The Sandbox, Progression and the Homecoming Experience

[FFFF]

So I've taken a break from Homecoming. My last login reflects that it's been 66 days since I've logged onto a Homecoming character. Mostly, I've been spending some time on other servers and experiencing firsthand the differences in implementation of an old MMO.

 

I think Homecoming succeeds greatly in what it attempts to do. It's probably the best sandbox experience among all the servers. Take a concept, figure out the power sets you want to play and then quickly level up what you imagine. Influence/infamy isn't an issue due to the Converter-based economy. And there's very little need to farm. Progression is fast with double xp boosts easily available. An experienced player can reach 50 within a day and be a fully T4 incarnate within a week. If this is the game play experience you seek, Homecoming does it pretty well. It even makes the journey to 50 a lot smoother since the market is abundant with trinkets to twink your character to your heart's content. This really hits a sweet spot as a nostalgia machine since you can enjoy the fun aspects of the game with very little of the struggle.

 

I contrast this with the experience on other servers. Thunderspy has the most radical departure and has largely stubbed out the market and to some extent the invention system from the game. It's focus is on the wide variety of costumes/customization and a story-based leveling process since you never outlevel your contacts. I will admit not worrying about kitting out my characters (the enhancements you buy never expire) is refreshing, but I did miss having a few goodies while leveling up. I'm actually surprised that Thunderspy isn't more popular. I think it unfortunately suffers from a low population which is a self-fulfilling prophecy - players go to high population areas more frequently, keeping low population servers low.

 

Rebirth has tried to keep things truer to what the original live devs intended. There's a market, but it's bleak and the supply of IOs and recipes are scarce/non-existent until your character is largely finished with leveling to 50. There is no twinking in Rebirth, and generally, you are leveling up with SOs, generic IOs and any self-found recipes you get from drops. I found the lack of influence rather annoying and ran out a couple of times as I leveled up my first 50. The self-fund mechanism most commonly used in Rebirth is farming AE tickets to purchase rare salvage, which typically sells for 2M influence apiece.

 

Rebirth offers more challenge for a solo player but it's mostly due to scarcity. Due to market scarcity (and maybe influence if self-funding), the vast majority of the sub-level 50 characters you encounter use SOs or generic IOs; you will rarely see a set bonus. I thought the net effect of this would be to make content harder. However, that didn't turn out to be true at all. Experienced players with a lot in-game knowledge trivialize any of the old content. Every low level TF I joined was a cake walk (really no different from Homecoming) and the weekly Incarnate Trials they host while tougher were done quickly, typically back-to-back.

 

So what did I take away from all of this? I didn't enjoy the older style of progression offered by Rebirth. I think the brokenness of the low level market has an outsized, negative effect on the leveling experience there. Given that I leveled up multiple characters to 50 both live and on private servers, I didn't have the expected sense of accomplishment that I thought I would have with my first 50 on Rebirth. Mostly, I came away with the feeling that Rebirth could use some changes. I think the solution offered by Thunderspy works a lot better on a low population server.

 

I also came away with the conclusion that IOs and even incarnate powers are not the root of why the current game seems so easy. I think for veteran players, the game offers little in the way of surprises, and honestly an inadequate level of challenge. COH when live wasn't a hard game, but content was new and there was a larger range of experience among the player base. The lack of challenge works well in the context of a sandbox, but I think if falls short if someone is looking for challenge progression that they'd find in other MMOs or even RPGs.

 

Oh, one note. The COH communities on Thunderspy and Rebirth were just like what you'd expect - positive and helpful. I asked a lot of questions on General chat on both servers and the responses were overwhelmingly positive. There is something to be said about people who play a superhero MMO in general - that seems to carry over to their general helpfulness in game.

 

[MoonSheep]

hey, this was a really interesting read - thanks for taking the time to make the post. i think a lot of us - including me, can get lost in the HC echo chamber and assume the way things currently are is the only way to play CoH

 

6 hours ago, FFFF said:

An experienced player can reach 50 within a day and be a fully T4 incarnate within a week.

