Replace Speed power "Flurry" with super speed combat teleport type power?

[PancakeGnome]

Speed was one of the first powerpools.... and now aday, it is really showing its age. Flurry especially, a 3.07 second execute time power?? Light damage?? Single target?!?! And in SUPER SPEED power pool of all things!!

Instead, what if superspeed was given a dash punch type ability? Functions similar to the combat teleport, and has a small area effect punch when you get to where you are going, and maybe a small damage boost (instead of accuracy increase?). 

I think this would really help super speed to feel more like superspeed..... 

[Rudra]

No.

 

What is more iconic for a melee super speedster than hitting your foe with a lightning fast barrage of punches?!

[PancakeGnome]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No.

 

What is more iconic for a melee super speedster than hitting your foe with a lightning fast barrage of punches?!

Sure, thematically... but mechanically the power is way behind (and then a copy of it that is better is available to everyone at lvl 1 for free....). 

Maybe boost the power then? Make it do the damage in an area or something?

But currently I would guess the rate of anyone taking the power outside of RP reasons is basically 0. 

[Rudra]

37 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

Sure, thematically... but mechanically the power is way behind (and then a copy of it that is better is available to everyone at lvl 1 for free....). 

Maybe boost the power then? Make it do the damage in an area or something?

But currently I would guess the rate of anyone taking the power outside of RP reasons is basically 0. 

The power you are citing is Sands of Mu and is the prestige power version of it. The prestige powers don't play by the same rules as the power pools because you weren't able to get them until you had played the game for enough years. HC did away with that. As for Flurry mechanically being way behind? It is a power pool attack. It is intentionally set up to not be as good as the primary or secondary powers characters get from their ATs. All of them. Air Superiority, Flurry, Toxic Dart, you name it and it is in a power pool, it is meant to not compete with AT powers, simply augment or fill holes in character build/concept. And since Flurry is the T1 power in the set? It won't be an AoE. Nor will it be high damage (for the aforementioned reasons).

 

Edit: As for the rate of others taking it outside of RP reasons? The only Controller I ever enjoyed playing used both Air Superiority and Flurry as the main attack powers. Mez targets, unload with Air Superiority and Flurry, mez target, unload with Air Superiority and Flurry, mez targets.... And while I can't speak for everyone? I know there are players that take Flurry and use it as part of their attack chain.

Edited January 13 by Rudra

[Biff Pow]

Move Flurry to the third tier and make it a cone attack.

[Rudra]

The third tier is where the travel powers in the travel pools go.

[Kaika]

Honestly just make flurry not abysmally terrible DPS and that's good enough for me, as it stands it's quite possibly the worst power in the game.

Edited January 13 by Riot Siren

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

a small area effect punch when you get to where you are going

 

How many other T1 pool powers are AoEs?

[Uun]

Take Speed of Sound instead of Super Speed and you get Jaunt with it. Works similar to Combat Teleport.

 

Most of the T1 pool attacks have a damage scale of about 1.0 and a 3-4s recharge. Flurry is 1.144 w/ a 3s recharge. About the only exception is Arcane Bolt, which is 1.48 w/ a 7s recharge. I would be OK increasing Flurry's damage somewhat if the recharge were increased accordingly (i.e., 1.32 w/ a 6s recharge or 1.64 w/ an 8s recharge). I'm not OK with making it a cone or AoE.

 

Note, the Sands of Mu prestige power has a 16s recharge, uses twice the endurance, and can't be enhanced.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

Honestly just make flurry not abysmally terrible DPS and that's good enough for me, as it stands it's quite possibly the worst power in the game.

*Thinks back to previous threads complaining about Brawl being the worst power in the game, Boxing being the worst power in the game, Kick being the worst power in the game, Air Superiority being the worst power in the game* You know, I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack power that isn't as good or better than any AT's primary or secondary power always seems to be the worst power in the game as long as it is the current power being discussed....

[PancakeGnome]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

*Thinks back to previous threads complaining about Brawl being the worst power in the game, Boxing being the worst power in the game, Kick being the worst power in the game, Air Superiority being the worst power in the game* You know, I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack power that isn't as good or better than any AT's primary or secondary power always seems to be the worst power in the game as long as it is the current power being discussed....

It's about power creep...and evolving philosophies with the game. Some powers just got left behind as they were designed very cautiously out of fear of power balance.

