High-level Crey Resists

[Akisan]

So... running a solo Dr. Q. (WST) as an Archery/Ice/Fire blaster.  Can we please get a look at the balancing of level 45+ Crey?  They're brutal as a nearly pure Lethal build.  Literally every enemy in the group has 50% Lethal resistance, which makes them take significantly longer to drop than any other group.  (Which also makes them *much* more dangerous for my build, since I've somewhat low defenses...).

 

They're not a problem below that level, since the majority of them don't have Lethal Resist.  It's just that, starting at 45, they're all "Tanks" (and the Paragon Protectors become Elites, which grants 50% Lethal resist as well...)

[Saiyajinzoningen]

haha funny thing i was discussing with a few friends is that very few group foes are as well balanced as crey. Making them a difficult foe for more than just you. 

I am not in favor of a nerf for mobs considering that this game isn't very difficult.

How about instead we buff all other mobs to make Crey stand out less?

[Akisan]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I am not in favor of a nerf for mobs considering that this game isn't very difficult.

 

It's less that they need a nerf (it is nice that I really have to prioritize targets), it's that they *all* have the exact same resists - 50% Lethal, 25% Smashing/Fire/Ice/Energy, 0% Dark/Psi/Toxic, which rather discourages anyone dealing primarily Lethal damage.  Mixing up which tanks have which resists (example - Voltaic Tanks have 50% Energy resist, instead of Lethal) could go a long way towards fixing this.  (Side note on that prioritizing targets bit - It'd be really nice if I could tell what powers the Paragon Protecters have *before* engaging.)

 

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

How about instead we buff all other mobs to make Crey stand out less?

 

I'm okay with this.  Can we start with making Council relevant again?

[Uun]

All the Crey tanks regardless of level have those resists. The lvl 46+ ones just come in more variants. Dr. Q caps at lvl 45, so you could avoid the higher level variants if you ran it at less than max level or lowered your difficulty for the Crey missions. The reason only tanks spawn is because most of the non-armored Crey cap at lvl 40 or 45. 

 

For years people complained that the Crey were too easy. The buffed faction finally provides a challenge. My only complaint is that the Radiation Defender Paragon Protector Elites have Enervating Field with unresistable -resist debuff.

[Akisan]

15 minutes ago, Uun said:

All the Crey tanks regardless of level have those resists

 

Yes, and there is the problem.  Below level 46, it's not as noticeable, since they're mixed in with mobs that have no or minor Lethal resistance, so Lethal builds can clear some/most of the spawn, then work on the hard targets.  And, worth noting again - for some reason, the Paragon Protectors magically gain those exact resists too (they've no inherent resistances below 46).

 

21 minutes ago, Uun said:

The lvl 46+ ones just come in more variants. <snip>. The reason only tanks spawn is because most of the non-armored Crey cap at lvl 40 or 45. 

 

Funnily enough - I didn't see a single Cryo Tank the entire time (used to be just Voltaic & Cryo minions).  Were they removed in favor of the Gamma Tanks?

 

23 minutes ago, Uun said:

Dr. Q caps at lvl 45, so you could avoid the higher level variants if you ran it at less than max level or lowered your difficulty for the Crey missions

 

Running at +1x5 (+1 to match Alpha's level shift).  The level shift makes +0 or -1 a cakewalk, even at x8, and at +1x5, I'm usually dying more times per Crey mission than I do against +3x6 Malta, since there I can at least remove the priority targets (and yes, all Malta have some Lethal resistance, IIRC). 

 

36 minutes ago, Uun said:

For years people complained that the Crey were too easy. The buffed faction finally provides a challenge. My only complaint is that the Radiation Defender Paragon Protector Elites have Enervating Field with unresistable -resist debuff.

 

Agreed: Crey *are* easy - below level 46.  They've always been rather annoying for me (and thus, avoided) at 46+, since it's always been all Tanks.  With the changes though, they've got good killing power in addition to obnoxious resistances, so they're now extremely dangerous for my build.

 

I'm not asking for them to be nerfed or made less challenging overall, I'm asking that they not be disproportionately punishing for primarily Lethal builds. (And, as @Saiyajinzoningen mentioned - buffs to other groups, even if only to make Crey stand out less, would be appreciated as well)

[Greycat]

Psy powersets facing robots would like to have a word. >.>

 

I get the complaint, but on the other hand... why wouldn't they be resisting a fairly common damage type? Given the way damage and perma-everything capped-everything procmonstering has gone in the game (which, yeah, I find annoying since I don't tend to do that) having something to at least *try* to slow things down at high level is a fairly obvious response. It's just biting you right now.

