small part. Same thing with outsider characters. And every other character type that transforms.

 

(Edit: Even in the examples you give, not all characters undergo transformations into battle forms despite also being martial artists or warriors.)

Edited June 20, 2023 by Rudra

[UltraAlt]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, Rudra said:

This can already be accomplished by using the available costume slots and costume change emotes. However, while in animes like you are describing such transformations may be common, in other shows and games and comics that cover the same genre (super-powered martial arts/warriors), the transformations are very much not present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually use transformations on some characters when/before they activate domination and switch back when once domination wears off.

 

On 6/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, Rudra said:

Some characters transform and others do not. Making a paradigm that says 'okay, you are a martial artist type, you have a normal form and a transformed battle form' very much goes against the grain for a very large swathe of the legends/myths/lore of martial artist characters.

 

Agreed with 100%.

 

On 6/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, Rudra said:

Martial artist encompasses a massive array of character concepts of which the transforming fighter is a very small part.

 

Very true. 

 

Any martial artist that studies a school will tend to have clothes that they train in that are different than there "street" clothes.

That isn't to say that they instantly transform into their "practice" clothes instantly if they run into a conflict on the street.

 

This is the same kind of thing that goes on with most superheroes.

Some characters spending more time in their "costume" than not. (Doctor Strange seems to be a good example of this.)

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by UltraAlt
replacing the Kamen Rider 変身 Video that was blocked - again with better 変身

[TheZag]

So its like the preset costumes but with extra steps?  Im not interested in it taking even longer on character creation.

 

[Herotu]

22 minutes ago, TheZag said:

So its like the preset costumes but with extra steps?  Im not interested in it taking even longer on character creation.

 

I like the OP's suggestion. It gives the player some ideas on what constitutes each Origin. With such open design options in CoH, more than any other game I know, it's good to have some ideas to guide design and ideas. When given a costume creator and no boundaries, I find I am very definitely affected by  decision paralysis .

 

I'd like to see some stuff that's unique to each Origin, but I recognise the game is all about having near-unlimited choice. This idea of choice ruins anything that players might want from Origins because they can only make something exclusive to an Origin and people will whine endlessly about anything that limits choice.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Herotu

[biostem]

8 hours ago, Herotu said:

It gives the player some ideas on what constitutes each Origin

The thing is, even the vague description the game gives us about each origin isn't set in stone.  Why pigeon-hole anyone at all?  An imaginative person can rationalize any powers for any origin, and given the presence of multiple worlds/dimensions in-game, what constitutes one origin on Primal Earth may not hold true for other worlds/dimensions.  A simple resource that says "here's how you can customize your stances/animations/auras/powers/etc" is all you need...