So attack powers in power pools ended up being largely useless after early levels. Instead of being a strong power in a characters build. Later on some powers (like from sorcery) started to become somewhat useful... but still rather scaled back.

The thing is now we can look back and realize power pool attacks having some capability isn't actually game breaking. We have incarnate powers and IO's and attempts to keep players from growing too strong were largely abandoned later in the games life. 

I was running a +4 ITF where the controller was face tanking every group..... while dishing out massive damage.....  would them having an actually useful flurry ability change anything? Nope.....

So I think we need to look at the role of attacks in power pools again, and make them actually useful for a character. Instead of just early level flavoring and a pre-requisite to get later tier power pools..... ((like no one would take kick or boxing if it weren't for needing one for weave / toughness). What if these powers actually were worth taking and slotting up?? 

[SeraphimKensai]

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

No.

 

What is more iconic for a melee super speedster than hitting your foe with a lightning fast barrage of punches?!

An infinite mass punch.

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

It's about power creep...and evolving philosophies with the game. Some powers just got left behind as they were designed very cautiously out of fear of power balance.

So attack powers in power pools ended up being largely useless after early levels. Instead of being a strong power in a characters build. Later on some powers (like from sorcery) started to become somewhat useful... but still rather scaled back.

The thing is now we can look back and realize power pool attacks having some capability isn't actually game breaking. We have incarnate powers and IO's and attempts to keep players from growing too strong were largely abandoned later in the games life. 

I was running a +4 ITF where the controller was face tanking every group..... while dishing out massive damage.....  would them having an actually useful flurry ability change anything? Nope.....

So I think we need to look at the role of attacks in power pools again, and make them actually useful for a character. Instead of just early level flavoring and a pre-requisite to get later tier power pools..... ((like no one would take kick or boxing if it weren't for needing one for weave / toughness). What if these powers actually were worth taking and slotting up?? 

Are you seriously comparing pool power attacks to god-tier Judgements?! The whole point of the incarnate powers was to make your character a literal god in the game. And you can't use them below level 45 after you get them. Flurry can be chosen and slotted at level 2. There is no comparison.

 

Edit: Also, I have characters that have Boxing, Kick, both, and sometimes even Cross Punch. And they are part of my attack chain. It always frustrates me that people come on these forums and claim no one is using certain powers. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean they aren't being used.

Edited January 13 by Rudra

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

*Thinks back to previous threads complaining about Brawl being the worst power in the game, Boxing being the worst power in the game, Kick being the worst power in the game, Air Superiority being the worst power in the game* You know, I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack power that isn't as good or better than any AT's primary or secondary power always seems to be the worst power in the game as long as it is the current power being discussed....

It’s almost like pool powers are supposed to be inferior to primary/secondary powers by design or something.

[Panache]

I’d be down for the exact same power but given a (very much reduced) Vorpal Judgement animation. Being rooted and being a speedster are at odds in my head.

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

*Thinks back to previous threads complaining about Brawl being the worst power in the game, Boxing being the worst power in the game, Kick being the worst power in the game, Air Superiority being the worst power in the game* You know, I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack power that isn't as good or better than any AT's primary or secondary power always seems to be the worst power in the game as long as it is the current power being discussed....

This isn't just a case of "it's sub par thus the worst". Stuff like Jump kick, Air superiority and Boxing are all sub par, but you can find offensive uses for them on classes like controller, or even sub them in for RP reasons without a massive loss. This is Flurry doing about the same DPS as brawl with a 3.3 second activation time. Yes, the Damage per animation time, it deals about the same as the entirely free power you get and are encouraged to stop using at like level 10, while taking three times the time to come out. It's entirely arguable that brawl is more worth using at any level then flurry. As far as I can tell, it is the lowest DPS attack power pick in the game.

 

When I say it has Abysmal DPS, I mean it's TRULY abysmal. If you asked me outside of this thread what the worst power pick in the game was, I would say flurry without a second thought.

Edited January 13 by Riot Siren

[PancakeGnome]

27 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

 

When I say it has Abysmal DPS, I mean it's TRULY abysmal. If you asked me outside of this thread what the worst power pick in the game was, I would say flurry without a second thought.

Lol yea, I don't know why people are against making a power actually usable... especially for what should be for speedsters. 

Instead we get this INSANELY low DPS power with a huge animation time.... that no one uses (outside of a random lvl 10 who takes it for flavor before abandoning their character a few days later).

