Madame Web

[Ghost]

Anyone going to see this?

It’s Sony, and I haven’t liked any of there Marvel movies in a long time.  So I’ll wait until I can watch it at home.

I know the star (Dakota Johnson) kinda took a shot at it this week by saying “it’s as if AI generated a perfect movie for your boyfriend”.

 

BTW, the industry “experts” are predicting a worldwide total take of 55-100mill.

[Techwright]

This one feels more like a "wait for Disney+" film.  That is, assuming Sony permits Disney+ to lump it with the Marvel category.   To be fair, though, it takes a really strong film to get me to the theaters post-COVID outbreak.  Dune, part 2 may be the one to do it next.

 

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Industry wonk note: DJ switched agencies from William Morris to Creative Artists right after the first trailer dropped.

And, given the Adrien-Brody-level run of luck with flicks she's had after the awful-but-awfully-lucrative 50 Shades trilogy ($1.2bn between 'em), I think the words "final straw" may have been used at some point.

 

So let's take a look at it...

 

So it looks like an attempt to do a time-twisting Tenet story in Spider-garb, with at least one GRIMDARKNOSMILESNOPARENTS Spider-Man as the antagonist.

And either the trailer's cutting is ...not great... or they dropped it with half-done CGI, and the plot threads do not feel well spun.

 

It's certainly gonna live or die by CGI. And from interviews I'm not sure DJ was terribly comfortable with all the green screen stuff. Pretending a green tennis ball on a stick is a TERRIFYING MONSTER because your writer tells you it is requires good direction and framing, which involving storytellers like Favreau, Spielberg and Patty Jenkins are all known to be good at.

 

As for that director: SJ Clarkson is... well, let's say fresh meat to the Hollyweird grinder, turning out very decent BBC and HBO dramas before this. Helming a CGI-heavy cape flick for a desperate, dying studio is probably not the way you wanna get your first cred on your CV.

 

Having been through that in a much smaller way, I have an inkling I know how she feels right now, and probably never wants to see the inside of a Burbank office again.

Edited February 5 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Thraxen]

Im gonna go see it. Wife wants to see it more than me and im the huge Spidey fan. 

[Ghost]

26 minutes ago, Thraxen said:

Im gonna go see it. Wife wants to see it more than me and im the huge Spidey fan. 

You’ll have to let us know what you think

[Ghost]

Well, sounds like there is now a review embargo until AFTER it’s been released in a few countries.

 

What a mess this movie is turning out to be.

Edited February 7 by Ghost

[Excraft]

Going to be honest, this looks terrible to me.  Sad as it is to say, I'm pretty much done with superhero movies.  The MCU has stunk since Endgame and don't even get me started on the DCU. Good luck to James Gunn.  Everything I read about upcoming projects sounds like it's all going to be another steaming pile.

 

The trailers for this look like more pushing of "the message" instead of actually writing good characters that have good characterization that go on a journey. 

[Ghost]

7 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

 

The trailers for this look like more pushing of "the message" instead of actually writing good characters that have good characterization that go on a journey. 

Sadly, that looks to be the case with most western entertainment these days.

[Ghost]

Yikes 23% on RT

some reviews I’ve seen are calling it worse than Morbius.

 

I feel bad for Sydney Sweeney.  Read an interview where she sounded very excited getting to play a superhero and was hoping she could play one again.  Unlike the star, who seemed to be complaining at every turn.

Edited February 13 by Ghost

[BrandX]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:54 AM, Excraft said:

Going to be honest, this looks terrible to me.  Sad as it is to say, I'm pretty much done with superhero movies.  The MCU has stunk since Endgame and don't even get me started on the DCU. Good luck to James Gunn.  Everything I read about upcoming projects sounds like it's all going to be another steaming pile.

 

The trailers for this look like more pushing of "the message" instead of actually writing good characters that have good characterization that go on a journey. 