 

this does cause me some frustration at times. i often find you can play with a lvl 50 who has no real idea on how to play the character they've logged into - they PL to 50, get a defensive build from the forum and play every alt, including doms/controllers/support ATs as a scrapper. this is often disappointing when teaming as you think you're getting a kin or a great thermal defender who was going to stack shields between missions etc.. when really you someone who should have stuck to being a scrapper and doesn't know to click any of their primary set powers. on live, slower progression generally meant a lvl 50 knew what they were doing

 

this relates to the part i've quoted below about IOs - the prevelance of them has help to break archetypes. on the server where IOS were rare, was there more team cooperation to achieve objectives?

 

Quote

 Due to market scarcity (and maybe influence if self-funding), the vast majority of the sub-level 50 characters you encounter use SOs or generic IOs

 

personally i think this is what an MMO is meant to be about. i only play two alts and invest in those alts, though i recognise my playstyle is a minority in the era of people having 50+ alts. i have always believed in having a "main" which receives the primary benefit of IOs etc. i think this plays into the concept of an MMO also, investing time in your main to make it the best it can be

 

Quote

I think for veteran players, the game offers little in the way of surprises, and honestly an inadequate level of challenge

 

i have been discussing on the forums for a while on whether IOs broke CoH and led to the game being too easy, but i think this also comes into player ability. when i first started playing CoH it felt more challenging as i expect i was rather awful at playing it. when you know how the various mechanics work, even without IOs it becomes a lot easier - though a fully IOd out build will help a lot.

 

the lack of IOs and readily available enhancements creates a stronger desire for support ATs, which is where i primarily spend my time. i yearn to be useful!

Edited January 3 by MoonSheep

[Kaika]

7 hours ago, FFFF said:

I also came away with the conclusion that IOs and even incarnate powers are not the root of why the current game seems so easy. I think for veteran players, the game offers little in the way of surprises, and honestly an inadequate level of challenge. COH when live wasn't a hard game, but content was new and there was a larger range of experience among the player base. The lack of challenge works well in the context of a sandbox, but I think if falls short if someone is looking for challenge progression that they'd find in other MMOs or even RPGs.

Thank you.

 

I've been telling this to people for a while now, with so many people lamenting "how easy" the game has become these days, and while I'm not gonna deny the game has become easier in many aspects, it was NEVER hard. As someone who has played since release in 2004, I can assure you that CoH has always been a very easy game, its a big part of the reason why it was successful. While IOs and incarnate certainly make us more powerful, all of these things pale in comparison to how much more experience and knowledge about the game people have these days, a large portion of this player-base has been playing this game for years. They know all the systems inside and out, they know how to handle specific encounters and how to take them on without issue. To add to that most players are very open to teaching newer players the ropes and provide them with all the resources they need to succeed, Knowledge leads to more knowledge. Information moves so quickly these days, MUCH faster then it did back when the game was live, you release content, the very next day there are comprehensive guides on how to do any aspect of it. For comparison, the OG devs didn't mark stores on the map, because they wanted them to be a secret, that only a hand full of players would find, they were surprised when players quickly shared all this information and it became common knowledge. The game may be easier in some ways for sure, but the player base, as a whole, is just WAAAAAY more knowledgeable about all aspects of the game. Much of the stuff that people are complaining about now has been possible since 2007 when IOs dropped, it's just easier to access. CoH hasn't gotten all that easier, everyone has just gotten better at it.

[tidge]

One of the things I like about the Homecoming experience is that I find it to be pretty symmetrical across ATs. Not all ATs can approach all content the same way, but generally all ATs can experience and conquer all the same content.

[FFFF]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

hey, this was a really interesting read - thanks for taking the time to make the post. i think a lot of us - including me, can get lost in the HC echo chamber and assume the way things currently are is the only way to play CoH

 

 

this does cause me some frustration at times. i often find you can play with a lvl 50 who has no real idea on how to play the character they've logged into - they PL to 50, get a defensive build from the forum and play every alt, including doms/controllers/support ATs as a scrapper. this is often disappointing when teaming as you think you're getting a kin or a great thermal defender who was going to stack shields between missions etc.. when really you someone who should have stuck to being a scrapper and doesn't know to click any of their primary set powers. on live, slower progression generally meant a lvl 50 knew what they were doing

 

this relates to the part i've quoted below about IOs - the prevelance of them has help to break archetypes. on the server where IOS were rare, was there more team cooperation to achieve objectives?