It's like "yea, punching with a super fast flurry of attacks!!" sounds really cool for a speedster. THEMATICALLY it's a cool power. But MECHANICALLY in the game it's beyond bad. ((For those that don't know, recharge time isn't what is really important with a power, instead it's the animation time that really makes something usable or not)).

Like.... this is a game.... where you could do literally anything with a power..... and people just want to keep it the same really bad original design for nostalgia reasons I guess?

There are SOOOO many ways you could turn this power into something cool / neat for a speedster to take. Something people WANTED to take over hasten. Like, what if it were a toggle that would throw out an extra punch at an enemy now and then?! Just a passive super speed punch aura? 😮 That would be neat. Or..... a dash punch. Or..... a flurry area attack... or.... like.... anything...... 

But single target low damage with 3+ second cast time? It's just a power made to not be taken.... which is silly.

 

Quote

It’s almost like pool powers are supposed to be inferior to primary/secondary powers by design or something.

Yea, original design philosophy was that. BUT WHY? Why intentionally make some powers just horrible compared to anything else you have access to.... so much that there is 0 reason to take it or use it??? 

There is no reason on any character why you would ever take flurry on a basis of mechanics. It's worse than anything else you could do on ANY class. Even grabbing the P2W power and using that instead is WAY better than getting flurry. 

I don't get why people WANT this power to stay this way.....

[Kaika]

26 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

 

Yea, original design philosophy was that. BUT WHY? Why intentionally make some powers just horrible compared to anything else you have access to.... so much that there is 0 reason to take it or use it??? 

There is no reason on any character why you would ever take flurry on a basis of mechanics. It's worse than anything else you could do on ANY class. Even grabbing the P2W power and using that instead is WAY better than getting flurry. 

I don't get why people WANT this power to stay this way.....

So originally and for a rather long time, the developers of the game did not consider animation time when looking at a powers effectiveness... for some reason. Powers like Flares or storm kick used to have animation times of around 3 seconds, making them basically useless, like flurry is now.  In this mind set they only really looked at raw damage and recharge when balancing a power. Most of these power got updated to bring them in line with a better understanding of balance and how impactful animation is. Even jump kick, which used to be just as bad, has received buffs making it only sub par, while Flurry for some reason was left out, and is still rotting in the terrible state it was in back in 2004.

Edited January 13 by Riot Siren

[Doc_Scorpion]

3 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

Lol yea, I don't know why people are against making a power actually usable... especially for what should be for speedsters. 

lol, no.  Nobody is against making a power useable (not that it isn't useable in the first place).  We're against making it into something it's not supposed to be - the equivalent of a primary or secondary power.  Pool powers are supposed to be kinda sucky - they're filler, not your main primary.

 

3 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

nstead we get this INSANELY low DPS power with a huge animation time.... that no one uses (outside of a random lvl 10 who takes it for flavor before abandoning their character a few days later).

Count me alongside @Rudra as someone who uses it the attack chain of several characters - as the gapfiller it's meant to be.  The rising level of hyperbole doesn't enhance your case, quite the opposite in fact.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

This isn't just a case of "it's sub par thus the worst". Stuff like Jump kick, Air superiority and Boxing are all sub par, but you can find offensive uses for them on classes like controller, or even sub them in for RP reasons without a massive loss. This is Flurry doing about the same DPS as brawl with a 3.3 second activation time. Yes, the Damage per animation time, it deals about the same as the entirely free power you get and are encouraged to stop using at like level 10, while taking three times the time to come out. It's entirely arguable that brawl is more worth using at any level then flurry. As far as I can tell, it is the lowest DPS attack power pick in the game.

 

When I say it has Abysmal DPS, I mean it's TRULY abysmal. If you asked me outside of this thread what the worst power pick in the game was, I would say flurry without a second thought.

Let's take a look at that, shall we?

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.inherent.brawl

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.speed.flurry&at=scrapper

 

Because I don't feel like trying to figure out the formulae from the provided links, I'm defaulting to Mids.

 

Brawl: 21.02 damage, 75% accuracy, 2 second recharge, 0.83 second cast time. DPA/DPS: 25.3253/7.4276

Flurry: 66.8 damage, 75% accuracy, 3 second recharge, 3.07 second cast time. DPA/DPS: 21.759/11.0049

 

When you factor in both activation time and recharge time, Flurry is doing 1.48x more damage than Brawl. It is not doing less damage.

