Rikti pylon knockback - That knock magnitude ...

[EnjoyTheJourney]

A search didn't turn up information, hence this inquiry. 

 

It seems like lately rikti war zone pylon knockback has been a noticeable factor affecting pylon times. I don't recall having it be so noticeable in the past when I did a fair number of pylon tests. Has there been a change to pylon knockback in the last year, while I was taking a break from the game? Or, is my memory just in need of a reboot? Also, is the knockback magnitude calculated "per missile", with the magnitude stacking for every missile that hits?

 

Here is the City of Data link for rikti pylon ...

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=rikti.war_zone_pylon.swarm_missile&at=boss_archvillain

 

A sample of things done very recently to better manage knockback for a recent set of pylon tests for a poison / fire / mu defender ...

 

- 8 knockback magnitude reduction from slotting karma: knockback protection and steadfast: knockback protection

- keep casting weaken on the pylon, which is supposed to noticeably reduce knockback magnitude

- having rune of protection engaged when it can be, which is supposed to subtract 10 points from knockback magnitude, alternate with melee hybrid core

- having T4 clarion engaged and set to automatically re-activate

 

Doing a bit of math based on the foregoing, there's a steady 11.5 knockback magnitude reduction (IOs = -8 magnitude and clarity >= -3.5 magnitude). There's a 95% chance of a knockback magnitude reduction from weaken at any given point in time (not sure how much of a reduction, but it should be impactful), based on the "to hit" chance of >95% for weaken against +3 foes. Knockback magnitude reduction peaks in the 30s when clarion is in a "high buffs" part of its cycle and rune of protection is engaged. Knockback from pylons looks like it shouldn't be happening unless knock magnitude is stacking "per missile" when hit.

 

Sometimes this seemed to work because even when hit my poisoner wouldn't get knocked back. But, often it did not work, especially when clarion was in the "low buffs" part of its duration. 

 

Any clarity offered would be most helpful and appreciated. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Frosticus]

Missles do up to mag 12 knock.

I dont think weaken does anything to knockback mag anymore, but I could be misremembering.

 

I have mag 14 kb protection on my poison/fire/psi fender. Pylons don't knock me. 

 

Edit. I'm pretty sure you can still be knocked down (but maybe not back) with rune running 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Frosticus

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If weaken doesn't work as per its power explanation then it all makes sense. Thank you.

I'll look at squeezing 2 extra slots into knockback protection. It will also boost resists offered by rune of protection, so knocks should be no longer happening from the pylon after that.

 

Thank you for a road map forward. 

 

Edit: In the end I took one slot out of enflame, proc'd enflame up for better damage, lost 6.25% recharge by doing that, and put a blessing of the zephyr: knockback protection IO into mystic flight. I'll test it later today. 

 

After testing even at 12 magnitude knockback protection from IOs and clarion core T4 going once in a while there's still knockback. That's a bit surprising. That said, knockback frequency went down by a lot, which made the pylon fight more enjoyable. 

👍for the advice, thank you again.

Edited September 1, 2023 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Has there been a change to pylon knockback in the last year, while I was taking a break from the game?

 

No, nor any changes to Pylons, nor to the Rikti group, nor to the RWZ... and none to KB since vectored KB was implemented over two years ago.

 

4 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Also, is the knockback magnitude calculated "per missile", with the magnitude stacking for every missile that hits?

 

No, the missiles are a graphic.  The attack applies a DoT, not several separate attacks.

• • 236.1568 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.2s for 0.7s (100% chance)

The dot pulses the first damage at 0.0s, the second at 0.2s, the third at 0.4s and the last at 0.6s, and the duration expires before it reaches 0.8s, thus limiting it to 4 hits.  That's standard DoT mechanics. and DoT can't check for anything on each pulse, except DoT with a reduced hit chance (like Fire's bonus DoT).  DoT never looks at something like KB in the power defs, it only triggers whatever specific effect (in this case, damage) it was set to.

 

In order for it to check for KB on every damage pulse, the power would have to spawn a pseudo-pet at your location and function like a rain/patch; or it would have to be specifically set to apply a KB effect every x.x seconds like DoT.  Neither is the case with this power, it's just a standard DoT with a 100% chance for mag 8 KB and 40% chance for a mag 4 KB.  Those two KB chances are only checked once, when the power's hit roll is made, and if the power hits, the KB is only applied then and only that one time.  The 40% chance has to make a second hit roll, at -60%, and if that roll doesn't succeed, it doesn't trigger at all.

 

5 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Doing a bit of math based on the foregoing, there's a steady 11.5 knockback magnitude reduction (IOs = -8 magnitude and clarity >= -3.5 magnitude). There's a 95% chance of a knockback magnitude reduction from weaken at any given point in time (not sure how much of a reduction, but it should be impactful), based on the "to hit" chance of >95% for weaken against +3 foes.

 

At +3 to you, your debuffs are 65% effective and its KB is increased by 33%.  So it would actually be applying up to (8+4)*1.33=15.96 KB, and Weaken's 74.5% -KBstrength would be reduced to 74.5*0.65=48.425%, for a final KB of 15.96*0.51575=8.23137.