 

 

personally i think this is what an MMO is meant to be about. i only play two alts and invest in those alts, though i recognise my playstyle is a minority in the era of people having 50+ alts. i have always believed in having a "main" which receives the primary benefit of IOs etc. i think this plays into the concept of an MMO also, investing time in your main to make it the best it can be

 

 

i have been discussing on the forums for a while on whether IOs broke CoH and led to the game being too easy, but i think this also comes into player ability. when i first started playing CoH it felt more challenging as i expect i was rather awful at playing it. when you know how the various mechanics work, even without IOs it becomes a lot easier - though a fully IOd out build will help a lot.

 

the lack of IOs and readily available enhancements creates a stronger desire for support ATs, which is where i primarily spend my time. i yearn to be useful!

 

There is farming and PL'ing on Rebirth as well. There's even some on Thunderspy though I haven't personally experienced it. However, on Rebirth it's harder. AE spits out influence and tickets, so a new player would have to do some conversions. So unfortunately, you wouldn't be fully able to escaped the PL'ed noob over on other servers as well too.

 

Most of the TFs and teaming I did on Rebirth were done with characters without any set bonuses, so generic IOs or SOs. The most commonly played ATs on Rebirth are Corruptors, Scrappers, Brutes and MMs. I'd say Dominators, Controllers and Tanks were rare. I mained a Tank. Some of the teams were optimal (tank, damage, buff/debuff) and some were honestly not (me as a tank, and a mixture of damage). I didn't see much difference in team performance. Both types of teams pretty much rolled through the content.

[Yomo Kimyata]

10 hours ago, FFFF said:

So I've taken a break from Homecoming. My last login reflects that it's been 66 days since I've logged onto a Homecoming character. Mostly, I've been spending some time on other servers and experiencing firsthand the differences in implementation of an old MMO.

 

Thanks for doing this, and more importantly, thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[Riverdusk]

9 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

 

 

personally i think this is what an MMO is meant to be about. i only play two alts and invest in those alts, though i recognise my playstyle is a minority in the era of people having 50+ alts. i have always believed in having a "main" which receives the primary benefit of IOs etc. i think this plays into the concept of an MMO also, investing time in your main to make it the best it can be

 

 

 

 

And yet I don't think it is what CoH was ever about (and am happy for it). I remember even the first years on live having a ton of alts.   IMO, CoH has always been more about the journey and less about 'end game' than any other MMO I've every played, especially back during live.  And that is a big reason why I stuck around.   

 

As to the game being too easy, my biggest pet peeve isn't IO's, it's nukes.  Removing the crash was good, lowering the recharge on them so much I think was a mistake.  Too late now of course.   Incarnate nukes also I think are too much.  Insult on top is that controller/dom's aoe holds are still stuck at 4 minute base recharge.    

 

 

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

As to the game being too easy, my biggest pet peeve isn't IO's, it's nukes.  Removing the crash was good, lowering the recharge on them so much I think was a mistake.  Too late now of course.   Incarnate nukes also I think are too much.  Insult on top is that controller/dom's aoe holds are still stuck at 4 minute base recharge.   

I do agree with the nuke thing, unfortunately like you said, too late on that. At 50 I think what people really underestimate is the Alpha level shift, which basically removes the highest level of difficulty in most content from the game. From my experience there is a fairly significant jump in difficulty from +3 to +4, particularly in enemy survivability, that no longer exist for anyone with the alpha slot above t3. It's effectively the point where the game starts to punish you for going after enemies much higher level then you. While it's certainly not the only reason why players are more powerful these days, I think its a nice low hanging fruit that could be adjusted, as it could be regulated to Incarnate content only like the other level shifts, without really effecting player builds.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Riot Siren said:

I do agree with the nuke thing, unfortunately like you said, too late on that. At 50 I think what people really underestimate is the Alpha level shift, which basically removes the highest level of difficulty in most content from the game. From my experience there is a fairly significant jump in difficulty from +3 to +4, particularly in enemy survivability, that no longer exist for anyone with the alpha slot above t3. It's effectively the point where the game starts to punish you for going after enemies much higher level then you. While it's certainly not the only reason why players are more powerful these days, I think its a nice low hanging fruit that could be adjusted, as it could be regulated to Incarnate content only like the other level shifts, without really effecting player builds.