 

Honestly, seeing we couldn't get a comic accurate Mattie on her first big screen debut had me off on it and I like the actress.  Maybe I would've overlooked it if the trailer didn't look like trash and I was impressed by any of the other Spider-verse with no Spider-Man movies we've had.  I thought Venom was merely okay and not that great and lacked Spider-Man.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

19 hours ago, Ghost said:

Yikes 23% on RT

Now 18%... and falling. Even the "positive" reviews say it's not good. It seems almost as inexplicable Sony putting this out as WB burning Batgirl.

 

I still haven't got round to seeing Jared Leto's magnum opus, btw. Just out of Morbid curiosity, are we talking:

• "so bad it's hilarious" (eg: Jason X, Doom, KISS's Phantom Of The Park)
• "switch off after 20 minutes bad" (Rebel Moon)
• "a crime against the Gods of cinematography so heinous that the director and actors deserve an eternity in career hell" (Battlefield: Earth)

Edited February 14 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Mr. Vee]

I was hoping for a, but it was more b. If you're not compelled to watch it I wouldn't try. Having said that I didn't find it as causing-me-pain-turn-it-off-and-burn-it bad as Venom 2

[Frostbiter]

2 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Now 18%... and falling. Even the "positive" reviews say it's not good. It seems almost as inexplicable Sony putting this out as WB burning Batgirl.

 

I still haven't got round to seeing Jared Leto's magnum opus, btw. Just out of Morbid curiosity, are we talking:

• "so bad it's hilarious" (eg: Jason X, Doom, KISS's Phantom Of The Park)
• "switch off after 20 minutes bad" (Rebel Moon)
• "a crime against the Gods of cinematography so heinous that the director and actors deserve an eternity in career hell" (Battlefield: Earth)

 

It's mostly the CGI effects and the script changes that made Morbius go from "good" to merely "watchable". I liked the movie but it was easy to tell were the script changes were.

[Excraft]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:25 AM, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Now 18%... and falling. Even the "positive" reviews say it's not good. It seems almost as inexplicable Sony putting this out as WB burning Batgirl.

 

Studios apparently haven't gotten the message yet that the superhero genre has been over saturated for years and pushing "the message" isn't working.  Hiring "writers" and producers who've never read a single comic with no respect or reverence of the source material isn't helping either. 

[battlewraith]

16 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Studios apparently haven't gotten the message yet that the superhero genre has been over saturated for years and pushing "the message" isn't working.  Hiring "writers" and producers who've never read a single comic with no respect or reverence of the source material isn't helping either. 

 

What do you mean by "the message"? What message?

[Excraft]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

What do you mean by "the message"? What message?

 

 

[ZacKing]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

What do you mean by "the message"? What message?

 

It basically means pushing of a social justice agenda.  Sad thing is, there's no need for it in my opinion and it seems like it's being used as an excuse for why modern movies suck and blaming the audience for not going to see it.  If studios hired talented writers who know how to craft good stories with fleshed out, well written characters, people will go to see it.  Doesn't matter what race or gender the characters are.  I'm not sure how or when it happened that somehow people think there were never strong female characters in TV and films.  I love kick ass characters like Wonder Woman, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, Samantha Carter, Teyla Emmagen, Storm, Jean Grey etc etc. 

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

 

 

Ok, so "the message" is things like multiculturalism, diversity, being supportive of lgbtq--stuff like that? It might seem clear to you, but it's kind of vague to me. Some douche snearing "the message" over this picture is not really that explanatory.

 

But if I was trying to explain to the industry what they need to do in order to be more successful, it would be something like this:

1. Go back to stories and characterizations solely of straight white people.

2. The men do shit and the women look good and are supportive of the men.

3. Assume a white, north American (probably Christian) audience.

 

Is that the strategy?

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

It basically means pushing of a social justice agenda.  Sad thing is, there's no need for it in my opinion and it seems like it's being used as an excuse for why modern movies suck and blaming the audience for not going to see it.  If studios hired talented writers who know how to craft good stories with fleshed out, well written characters, people will go to see it.  Doesn't matter what race or gender the characters are.  I'm not sure how or when it happened that somehow people think there were never strong female characters in TV and films.  I love kick ass characters like Wonder Woman, Sarah Connor, Ellen Ripley, Samantha Carter, Teyla Emmagen, Storm, Jean Grey etc etc. 

