Revert the Invasion minimum level change

[Erydanus]

After some confused discussion a bunch of us finally realized there's a patch note for i25 that states that events like Rikti Invasions and Zombie invasions will not spawn mobs for characters below level 25.

 

Like, WHAT? Why would you cut off people's lower level characters from content like that when they're in their own level-appropriate zones? This now explains why groups I got into to do zombie events in places like King's Row and Cap Au Diable were complete duds. (At other times we got SOME spawns - because higher level people joined). Even one time a big group gathered in Independence Port and we were disappointed at our spawns and now it's clear why - that party was composed of 20-30 players but it was only spawning based on the 25-30 players.

 

This seems like maybe something that was done on the private server because people just didn't want to deal with them but on live they should run normally. They're not so frequent they're disruptive and if people are low level and want to take 15 minutes out of their day and fight zombies they should be able to. Especially since there's a lot of people who focus on the low level content and keep rolling a lot of alts, those people can't have a rewarding and fun zombie attack experience. (Of course if you don't want to deal with these events if you just keep moving and go to your mission door you're mostly fine.)

[PaxArcana]

+1

[justicebeliever]

/Signed

[Venture]

Like, WHAT? Why would you cut off people's lower level characters from content like that when they're in their own level-appropriate zones? This now explains why groups I got into to do zombie events in places like King's Row and Cap Au Diable were complete duds. (At other times we got SOME spawns - because higher level people joined). Even one time a big group gathered in Independence Port and we were disappointed at our spawns and now it's clear why - that party was composed of 20-30 players but it was only spawning based on the 25-30 players.

 

While you may be in the correct level zones the Mobs that spawned were internally set to level 30 - so that's the lowest they'd scale to. Restricting them to only spawn if a player was 25 or above means that lowbies - on level for the zone,  don't get ganked as soon as they step into the zone.

 

If the team lead is above level 25 then everyone is SK'd above 25 and all will be targets for the spawn as normal. It's not ideal but works as a compromise.

 

Bear in mind that on live, during an invasion, all other mobs in a zone would disappear as well stopping any other street clearing missions from being completeable.

[SwitchFade]

I disagree, and must vote no.

 

Being lvl 10 in KR and suddenly getting killed by an event from a level 25 would be undesirable. Likewise, the effort necessary to change how the spawns work for level may create unintended consequences.

 

Further, zone wide events are supposed to be daunting, and lowbies should either be teaming with a more experienced mentor, or running for cover. This fits thematically with life, and source material. We would not expect super dog to fight foes that super boy would, he would team up with his mentor. We would not expect adolescents to bear unnecessary risk in times of emergency or catastrophy, but they may assist competent adults.

 

Currently, I must vote no change.

[Erydanus]

While you may be in the correct level zones the Mobs that spawned were internally set to level 30 - so that's the lowest they'd scale to.

That's NOT how it worked on live. The incoming and outgoing damage scaled properly to them from low level players even if they did have an internal level of 30. That's the same giant monster code you see on things like the Kraken in Perez Park. If invasions spawned only level 30 mobs and crushed level 5 players routinely there'd have been absolute hell raised about it when they launched and it did not. It would also mean things like the Deadly Apocalypse for Halloween couldn't have been done by newbies in Atlas Park. 

 

I went to lunch and am back with a couple additional thoughts:

 

1. mob scaling is not broken. On a low level character in King's Row, not teamed, I was able to fight event mobs without any problems. The issue is anemic spawns. Additionally Venture commented that invasions make zones tough to street sweep during them; that's still happening. The full invasion protocol including regular spawns getting sparse is happening. It's just that the event is a waste of time due to excluding 1-24 players from the invasion mechanic even in zones populated by characters primarily that level.

 

2. Responding to SwitchFade: You seem to wholly misunderstand the point of this comment. Events are not skipping low level zones. They are happening, and they are usually duds. The sky turns red, low level players gather and no zombies show up, everyone gets bored and leaves; if a few high level players are around a few zombies spawn. Venture's comment about the mobs being above your level and you needing to sidekick is completely wrong. These events spawn mobs that level scale to you even if they have an internal level that is higher. These events scale to your level, they always have, they are not "superboy mobs attacking superdog players". 