 

Agreed.  Only characters I have that'd really miss it are my masterminds.  In level 54 content without that level shift the tier 1 pets are fighting +6's, which means they are basically worthless.   Other than that, really not needed.

[FFFF]

2 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

I do agree with the nuke thing, unfortunately like you said, too late on that. At 50 I think what people really underestimate is the Alpha level shift, which basically removes the highest level of difficulty in most content from the game. From my experience there is a fairly significant jump in difficulty from +3 to +4, particularly in enemy survivability, that no longer exist for anyone with the alpha slot above t3. It's effectively the point where the game starts to punish you for going after enemies much higher level then you. While it's certainly not the only reason why players are more powerful these days, I think its a nice low hanging fruit that could be adjusted, as it could be regulated to Incarnate content only like the other level shifts, without really effecting player builds.

 

One thing that Rebirth does that may be of interest is that they time gate the acquisition of Incarnate abilities. Heather Townsend and all the other Dark Astoria based contacts are on a 24-hour timer for rewards. The fastest way you can get Incarnate powers is doing the iTrials that are hosted by the Rebirth community once a week. I farmed with my level 50 tank for 2-3 weeks and I have a full T4 Alpha, T1 in Interface and a T1 in Judgment; I also have Lore and Destiny 50% unlocked. Generally, if you are playing solo, it will take you a lot of time to unlock Incarnate powers on Rebirth.

 

Now with that said, Rebirth is a mature community so you have players with T4 in every Incarnate power, but these are characters that have been around for years. What you do notice is that there are a fair amount of level 50s without any Incarnate powers at all or those with just their Alpha unlocked.

 

I'm not suggesting that they implement this sort of thing in Homecoming, but it does strike me as a way to limit Incarnate powers from a freshly PL'ed level 50.

Edited January 3 by FFFF

[tidge]

Of the Homecoming characters I brought to level 50 in 2023, I don't think I bothered to get any of them to have a T3 in each incarnate power. I almost always slot Alpha (for level shift, plus it is essentially a gate to some popular content) but my general attitude is still colored by Live... I don't mind that Homecoming makes Incarnate content straightforward (and easy, if that's your thing) but since so much of the game doesn't need Incarnates I often just don't seek it out.

 

A casual observation during the Winter event: I'd frequently witness teams popping Lore pets to take on Winter Lords in Atlas Park. The Lore pets certainly speed up the defeats, yet in every circumstance it was completely unnecessary. I'd understand summoning them for trying the same thing when solo, but the scaled GMs in AP are pretty straightforward to handle by even small teams that can muster attack chains.

[golstat2003]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:37 PM, FFFF said:

 

One thing that Rebirth does that may be of interest is that they time gate the acquisition of Incarnate abilities. Heather Townsend and all the other Dark Astoria based contacts are on a 24-hour timer for rewards. The fastest way you can get Incarnate powers is doing the iTrials that are hosted by the Rebirth community once a week. I farmed with my level 50 tank for 2-3 weeks and I have a full T4 Alpha, T1 in Interface and a T1 in Judgment; I also have Lore and Destiny 50% unlocked. Generally, if you are playing solo, it will take you a lot of time to unlock Incarnate powers on Rebirth.

 

Now with that said, Rebirth is a mature community so you have players with T4 in every Incarnate power, but these are characters that have been around for years. What you do notice is that there are a fair amount of level 50s without any Incarnate powers at all or those with just their Alpha unlocked.

 

I'm not suggesting that they implement this sort of thing in Homecoming, but it does strike me as a way to limit Incarnate powers from a freshly PL'ed level 50.

 

And this sounds incredibly slow to me. Hosting incarnate content once a week also makes it appointment content. I stopped playing many mmos because of “scheduled raid time”. So sounds like Rebirth definetly isn’t for me.

[Water]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

... “scheduled raid time”. 

 

This kind of thing doesn't work me either - 'I'm a fly by the seat' player - love P.U.G.s and it works well on HC Excelsior because of the population. To be constricted by or bound to the clock is not appealing. But there are plenty of players who manage their whole lives by the minute hand and I expect that works great on Rebirth for those players.