 

1 hour ago, Akisan said:

It'd be really nice if I could tell what powers the Paragon Protecters have *before* engaging

 

Right click, info.  It names specifically what they are - energy, spines, etc. Makes it easy to deal with the MOGing energy ones.

[laudwic]

2 hours ago, Akisan said:

 

I'm okay with this.  Can we start with making Council relevant again?

 

Please no.  Yes, I know people farm Counsel Radio Missions in PI constantly.  

 

I just like that there is one enemy group that, if I'm having a bad day, I can solo a character and tear through them.  I don't need to find a group, I can just grab and go.  Considering the historical background of the group, I can't think of a better group to be able to grind into the ground.  

[Akisan]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Psy powersets facing robots would like to have a word. >.>

 

I get the complaint, but on the other hand... why wouldn't they be resisting a fairly common damage type? Given the way damage and perma-everything capped-everything procmonstering has gone in the game (which, yeah, I find annoying since I don't tend to do that) having something to at least *try* to slow things down at high level is a fairly obvious response. It's just biting you right now.

 

Said robots also resist Lethal (usually a 50% resistance as well).  Psi also has the distinction of being the least often resisted (tied with Negative Energy), though when it's resisted, it's usually heavily resisted. 

 

I'm not complaining that my damage type is being resisted (it feels like it'd be easier to list of the enemies that don't resist Lethal, than list the ones that do). Probably half the enemies in the game resist it, usually by about 20-30%.  I'm complaining about the severity of the resist, especially since every enemy in the group has it. (Pretty sure no other group does that to *any* damage type.  Not entirely sure though, that's not listed on Galaxy Brain's resistance listings.)

 

(And no, I don't run the proc-mongering perma-everything either.  Takes most of the challenge (and, for me, fun) out of it, so I'm sitting at ~55% recharge, and ~20% def/all. Higher difficulties are a proper threat challenge)

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Right click, info.  It names specifically what they are - energy, spines, etc. Makes it easy to deal with the MOGing energy ones.

 

Did not know that, and it's very helpful, thank you.  I have to be *much* more aggressive against the Rad PPs, locking them down first.

 

2 hours ago, laudwic said:

I just like that there is one enemy group that, if I'm having a bad day, I can solo a character and tear through them.  I don't need to find a group, I can just grab and go.  Considering the historical background of the group, I can't think of a better group to be able to grind into the ground.  

 

Fair enough, I'll pick a different group for buffs.  How about buffing Nemesis to the gills?  For someone that's always 2 moves ahead, he's starting to feel really far behind on the tech curve...

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, hard no vote.

 

They're difficult for a reason and that's a good thing. There are easier factions and harder factions...

 

Countess Crey and her cronies are no joke, by design.

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

My only complaint is that the Radiation Defender Paragon Protector Elites have Enervating Field with unresistable -resist debuff.

My understanding is that, unlike defense, the counter to -res is having higher res values, and not any sort of -res resistance...

[Uun]

49 minutes ago, biostem said:

My understanding is that, unlike defense, the counter to -res is having higher res values, and not any sort of -res resistance...

Normally that's true, but this version of Enervating Field ignores damage resistance and you get exposed to the full debuff. I've had it rip through a tank like paper. There's an NPC version of Tar Patch that does the same thing, but I forget which faction has it.

[ChocolateMercenary]

17 hours ago, Akisan said:

So... running a solo Dr. Q. (WST) as an Archery/Ice/Fire blaster.  Can we please get a look at the balancing of level 45+ Crey?  They're brutal as a nearly pure Lethal build.  Literally every enemy in the group has 50% Lethal resistance, which makes them take significantly longer to drop than any other group.  (Which also makes them *much* more dangerous for my build, since I've somewhat low defenses...).

 

They're not a problem below that level, since the majority of them don't have Lethal Resist.  It's just that, starting at 45, they're all "Tanks" (and the Paragon Protectors become Elites, which grants 50% Lethal resist as well...)

The Crey Tanks, that are all wearing standard Crey-issued power armor, for the purpose of being resistant to conventional weapons, have high lethal resist? I think that might be design intention. Not every powerset combination is going to be able to beat every enemy type. That's just life. This is like someone running a perma-Unstoppable build(I know it isn't possible, anymore) and getting mad when they can't solo the Abandoned Sewer Trial.