 

3. Additionally SwitchFade your comment: "Further, zone wide events are supposed to be daunting, and lowbies should either be teaming with a more experienced mentor, or running for cover. This fits thematically with life, and source material." To this I say: NO. Don't tell me how to play the game. This is your idea and not mine. If I'm level 8, in King's Row, and a zombie invasion happens, I should be able to stand there and fight some zombies if I want to, solo if I want to.

 

Additional information: events like Zombie Apocalypse use the same type of mechanics as Rikto Invasions: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Rikti_Invasion_Mechanics

Scaling against mobs works similarly to giant monsters though I vaguely recall it's slightly tweaked for mass invasion mobs, still, similar: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Giant_Monster

 

[SwitchFade]

While you may be in the correct level zones the Mobs that spawned were internally set to level 30 - so that's the lowest they'd scale to.

That's NOT how it worked on live. The incoming and outgoing damage scaled properly to them from low level players even if they did have an internal level of 30. That's the same giant monster code you see on things like the Kraken in Perez Park. If invasions spawned only level 30 mobs and crushed level 5 players routinely there'd have been absolute hell raised about it when they launched and it did not. It would also mean things like the Deadly Apocalypse for Halloween couldn't have been done by newbies in Atlas Park. 

 

I went to lunch and am back with a couple additional thoughts:

 

1. mob scaling is not broken. On a low level character in King's Row, not teamed, I was able to fight event mobs without any problems. The issue is anemic spawns. Additionally Venture commented that invasions make zones tough to street sweep during them; that's still happening. The full invasion protocol including regular spawns getting sparse is happening. It's just that the event is a waste of time due to excluding 1-24 players from the invasion mechanic even in zones populated by characters primarily that level.

 

2. Responding to SwitchFade: You seem to wholly misunderstand the point of this comment. Events are not skipping low level zones. They are happening, and they are usually duds. The sky turns red, low level players gather and no zombies show up, everyone gets bored and leaves; if a few high level players are around a few zombies spawn. Venture's comment about the mobs being above your level and you needing to sidekick is completely wrong. These events spawn mobs that level scale to you even if they have an internal level that is higher. These events scale to your level, they always have, they are not "superboy mobs attacking superdog players". 

 

3. Additionally SwitchFade your comment: "Further, zone wide events are supposed to be daunting, and lowbies should either be teaming with a more experienced mentor, or running for cover. This fits thematically with life, and source material." To this I say: NO. Don't tell me how to play the game. This is your idea and not mine. If I'm level 8, in King's Row, and a zombie invasion happens, I should be able to stand there and fight some zombies if I want to, solo if I want to.

 

Additional information: events like Zombie Apocalypse use the same type of mechanics as Rikto Invasions: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Rikti_Invasion_Mechanics

Scaling against mobs works similarly to giant monsters though I vaguely recall it's slightly tweaked for mass invasion mobs, still, similar: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Giant_Monster

 

Thank you for your opinion. I notice you have "wholly" misunderstood my post.

[justicebeliever]

 

Thank you for your opinion. I notice you have "wholly" misunderstood my post.

 

Don’t worry Switchfade, I often wholly misunderstand your posts.

 

Thanks for clarification Erydanus, that’s how I thought I remembered those events happening. 

[SwitchFade]

 

Thank you for your opinion. I notice you have "wholly" misunderstood my post.

 

Don’t worry Switchfade, I often wholly misunderstand your posts.

 

Thanks for clarification Erydanus, that’s how I thought I remembered those events happening.

 

Verily.

[Rumors]

+1

 

I have fond memories of chasing Rikti and Zombies during invasion events with lowbie characters.  The mobs also dropped higher level recipes and such, if memory serves right, so it was a good injection of early influence too.  Players who do not want to participate can either keep moving (mobs don't spawn if a player is moving too fast), stay up in the air, leave the zone, stand under cover (mobs won't spawn if you're under a bridge, overhang, or whathaveyou), or hang near the drones. 