 

[Lionors]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:37 PM, FFFF said:

 

One thing that Rebirth does that may be of interest is that they time gate the acquisition of Incarnate abilities. Heather Townsend and all the other Dark Astoria based contacts are on a 24-hour timer for rewards. The fastest way you can get Incarnate powers is doing the iTrials that are hosted by the Rebirth community once a week. I farmed with my level 50 tank for 2-3 weeks and I have a full T4 Alpha, T1 in Interface and a T1 in Judgment; I also have Lore and Destiny 50% unlocked. Generally, if you are playing solo, it will take you a lot of time to unlock Incarnate powers on Rebirth.

 

Now with that said, Rebirth is a mature community so you have players with T4 in every Incarnate power, but these are characters that have been around for years. What you do notice is that there are a fair amount of level 50s without any Incarnate powers at all or those with just their Alpha unlocked.

 

I'm not suggesting that they implement this sort of thing in Homecoming, but it does strike me as a way to limit Incarnate powers from a freshly PL'ed level 50.

 

Late to the party here, but I appreciate your pointing that out.  I, for one, absolutely abhor having enforced cooldown times.  I also absolutely abhor being forced to do trials.  I'll do them occasionally, but I really, really hate raids as a rule and can't take doing them often.  I really don't want to be FORCED to do them because I can't do anything on my own, or better still, paired with my husband and a few friends.  We have time to chat, take breaks if we want, and otherwise, just enjoy the journey.  

I noticed on a recent Reddit thread that the Reunion folks were touting their scheduled iTrials and such, but the problem is, not everyone is on the same time schedule.  Due to family and job constraints, it's not always going to be possible for me to participate in a regularly scheduled raid.  That's why I find something like the 24 hour cooldown infuriating. I don't have time every 24 hours to play, but I might have several hours in *one* day to play, and I'd like to take the most advantage of it.  Instead, my progress would be achingly slow to the point of frustration -- and I'm someone who took almost a year and a half to level her first character to 50 on Live, so that's saying something.   MMOs should be flexible, so you can play when you're able to play, and not be penalized because your schedule isn't on the usual American 9 to 5.   HC has done this beautifully.

 

I deeply appreciate HC's flexibility in that regard.  I have times late at night that I have to be up for family reasons, and it's great to know I can solo a little AND make progress,.  I don't have to worry about a job call pulling me away during a raid time, so I end up missing out on salvage, and I don't have artificial limits shoved upon me.  HC's a lot more casual friendly.  This is good.

 

Edit:  Just had a chat with my husband aka fellow player of CoH since beta, and one more thing came to mind.  If there was one thing that truly frustrated us both on Live, it was the lack of money and how hard it was to get salvage to make anything.  How can you play with a system when you can't afford to buy multiple 40K Luck Charms?  The description of Reunion's market just gave me negative cold chills of memory.  I've very much enjoyed what HC's done with the market.  It's not hard to make money, but for casual gamers like us, it means we're not continually scraping or playing underpowered characters when we're on teams.  We can afford to play around with IO combos we might not have done otherwise and really explore different builds, and that's not something we were EVER able to do on Live.  

Not trying to knock Reunion here, but a lot of what they seem to be touting were the things that caused the most frustration for me on Live.  I saw someone on a Reddit thread praising Reunion for forcing people to unlock costume options, and that's another thing I don't get, either.  You always end up with the people who have the leisure to play all the time with all the good things, lording it over the have-nots.  No, thanks.  Negative nostalgia moment for me there.

Thank you again for the terrific (and very nicely unbiased) summation!  It's very much appreciated.

Edited February 17 by Lionors

[Jimpy2]

I had a toon in the live days, a fire/willpower tank, that couldn’t be killed by a Giant Monster. I couldn’t kill the GM either . This was due, to a large part, by enhancement sets.  I was in a group fighting Jack in Irons in Talos one Halloween. I put the tank on auto-taunt, I logged on my second account, got my gravity/kenetics controller and we had and with the other toons, we had enough buffs/debuffs to get the job done. The funny thing is, the regular monsters in Peregrine could kill her.  Anyway, although I don’t think one toon should be able to stand up to a GM and not be killed, it was fun and sometimes useful, skill. Nowadays, I have 4 accounts and every one has at least one toon that can do it. One of them is a bio brute. 
 