 

Clarion doesn't reapply instantly, there's a 2.112s dead time (power doesn't start recharging until the animation is complete, so even though the recharge time and duration are synchronous, it's still incapable of providing perfect coverage).  Melee Hybrid doesn't protect against KB at all.  So you're only actually benefiting from Rune and Clarion, and you're likely seeing shortfalls in coverage between the two due to animation time dead spaces.

[Onlyasandwich]

2 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

squeezing 2 extra slots

If you happen to be using Flight pool on a given build, Evasive Maneuvers is a good pick to save slots here, assuming you have any power flex or room to rejigger the build.

 

Evasive provides Knockback resistance, which is normally only available on melee AT KB protection powers. This will cut the mag of any KB roughly in half before your protection kicks in, meaning that 8 mag protection is roughly equivalent to 16 mag instead (48% resist).

 

As a bonus, it provides immob protection as well, which is handy if you don't use CJ on this character.

 

You may know this already of course! It's an easy to miss aspect of this power, however.

[Frosticus]

Here's a vid. I switched things around and have:

11 KB protection

 

Pylon knocks me back

 

I use weaken

 

Pylon knocks me back

 

w/ 14 pts kb protection pylon doesn't knock me ever.

 

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Luminara - Knockback magnitude reduction always seemed to be a number that functioned much like character resistances and defense totals and which wouldn't be subject to purple patch effects. But, thinking of it as a "debuff aimed at enemy actions, and therefore subject to the purple patch" makes good sense, on reflection. And, it makes what's been happening in-game easier to understand. Thank you. 

 

Frosticus - Thank you for clearly outlining the dividing line between "get knocked back" and "never get knocked back." It could have taken a fair amount of time spent testing to find that out otherwise. 

 

For me pylon testing on the beta server functions as one way of gauging whether builds are likely to be fun to play or not before spending a lot of influence and many hours on them. Doing that has greatly cut down on the number of characters that turned out to be unenjoyable to play after they were leveled to 50 and fully kitted out. 

It seems unnecessary to have 14 knockback reduction for general in-game adventuring. So, I'll just apply some kind of rough, estimated mark-up to estimated DPS to try to account for the time lost to knockback when gauging whether a character is ready to be played or not, instead of designing all characters with 14+ knockback reduction in mind. 

It's been over a year since I spent significant time doing pylon tests. It would seem that I forgot about all those knocks from that earlier time period. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Frosticus]

Ya for sure. I think a single kb IO is generally sufficient. You only need specific protections if you are doing specific things.

 

I built that poison/fire/psi to hunt AVs and GMs, so getting punted around by every psi AV with tk blast, and there are a lot of them ( mag 11 kb needed), wasn't an option for that build.

 

There are ways to counter high kb scenarios if you don't encounter them often - like taking a breakfree.

 

I posted the vid to demonstrate that weaken has no impact on kb.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

Ya for sure. I think a single kb IO is generally sufficient. You only need specific protections if you are doing specific things.

 

I built that poison/fire/psi to hunt AVs and GMs, so getting punted around by every psi AV with tk blast, and there are a lot of them ( mag 11 kb needed), wasn't an option for that build.

 

There are ways to counter high kb scenarios if you don't encounter them often - like taking a breakfree.

 

I posted the vid to demonstrate that weaken has no impact on kb.

After making my last post the thought occurred that perhaps weaken really does nothing and knockback protection does not get reduced by the purple patch. That could fully explain what I'm seeing. 

 

The purple patch affects debuffs that characters place on mobs. But, debuffs are delivered either by hitting mobs in order to apply the debuff or by an auto-hit power (usually an aura with a fixed area of effect, such as venomous gas). Knockback reduction (in percentage terms or in points reduced) doesn't seem to function as either an auto-hit aura with a fixed radius or as an "on hit" effect. So, perhaps the purple patch doesn't apply to knockback reduction. 

[Luminara]

20 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Knockback reduction (in percentage terms or in points reduced) doesn't seem to function as either an auto-hit aura with a fixed radius or as an "on hit" effect.

 

You're confusing KB Resistance and/or Protection with -KB Strength.  -KB strength uses different mechanics and equations than KB Resistance and Protection.  It does work, it is fully functional in Weaken and it is subject to the purple patch.

[Frosticus]

Purple patch affects nearly everything, but it is important to understand that it doesn't affect what you have, but rather what you do. Same as for npcs.

 

For example. In the vid I posted I have 11 kb protection. No matter what level enemy I face I retain 11 kb.

Look at a fake nem vs me at lvl 50+1

If a lvl 45 Fake nem hits me with staffbolt (he cons - 6 to me) it will do 9kb*0.15 = 1.35kb and I ignore it

If a lvl 54 Fake nem hits me with staffbolt (he cons +3 to me) it will do 9kb*1.33 = 11.97 and I'm knocked (down)

 

If I unslot my alpha it now cons +4 to me. It will do 9kb*1.44 = 12.96 and I'm knocked (back).