[PancakeGnome]

7 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Pool powers are supposed to be kinda sucky

... yea, but... what if.... there were more power options that weren't supposed to be sucky? And people actually wanted to take? And use? .....

 

Quote

Count me alongside @Rudra as someone who uses it the attack chain of several characters - as the gapfiller it's meant to be.

What was your powerset / build that you did that on? I can't picture a single powerset combo that would use flurry (unless just did it for RP).

Edited January 13 by PancakeGnome

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

... yea, but... what if.... there were more power options that weren't supposed to be sucky? And people actually wanted to take? And use? .....

 

What was your powerset / build that you did that on? I can't picture a single powerset combo that would use flurry (unless just did it for RP).

First part: If it is a pool power? It will be inferior to AT primary/secondary attacks.

 

Second part: Here is one of mine: Ice/Storm/Flight/Speed/Fighting/Ice Controller

1) Block of Ice

1) Gale

2) Frostbite

4) Fly

6) Flurry

8 ) Snow Storm

10) Steamy Mist

12) Hover

14) Air Superiority

16) Freezing Rain

18) O2 Boost

20) Ice Slick

22) Flash Freeze

24) Kick (not used as part of the attack chain)

26) Tough

28) Glacier

30) Arctic Air

32) Jack Frost

35) Tornado

38) Lightning Storm

41) Ice Blast

44) Hibernate

47) Ice Storm

49) Frozen Armor

 

(Edit: And this is not one of my speedster characters.)

 

Edited January 13 by Rudra

[PancakeGnome]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

When you factor in both activation time and recharge time,

.... nobody factors in activation and recharge time.... 

Uhhh, like, what? Haha, I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Have you guys leveled up past 10 before??? Eventually you get a lot of powers, and you have more than enough to choose from. In fact so many that you have to pick which ones you use in what we call a "attack chain". Usually filling out a series of attacks before the first one is recharged already.

So let's say you have 10 attack powers. But if the best first 3 fill your attack chain and the first one is recharged by the end of the 3rd attack.... then you don't need more attacks.

That's why at level 50, you don't use brawl anymore. VERY EARLY in levels, yea, you might throw a brawl in there, because you have nothing better to do. But every class has plenty of powers by the time they are even just 30 or so for them not to need to throw in brawl anymore......

This entire conversation is like debating what happens in the very very very early game, where you are focusing on a recharge time (????) of a 3 second long cast power......  that isn't really how the game plays past the low levels......

[Kaika]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Let's take a look at that, shall we?

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=inherent.inherent.brawl

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.speed.flurry&at=scrapper

 

Because I don't feel like trying to figure out the formulae from the provided links, I'm defaulting to Mids.

 

Brawl: 21.02 damage, 75% accuracy, 2 second recharge, 0.83 second cast time. DPA/DPS: 25.3253/7.4276

Flurry: 66.8 damage, 75% accuracy, 3 second recharge, 3.07 second cast time. DPA/DPS: 21.759/11.0049

 

When you factor in both activation time and recharge time, Flurry is doing 1.48x more damage than Brawl. It is not doing less damage.

Apologies I have a bad habit of referring to DPA and DPS interchangeably, I am speaking entirely about DPA ... where by your math it loses to BRAWL.

 

 The fact it's damage is so low that we can compare it closely to brawl like this proves my point I feel.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, PancakeGnome said:

.... nobody factors in activation and recharge time.... 

Uhhh, like, what? Haha, I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Have you guys leveled up past 10 before??? Eventually you get a lot of powers, and you have more than enough to choose from. In fact so many that you have to pick which ones you use in what we call a "attack chain". Usually filling out a series of attacks before the first one is recharged already.

So let's say you have 10 attack powers. But if the best first 3 fill your attack chain and the first one is recharged by the end of the 3rd attack.... then you don't need more attacks.

That's why at level 50, you don't use brawl anymore. VERY EARLY in levels, yea, you might throw a brawl in there, because you have nothing better to do. But every class has plenty of powers by the time they are even just 30 or so for them not to need to throw in brawl anymore......

This entire conversation is like debating what happens in the very very very early game, where you are focusing on a recharge time (????) of a 3 second long cast power......  that isn't really how the game plays past the low levels......

Oh, wow! You mean I have to level past 10 to understand what you are talking about?! Well, golly gosh gee. I guess I better start leveling my characters past level 10 then. Someone should really report me for cheating at the game though. Because I have a multitude of full incarnate characters.