Once you’ve played a game long enough, you have to find your own new goals. I still play Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 because it’s better than any amusement park game since. But I have to set my own goals now. I built an entirety underground chairlift once. This led me to my current project, an entirely underground park. Why, because I can.

 

It’s kind of like that in Homecoming. My current plan revolves around the fact that I have many tanks and brutes and at least one scrapper and sentinel who can solo +4x8 radios and tip missions at level 50. Can I get any other archetype to do it? I’ve got an arachnos spider and a warshade who are close. It’s what keeps me in the  game for now. It may bother some people that I’m decked out in all sets and generic IOs, but rest assured, almost every toon I have leveled up by content to at least 35 and I have a good idea what they can and can’t do. So if you see a mini mode arachnos jumping spider or blazingly pink warshade it’s probably me. But if I’m doing something that strikes you as crazy, just remember, the only way to find out what is possible is to go beyond it into the impossible.

 

Jimpy

A snappy message should appear here 

[nzer]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:37 PM, FFFF said:

One thing that Rebirth does that may be of interest is that they time gate the acquisition of Incarnate abilities. Heather Townsend and all the other Dark Astoria based contacts are on a 24-hour timer for rewards. The fastest way you can get Incarnate powers is doing the iTrials that are hosted by the Rebirth community once a week.

 

I really respect what Rebirth is trying to do, but this and the generally terrible market conditions all but ensure I will never play there. The converter-based economy Homecoming uses is, in my opinion, a stroke of genius, and it's incredibly refreshing to play an MMO where proper min-maxed character builds can be assembled with a reasonable amount of effort.

 

As far as the game being easy, I honestly don't know that anything can really be done about that. The game's balance is just all over the place. On a micro level I think things are quite well tuned, but teams can vary so wildly in their capabilities that it's just impossible to design content that is appropriately challenging for all groups. So instead you end up with content being balanced not against players, but against other content, and players having free rein to adjust the difficulty however they want. The problem with this is that the vast majority of players are not going to turn the difficulty settings up to the point where the content actually becomes difficult. Rather, they're going to turn it up to just before the point that the content is no longer easy. Which leads to the general perception that the entire game is too easy.

 

There are other problems too, of course. +4 is often not actually hard enough, even though it's the highest setting for most content. And the way exemplaring works allows for huge imbalances between on-level characters and exemplared characters. As well as powersets just generally over- or under-performing depending on the level range.

 

I'm not sure what the point of this rambling is. I guess it's me wanting the game to be harder, but lamenting that there's probably not a good way to actually do that.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:32 PM, FFFF said:

I also came away with the conclusion that IOs and even incarnate powers are not the root of why the current game seems so easy.

Remember the price of purples on Live though?  Remember how much the Miracle unique was?  You really had to work at getting your hands on those on Live.  Now those, and more, are de rigueur for so many posted builds.   I'll agree that knowing everything about the game does help, and that it was never super hard (I usually played with only half-slotted toons because I was a filthy casual poor, but still did just fine), but this is definitely a change from Live and I do think has trivialized things even more.

[Rimerat]

Am I the only person that doesn't have a problem understanding how my character's abilities work if I speed to 50?

 

I'd like to think I'm not based on how many people do it, but I hear the "you must slowly level from 1-50 or you won't understand what you're doing" concept so much. Maybe on your first character, but the game really isn't *that* deep.

 

Making a set bonus build is another beast, sure. But just playing the game? Don't think so.

 

I also don't entirely agree that the entire game is easy. There's challenging content, you just have to seek it out. There's a reason few people do 4* ITF right now and it's not entirely because of the rewards.

[MoonSheep]

5 hours ago, nzer said:

There are other problems too, of course. +4 is often not actually hard enough, even though it's the highest setting for most content. And the way exemplaring works allows for huge imbalances between on-level characters and exemplared characters. As well as powersets just generally over- or under-performing depending on the level range.

 

assemble a PuG for a +4 TF, click “enemies buffed” without telling them

 

enjoy 

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

 

assemble a PuG for a +4 TF, click “enemies buffed” without telling them

 

enjoy 

Best done

On a Posi 1

...