 

I'm pretty sure powers with -special stopped affecting knockback when it was removed from powerboost. Weaken is a reverse powerboost. 

If weaken is decreasing some aspect of knockback I'm not seeing it in either mag or distance.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Frosticus

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Wow, are we ever deep in the weeds about mechanics. I'll put a couple of thoughts below and see if they check out ...

 

Rikti pylons can do 12 knockback (40% chance). If the magnitude is increased by the purple patch then they have 1.11 * 12 = 13.2 knockback magnitude against -1 enemies.  

If -14 to knockback magnitude were subject to the purple patch then 0.9 * 14 = 12.6, which should lead to knockdown every time a character gets hit if a rikti pylon cons at +1 or higher to our characters. But, that's not what's happening in the video Frosticus provided. 

 

Am I getting the rikti pylon level relative to characters wrong? Are they considered even level for calculations, despite conning yellow?

[Frosticus]

Normal rikti pylons con even no matter what level you are. 

 

 

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

If -14 to knockback magnitude were subject to the purple patch

 

The purple patch doesn't apply to self-affecting powers.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

If pylons con even to characters then purple patch effects shouldn't matter because there are no adjustments to any numbers subject to the purple patch when enemies con at even level. Then -12 knock magnitude should be enough to avoid any knocks whatsoever. And yet, Frosticus has found that -14 is what is needed. 

 

I'm confused. What am I missing? 

[Frosticus]

I didn't say you need mag 14. I said I have mag 14 on that build for a variety of reasons.

A pylon does mag 12 knock. If you have mag 12 protection you should be fine.

 

All I demonstrated in that video is that mag 11 is not enough with or without weaken.

[Hedgefund]

If you're just looking for a way to do pylon testing w/o being knocked back get the base empowerment buff for kb protection, mag 10 for 90 minutes, that plus your normal 4 (or whatever) seemingly will keep you upright (based on info in this thread).

Edited September 2, 2023 by Hedgefund

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I went back and checked on my character's beta build and found a glaring problem that created confusion on my part.

 

I had several open IO slots from a respec, with one of those slots intended for blessing of the zephyr: knockback protection. I had been testing the character that way while believing those slots had been filled (not totally sure how I lost track of filling the slots with IOs, but it probably had to do with a 10 year old needing attention on a priority basis). Naturally, with many empty slots and only 8 knockback protection from IOs knockback was still occurring. 

 

Once the empty slots were all filled the "base" knock protection was set to -12 magnitude from IOs and T4 clarion destiny brought knockback mag reduction to an even higher level. There was no knockback or knockdown after the missing IOs were put into their respective slots and T4 clarion was put on "auto-activate."  

 

Returning to the dialogue about weaken, Frosticus seems to have been right all along; if knockback protection of -11 magnitude doesn't work with weaken being used then weaken probably doesn't reduce pylon knock magnitude in any way. A bit of math, assuming AV-level 85% resistance to debuffs and no purple patch effects because it seems that level-shifted characters shouldn't be lower level than a rikti pylon ...

 

"base" pylon knockback mag * ( 1 - ( weaken debuff  *  proportion of debuff applied after reduction from AV-level resistances of 85% ) ) = pylon knockback mag if affected by weaken

 

12 * ( 1 - (0.74 * 0.15) ) = 10.67

 

So, even if weaken is severely reduced in its effect by AV-level resistances to debuffs it seems that -11 to knockback magnitude would prevent knockback and knockdown. 

 

Did I completely or partially muck up the math on this? 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

1 hour ago, Hedgefund said:

If you're just looking for a way to do pylon testing w/o being knocked back get the base empowerment buff for kb protection, mag 10 for 90 minutes, that plus your normal 4 (or whatever) seemingly will keep you upright (based on info in this thread).

If it's possible to do this on the beta server then that would be quite helpful. Thank you either way, though. I've never bothered with base buffs, but it may be something to consider for the future. 

 

Knockback has been muddying up results from pylon test results on the beta server for quite a few character builds in the recent past. I know that pylon defeats are showing a lower level of single target damage than would happen in actual gameplay. But, it's not easy to figure out how much of an impact it's having on pylon test results, so making knocks completely go away would help quite a bit. 

[ZemX]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:05 PM, EnjoyTheJourney said:

If it's possible to do this on the beta server then that would be quite helpful. Thank you either way, though. I've never bothered with base buffs, but it may be something to consider for the future. 

 

There are a few that can be quite worthwhile.  A little extra Endurance Drain Resist when you're doing a Penny Yin.  The slow resist temp is something like 20% which is quite nice.  The resistances are all 5% which you absolutely wouldn't sneeze at if you were aiming for that in a set bonus.  And the aforementioned knock resist. 

 

I visit my base often to sell off excess IOs, common recipes, and common salvage.  I'll make a pass past the invention table, see if I can build any IO set recipes I've collected to flip and sell on the AH, then go to the empowerment station to load up whatever is available.  Then sell excess salvage.  Doesn't take but a minute.

 

And yeah, should be available on test.  Just build a quickie base, toss in some power/comp, and the top of the line empowerment station.  Done.