[Akisan]

1 hour ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

The Crey Tanks, that are all wearing standard Crey-issued power armor, for the purpose of being resistant to conventional weapons, have high lethal resist? I think that might be design intention.

Yes, that would be the design intention.  I'm questioning whether that design decision is valid.

 

1 hour ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Not every powerset combination is going to be able to beat every enemy type. That's just life. This is like someone running a perma-Unstoppable build(I know it isn't possible, anymore) and getting mad when they can't solo the Abandoned Sewer Trial.

 

This is... the kind of argument I'd expect if I was complaining about not being able to solo AVs, or Hardmode TFs, or Trials.  Not the kind of thing I would expect to be said about facing a standard enemy group.

[ChocolateMercenary]

On 7/5/2023 at 5:58 PM, Akisan said:

Yes, that would be the design intention.  I'm questioning whether that design decision is valid.

 

 

This is... the kind of argument I'd expect if I was complaining about not being able to solo AVs, or Hardmode TFs, or Trials.  Not the kind of thing I would expect to be said about facing a standard enemy group.

Take that same INV tank through Carnival of Shadows bosses and get back to me.

(Edit: This Came off as ridiculous and snobby. Let's try again.)

 

Archery is at the bottom of pylon testing, and you're fighting a group that has high lethal resists. You're having a bad time. I would be having the same bad time if I took a Psy/Inv scrapper the see the Carnival of Shadows. If I took my BS/WP scrapper through what you were doing, he would be having the same bad day, but If I took him through CoS, he would laugh his way though groups. What i'm saying, is that you need to pick your battles. Recognize what enemy groups are going to give you a hard time and plan for it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by ChocolateMercenary
Had to be less of a jerk.

[Burk]

8 hours ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Take that same INV tank through Carnival of Shadows bosses and get back to me.

(Edit: This Came off as ridiculous and snobby. Let's try again.)

 

Archery is at the bottom of pylon testing, and you're fighting a group that has high lethal resists. You're having a bad time. I would be having the same bad time if I took a Psy/Inv scrapper the see the Carnival of Shadows. If I took my BS/WP scrapper through what you were doing, he would be having the same bad day, but If I took him through CoS, he would laugh his way though groups. What i'm saying, is that you need to pick your battles. Recognize what enemy groups are going to give you a hard time and plan for it.

 

Unfortunately, unlike Crey that are all over the Dr. Q task force among others, there is no task force that involves Carnies aside from a single mission in Ice Mistral (technically Vanessa appears in Kahn, but she doesn't actually share the lethal vulnerability). So the only place lethal damage actually shines is nearly nonexistent in task force content.

[ChocolateMercenary]

3 hours ago, Burk said:

 

Unfortunately, unlike Crey that are all over the Dr. Q task force among others, there is no task force that involves Carnies aside from a single mission in Ice Mistral (technically Vanessa appears in Kahn, but she doesn't actually share the lethal vulnerability). So the only place lethal damage actually shines is nearly nonexistent in task force content.

Why is OP trying solo a TF full of lethal-resisting enemies, while using what seems the be the worst blaster primary? I'm not going to solo a group that's gonna walk on me. OP basically chose hard mode.

[Akisan]

12 hours ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Had to be less of a jerk.

 Appreciate it, and sorry for being a bit hostile towards your first response - I read it as being fairly condescending, even if you were just stating facts.

 

12 hours ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Take that same INV tank through Carnival of Shadows bosses and get back to me.

(Edit: This Came off as ridiculous and snobby. Let's try again.)

 

Archery is at the bottom of pylon testing, and you're fighting a group that has high lethal resists. You're having a bad time. I would be having the same bad time if I took a Psy/Inv scrapper the see the Carnival of Shadows. If I took my BS/WP scrapper through what you were doing, he would be having the same bad day, but If I took him through CoS, he would laugh his way though groups. What i'm saying, is that you need to pick your battles. Recognize what enemy groups are going to give you a hard time and plan for it.

 

I should clarify a bit - +1x5 (the difficulty I was running at) is my light difficulty.  For most groups, it's the difficulty at which I don't need to use my nuke, my incarnate powers, and, most of the time, I don't even have to prioritize targets.  Normally, I'll run at +2x6 to +3x8, depending on how easy the group is for me (dangerous stuff like Malta on the lower end, and CoS are higher, since they're weak to Lethal).

 

1 hour ago, ChocolateMercenary said:

Why is OP trying solo a TF full of lethal-resisting enemies, while using what seems the be the worst blaster primary? I'm not going to solo a group that's gonna walk on me. OP basically chose hard mode.