Clones will be interesting

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Wiseguy said:

Am I the only person that doesn't have a problem understanding how my character's abilities work if I speed to 50?

 

I'd like to think I'm not based on how many people do it, but I hear the "you must slowly level from 1-50 or you won't understand what you're doing" concept so much. Maybe on your first character, but the game really isn't *that* deep.

 

Maybe you are the only one, maybe you aren't!  What follows are some of generalities based on my own head-space...

 

Hear are a few of the things that make me question any belief in a level 50's player's deep understanding of the game.

 

Every build contains Hasten, and sometimes it is taken as early as level 4. With enhancement bonuses, and slotting for /Recharge... few builds need Hasten, and taking it as the first power pool pick is probably not a good idea for a lot of content. If the character is only being played at 50+, of course it doesn't matter... it's just that mandatory Hasten is one of things (like 6-slotting Stamina) that feels to me (points at self) like a leftover mode of thinking from a completely different era of game.

 

LFG PUG posts with requesting specific ATs (or "DPS"). This is always feels to me as if the person making the request doesn't understand the game (from any era). Even back in the antediluvian times, debuffing enemies and buffing allies got short shrift. We now are in an era of the game when Controllers can help as much to clear times through damage as other ATs.

 

"Solos" that repeatedly faceplant during low level PUG content (and don't self-rez).  I admit I like to push the limits of my characters, especially in low-level content, but I feel like I know how my character plays across all levels because I've often played it through those levels. It also helps to build empathy for players who aren't exemplared.

 

"Pass me the star, I'm level 50 (to a level 47 teammate)" Ok... maybe this is the sign of something other than not having "played the character up", but this always feels to me like someone who doesn't appreciate the difference between a level 47 build and a level 50 build.

[Rimerat]

40 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Hear are a few of the things that make me question any belief in a level 50's player's deep understanding of the game.

 

Every build contains Hasten, and sometimes it is taken as early as level 4. 

 

LFG PUG posts with requesting specific ATs (or "DPS").

 

"Solos" that repeatedly faceplant during low level PUG content (and don't self-rez). 

 

"Pass me the star, I'm level 50 (to a level 47 teammate)"

 

Hasten: Hasten isn't needed, especially at such early levels. Yet every AT/poweset combo ends up having at least one signature or powerful ability on a long cooldown (depending on your build) which is bolstered greatly by having Hasten. I could list them all, but the point is that it always helps. It's just less helpful in some builds and more helpful in others. This is generally why most builds take Hasten, especially since a lot of [my] builds end up being slot starved rather than power starved. I'm not sure if this is a problem with someone's understanding of the game more than it is a problem with you being comfortable with builds and people's build choices.

 

I mean, by that logic, you don't really need to take a lot of powers. If you make a build with a fluid attack chain and lack a big-output long-cd ability, then of course; hasten would be less impactful.

 

My favorite thing about this game is that a hundred people could design a hundred builds for the same powersets and few would be identical.

 

LFG for specific roles: I don't see a problem with this, personally. Yes, I theoretically could do any content in the game with 8 blasters, but that doesn't mean I want to. It's objectively a fact that team compositions make playing certain ways or doing certain content smoother. I don't really do this often myself, unless I'm hosting a Lady Grey and need a Hold. I understand that things are possible, but I don't agree at all with the concept of trying to force-feed players the idea that balanced or diverse team compositions are bad.

 

City of Heroes is a very unique MMO in numerous ways, it's fascinating that we can have a team of 8 'supports' clear literally any content in the game and we have such diverse playstyle possibilities. Let's not get on others cases for having their own playstyle preferences, just because something is possible in our eyes.

 

"Solos" dying: Some people don't like dying repeatedly. It can be demoralizing. I don't always fault them, but a lot of people that play this game have a "solo" mentality, they just also have the enhancements and knowledge to let them survive.

 

Level 50 must lead the team: Seems like a minor misunderstanding of one of the game's many more nuanced mechanics.

 

 

 

 

[FFFF]

52 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Maybe you are the only one, maybe you aren't!  What follows are some of generalities based on my own head-space...

