ToHit Debuff vs. high defense question...

[Story Archer]

I'm not 100% sure how ToHit works vs. accuracy & defense, I remember reading a breakdown on it a while back but it was nuanced enough that I don't remember it very clearly. The basic question is this:

 

If I have capped defenses, as I understand it, I don't get any additional benefit from MORE defense, apart from mitigating a degree of -Def debuffs... the people who were going to hit me 5% of the time still hit me 5% of the time whether my defense is 45% or 75%. But if I layer -ToHit on top of that, say with something like Darkest Night, then how often I get hit WILL be reduced, even if I'm capped on defense. Is that correct?

 

I'm asking because I'm weighing taking Darkest Night for a Super Reflexes tanker, but the question applies across the board for any toon looking at how to layer their defenses.

[FupDup]

The minimum hit chance will always be 5% no matter what. Having extra -tohit can help you either reach that 5% point with lower defenses and/or give you a buffer against def debuffs. But it ain't going below 5% ever. Tohit debuffs can be resisted by some enemies (like AVs) so keep that in mind here. 

 

For Darkest Night in particular, it does also apply a massive damage debuff to all enemies in the area so it can still help your survival even if your defenses are capped, as well as helping any squishy teammates you might have. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by FupDup

[Psyonico]

What FupDup said, Darkest Night is best used for its -damage on a SR tanker.

[Story Archer]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

What FupDup said, Darkest Night is best used for its -damage on a SR tanker.

 

Thanks for the responses. I'm trying to settle on Gloom/Darkest Night or Focused Accuracy/Physical Perfection with the usual procs.

[drbuzzard]

Now here's a question- does to hit debuff change the minimum to hit chances of bosses and the like? (usually above 5% when def capped)

[Akisan]

8 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Now here's a question- does to hit debuff change the minimum to hit chances of bosses and the like? (usually above 5% when def capped)

 

No.  A character's minimum to-hit is always 5% * Accuracy.  (5% for minions, 5.75% for leutenants, 6.5% for bosses, 7.5% for AVs at even level)

 

Chance to hit is clamped to 5% before accuracy bonuses are taken into account, so accuracy directly affects a character's minimum chance to hit.

[aethereal]

By the time that you're calculating a chance to hit, to-hit debuff (that has applied and is landed) and defense (that is applicable to this attack) are the same thing.  They're 1:1 interchangeable.

 

That is: of course whether they apply is very different.  To-hit debuffs have to be applies, and have to go through debuff resistance and so forth.  Defense has to be applicable.  But once you've got all that sorted out and the values exist on a given attack roll, they're the same thing.  Your enemy's base chance to hit + to hit buffs - to hit debuffs - defense is a value from 5-95 and it is then multiplied by accuracy.

 

So, long story short, if you've hit the softcap on defense to this particular attack, then to-hit debuffs do you no good at all.

 

A debuff that would be compatible with softcapped defense (ie, would offer further damage mitigation) would be an accuracy debuff.  But as far as I know, there are no accuracy debuff powers in the game.

Edited December 9, 2023 by aethereal

[Story Archer]

4 hours ago, Akisan said:

 

No.  A character's minimum to-hit is always 5% * Accuracy.  (5% for minions, 5.75% for leutenants, 6.5% for bosses, 7.5% for AVs at even level)

 

Chance to hit is clamped to 5% before accuracy bonuses are taken into account, so accuracy directly affects a character's minimum chance to hit.

 

Just to be certain I understand what you're saying...

 

1) an AV at even level, for example, has a 7.5% chance to hit no matter how high your defense is or what level of -ToHit they may have.

 

2) If they are NOT even level, their minimum chance to hit goes up or down based purely on level differential, but is still not affected by higher levels of defense to -ToHit... meaning that in a vacuum, a 42.5% defense provides the max benefit that you can get against any AV, regardless of what relative level they are to you and regardless of what their actual minimum chance to hit you is.

[Captain Fabulous]

19 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

 

Just to be certain I understand what you're saying...

 

1) an AV at even level, for example, has a 7.5% chance to hit no matter how high your defense is or what level of -ToHit they may have.

 

2) If they are NOT even level, their minimum chance to hit goes up or down based purely on level differential, but is still not affected by higher levels of defense to -ToHit... meaning that in a vacuum, a 42.5% defense provides the max benefit that you can get against any AV, regardless of what relative level they are to you and regardless of what their actual minimum chance to hit you is.

Correct and correct, providing said AVs do not have any tohit or accuracy buffs that will increase their chance to hit above the 7.5% base. This is why in hard mode TFs the softcap for defense is ~65%, because everything has a higher base % chance to hit as well as an additional tohit buff.

[Akisan]

13 hours ago, Story Archer said:

 

Just to be certain I understand what you're saying...

 

1) an AV at even level, for example, has a 7.5% chance to hit no matter how high your defense is or what level of -ToHit they may have.

 

2) If they are NOT even level, their minimum chance to hit goes up or down based purely on level differential, but is still not affected by higher levels of defense to -ToHit... meaning that in a vacuum, a 42.5% defense provides the max benefit that you can get against any AV, regardless of what relative level they are to you and regardless of what their actual minimum chance to hit you is.

 

Yes, and not quite.

 

An even-level AV has a 7.5% chance to hit you, provided that you have at least 45% in combined defense and applied tohit debuffs (42.5% defense gives them a 7.5% base tohit, for a total of 7.5%*1.5=11.25% actual chance to hit).  Enemies of a lower level than you suffer a tohit penalty, and so don't lose minimum to hit chance. Enemies that are +1 to +5 get 10% more accuracy per level (so a +2 AV would have a 7.5%*1.2=9% minimum chance to hit). Enemies that are more than 5 levels above you start getting 5% tohit bonuses in addition to a 1.5x accuracy bonus - so a +6 AV still only has an 11.25% minimum to hit chance, but requires you to have more than 45% defense to reach that floor (50% at +6, 55% at +7, etc., jumping sharply to 85% at +10 or higher)

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Akisan
Clarifying, fixing typos