I already knew Crey were a problem for me (hence the lower TF difficulty) - 46+ Crey has been 50% resistant to Lethal since forever.  The only saving bit with them is that they didn't do a whole lot of damage (well, once I Held the PPs and Power Tanks). Mostly they just took forever to kill, so Crey missions took a while.  Also, this was my first encounter with them since they were buffed - and as far as I'm concerned, they really didn't need it.  It'd be like your Psy/Inv scrapper discovering that CoS now have a psi component on all attacks, and now also Slow, and the Steel Strongmen Taunt, because... they're too easy for some builds? 

 

So, yeah, Crey get to be the first group to be added to my "Do Not Engage" list, since they're now a ludicrously hard counter (I used to be class them as "very dangerous", alongside Malta and Rularuu).  Yep, even Malta, the guys who hunt supers, with their 30%+ resist and infinite duration Stun lots of CC, are significantly easier.  (Keep in mind - 30% resistance means you need to deal 1.5x damage, 50% is 2x.  That 20% resistance makes a huge difference).

 

And frankly, I brought that imbalance up here, since they're supposed to be a somewhat more difficult enemy to encounter, on par with Longbow, Arachnos, or Malta. Having an enemy group that feels that much more powerful than the other groups seems... wrong, like someone missed something when balancing content (I'd say the fault's with the Original Devs, and was simply added onto when our Devs expanded the group).

 

(And yes, I dropped that TF.  So not worth that level of frustration)

[Clave Dark 5]

Not to sound too flip, but isn't this game easy enough?

[Akisan]

That's why they've added Hardmode, and believe me, I wouldn't have any complaint about one of those groups being that difficult.  I'd even say Crey's pretty well balanced as one of said hardmode groups, though I might throw in more non-Lethal resists to round them out for it.

[Sakura Tenshi]

As someone who played a katana/sr scrapper on live, I’m just going to say that while I understand why lethal is so commonly resisted, it doesn’t feel like good gameplay design that it’s also so highly resisted. I get it: superhero game, no one just shoots Superman, but gameplay trumps “realism” and making lethal damage options effectively noob trap choices is really crappy.

 

now that all being said, I understand there are plans to look at the game and mob designs to be a bit more evened out, and there are probably going to be ongoing tweaks with existing sets in the future.

 

for my own personal suggestion to this, I’m sort of half and half, I’d want to suggest lethal damage sets getting a buff, but only because it’d theoretically be less work intensive than going through every single mob in the game to normalize resistances and such. But generally I feel like unless an enemy is an AV, there’s no reason they should have more than 40% resistance to anything.

[Tiger Shadow]

I don't mind Crey tanks having high lethal resist, the problem is that from level 46 onward, every spawn seems to be all Crey tanks. This means that my claws/spines/dualblades/katana/broadsword/battle axe/savage melee characters skip 46+ Crey missions whenever possible and I'm not sure that's what the devs intended.

[Sakura Tenshi]

11 hours ago, Tiger Shadow said:

I don't mind Crey tanks having high lethal resist, the problem is that from level 46 onward, every spawn seems to be all Crey tanks. This means that my claws/spines/dualblades/katana/broadsword/battle axe/savage melee characters skip 46+ Crey missions whenever possible and I'm not sure that's what the devs intended.

 

I mean, given the framework for the design of Crey (which the additional mobs partially inherited) dates back to issue 0 on live under Jack Emmert: yes, you're supposed to be softlocked from content without a team by their own logic. Edit: Also, if I recall, ordinary bosses were originally not meant to be solo fought under Jack Emmert's design philosophy. Heck, he didn't even want people being able to take on more than four or five minions. Now obviously, things changed even back on live, but like so many things and as with many games, we're stuck dealing with the legacy of old design concepts which are not necessarily true.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sakura Tenshi

[Rigged]

16 hours ago, Tiger Shadow said:

I don't mind Crey tanks having high lethal resist, the problem is that from level 46 onward, every spawn seems to be all Crey tanks. This means that my claws/spines/dualblades/katana/broadsword/battle axe/savage melee characters skip 46+ Crey missions whenever possible and I'm not sure that's what the devs intended.

 

This is actually a very good point - I am not particularly affected by this because I run a lot of procs, but top-end Crey have very poor mob diversity which is very clear when you do the missions only to find a sea of grey. A much better solution than nerfing their resists might simply be to create high-end crey agents and scientists so that not every Crey enemy in the 46-50 bracket is a tank.