 

Additionally, harder mob spawns require more eligible players to be present in an area.  The current rules will make it MUCH harder to get things like the Rikti Heavies, which are needed for the Elusive Mind accolade, to spawn. 

 

 

I'm really hoping for a Rikti Invasion Week to come along to fuel my nostalgia (I first started playing on Live during such a week), but it'll be very sad to see it neutered by excluding level 25 and below players from triggering spawns.

[Doctor Brainbottle]

I have fond memories of jumping into zone events from back in the old days. They were crazy, wild, and fun, in any zone at any level. The first time I heard a zone event was happening in Homecoming, I rushed over to the zone with my low-to-mid level character and.... it was a total dud. It sucked. Mobs weren't spawning, and the ONLY reactions I heard from other people was annoyance and disappointment. I've gone up level since, and I STILL haven't participated in any random zone events that didn't suck.

 

If this is the mechanical cause of the problem, no amount of quibbling over the technical details can convince me it was an "improvement". Zone events used to not suck. I would like them to go back to not sucking, please.

[justicebeliever]

If this is the mechanical cause of the problem, no amount of quibbling over the technical details can convince me it was an "improvement". Zone events used to not suck. I would like them to go back to not sucking, please.

 

QFT

[Legree]

+ 1

 

Being surprised by a Rikti invasion event in Kings Row during my original trial was the single most memorable moment I had in the game up to that point.  One minute I was fighting street thugs, the next the sky turned green, the sirens wailed and I found myself battling an alien invader who just teleported in from... Holy <BLEEP> There's an Alien Spaceship Up There!

 

Awesome.

 

Sure, with the scaling and being on a level 8 scrapper it took me several minutes and a full tray of inspirations to down one lieutenant, but it was still an amazing, exciting experience, and I hate that my new characters will have to be level 25+ before I can relive that moment.

 

Please revert the change.

[_NOPE_]

+1

 

Another possible idea... have some "lowbie" invasion events that are triggered based on lowbie task force/trial completion. Something like:

 

• Death From Below Trial - Hydras Spawn in Atlas Park in retaliation
  
• Cavern of Transcendence - Igneous invade Atlas Park and Skyway City
  
• Positron 1 - Circle of Thorns Demons and Spectres take over Steel Canyon
  
• Synapse - Clockwork overrun Skyway City
  

 

And so on, and so on... just an idea.

[justicebeliever]

+1

 

Another possible idea... have some "lowbie" invasion events that are triggered based on lowbie task force/trial completion. Something like:

 

• Death From Below Trial - Hydras Spawn in Atlas Park in retaliation
  
• Cavern of Transcendence - Igneous invade Atlas Park and Skyway City
  
• Positron 1 - Circle of Thorns Demons and Spectres take over Steel Canyon
  
• Synapse - Clockwork overrun Skyway City
  

 

And so on, and so on... just an idea.

 

I like it, especially the Cavern.  Be a great way to encourage people to run that trial.  You can’t do DFB because you would have Hydra’s in Atlas continuously.

[_NOPE_]

Maybe that'd be incentive NOT to do DFB?  ;D

[Legree]

I like it, especially the Cavern.  Be a great way to encourage people to run that trial.  You can’t do DFB because you would have Hydra’s in Atlas continuously.

 

If the change was reverted I'd be happy for Atlas Park and Mercy Island to remain invasion-free zones.  Aside from the level scaled mobs being disproportionately tough on very low level characters there's a lot of street-sweeping missions in both zones - especially since they were revamped - and the invasions would disrupt those a lot, if not make them impossible to complete.

 

Sure there are street-sweeping missions in Kings Row, Steel Canyon and so on as well, but I suspect the people running those at this point aren't going for optimal levelling efficiency and might enjoy an intermission of battling Rikti in between hunting Skuls.