 

Hear are a few of the things that make me question any belief in a level 50's player's deep understanding of the game.

 

Every build contains Hasten, and sometimes it is taken as early as level 4. With enhancement bonuses, and slotting for /Recharge... few builds need Hasten, and taking it as the first power pool pick is probably not a good idea for a lot of content. If the character is only being played at 50+, of course it doesn't matter... it's just that mandatory Hasten is one of things (like 6-slotting Stamina) that feels to me (points at self) like a leftover mode of thinking from a completely different era of game.

 

LFG PUG posts with requesting specific ATs (or "DPS"). This is always feels to me as if the person making the request doesn't understand the game (from any era). Even back in the antediluvian times, debuffing enemies and buffing allies got short shrift. We now are in an era of the game when Controllers can help as much to clear times through damage as other ATs.

 

"Solos" that repeatedly faceplant during low level PUG content (and don't self-rez).  I admit I like to push the limits of my characters, especially in low-level content, but I feel like I know how my character plays across all levels because I've often played it through those levels. It also helps to build empathy for players who aren't exemplared.

 

"Pass me the star, I'm level 50 (to a level 47 teammate)" Ok... maybe this is the sign of something other than not having "played the character up", but this always feels to me like someone who doesn't appreciate the difference between a level 47 build and a level 50 build.

 

I don't think it's a far stretch to say that a veteran player who picks up a freshly PL'ed 50 won't be at least reasonably competent with it. Most folks have been playing for years, so I'm assuming a lot of muscle memory and transference of experience.

 

With that said, I think many of us have encountered players who have never ventured outside much from fire farms. I organized a Position 2 recently and someone brought in their farmer tank (Fire/Rad). Haha, that was the worst character I've ever seen in a TF. Exempted down to level 15, with level 20 powers available, the tank had one attack plus build up. Also, no travel powers (nor temp travel powers). He did have Blazing Aura, but no taunt. Basically, his role became wading in and soaking up damage and hitting Healing Flames. I think the player was shocked how bad his character was in actual content. Kept telling us "I'm not usually this bad." We finished the TF successfully. There was some helpful advice from other TF members about how the order you take powers may matter and if he considered a secondary build. No one was overtly mean or condescending, but I think there were some smirks had behind the screen.

[tidge]

34 minutes ago, FFFF said:

 

I don't think it's a far stretch to say that a veteran player who picks up a freshly PL'ed 50 won't be at least reasonably competent with it. Most folks have been playing for years, so I'm assuming a lot of muscle memory and transference of experience.

 

I can totally get behind this. Writing only for myself, about myself:

 

1) I used to always reach for Hasten, and then I tried NOT using it, and I found very little actual difference in when powers were available for use... and when I wanted to use them. If the character has a 90 second heavy-hitting power... Hasten might (on my typical builds) have it ready as much as a couple seconds sooner. Mileage varies, but those 2 seconds could be used for something like chatting with teammates (or whatever). I found that once I was relying on Hasten, I'd then start down the path of chasing Slow resistance and/or perma-Hasten, neither of which are really teaching me what I can do with my primary/secondary powers! I am not anti-Hasten! Every once in a while I find a build with a much longer (5 min+) recharge timer on a power I want, and Hasten helps for sure. I try to delay the choice of Hasten until just before I pick up such powers.

 

2) I use leveling up to challenge my own notions of how powers "should" work... sometimes I am disappointed, sometimes I am surprised. Sometimes I keep powers by change my slotting instincts. One type of power that I sometimes find great and other times disappointing are Stuns. I never know until I play with them which category they will fall into! One power that I struggle to make work is the Poison Controller's Venomous Gas. On paper, it looks to be good... but as near as I can tell it requires some very specific build/play choices that I have not mastered... I'm on my second Poison Controller just to try to unlock its secrets! My first character that tried it gave it up and never looked back, but I want to see if I can make it work... and for that I feel I need play time with it across all levels.

 

One character that was a nightmare to level was a War Mace Scrapper. With level 50 slotting, it plays perfectly fine across all content.... but if I had stopped using it before 50, I would have a completely different opinion of that set. If I had PLed it to 50, I would have a much narrower opinion of how to make that set work during play... I might even recommend Hasten for it while leveling!