 

That might be the case. It could be that SJWs have infected everything and are just trashing cinema.

But personally I think this is all about money and that the studio execs actually know what they're doing despite complaining about bombs. The marketing strategy where you make a lot of films, particularly action movies, aimed at white guys was gold in the past but doesn't work that well now. Movies are expensive and there is a ton more competition from video games, streaming sports, etc. You can't float the industry on them any more. So the bean counters are packing in more demographics as the target audience and I actually think this is more successful and/or necessary than pissy youtube critics think it is.

[ZacKing]

15 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That might be the case. It could be that SJWs have infected everything and are just trashing cinema.

But personally I think this is all about money and that the studio execs actually know what they're doing despite complaining about bombs. The marketing strategy where you make a lot of films, particularly action movies, aimed at white guys was gold in the past but doesn't work that well now. Movies are expensive and there is a ton more competition from video games, streaming sports, etc. You can't float the industry on them any more. So the bean counters are packing in more demographics as the target audience and I actually think this is more successful and/or necessary than pissy youtube critics think it is.

 

I don't agree with this at all and if you'd listen to what those "pissy YouTube critics" are saying, they're right on the money.  What they're saying is it's the studios hiring shit writers who don't know how to write or don't respect or understand the source material.  It's the studios spending literal shit tons of money on and way over relying on visual effects and spectacle of big action set pieces to compensate for a crap story.  It's the studios hiring and way overpaying untalented "actors" who can't act and aren't capable of leading a film (see Ezra Miller and "The Flash").  The whole pushing of the "message" is a crutch for the studios to complain that audiences are xenophobes or homophobes or racists or misogynists or whatever other isms there are when people don't pay to go see their shit movies that wind up flopping at the box office and losing millions.

 

As an example, take Godzilla: Minus One.  It's budget was around 10 to 15 mil and brought in 10 times that in worldwide box office.  Were that made in Hollywood instead, it would have easily topped 150 or 200 million budget, if not more.  The Marvels had a near 300 million dollar budget.  That's around the same budget for all 3 LoTR movies combined and the LoTR trilogy raked in billions.  Why?  Because it's a well crafted story with interesting characters.  Where did that money go on the Marvels?  Spending all that didn't make the story any better or the film more successful.  It stunk and the studio knew it was going to stink from the get go, but they're more about pushing out quantity over quality to have content for their failing streaming services to try and compete with Netflix.

 

Write a good movie with well thought out characters and well crafted story arc and people will go see it. 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

That might be the case. It could be that SJWs have infected everything and are just trashing cinema.

But personally I think this is all about money and that the studio execs actually know what they're doing despite complaining about bombs. The marketing strategy where you make a lot of films, particularly action movies, aimed at white guys was gold in the past but doesn't work that well now. Movies are expensive and there is a ton more competition from video games, streaming sports, etc. You can't float the industry on them any more. So the bean counters are packing in more demographics as the target audience and I actually think this is more successful and/or necessary than pissy youtube critics think it is.

They are actually NOT packing in more demographics.

You only have to look at the numbers to see that.

 

Audiences are down.  Money is down.  Number of schedule releases this year is down.

 

[Ghost]

Heard a reviewer today say that Sony should be investigated for money laundering after releasing this mess of a movie - thought that was pretty damn funny

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Ok, so "the message" is things like multiculturalism, diversity, being supportive of lgbtq--stuff like that? It might seem clear to you, but it's kind of vague to me. Some douche snearing "the message" over this picture is not really that explanatory.

 

But if I was trying to explain to the industry what they need to do in order to be more successful, it would be something like this:

1. Go back to stories and characterizations solely of straight white people.

2. The men do shit and the women look good and are supportive of the men.

3. Assume a white, north American (probably Christian) audience.

 

Is that the strategy?

 

Well no, the strategy should be to make good films.  Hire talented writers, directors, producers and actors who know what they're doing regardless of race or gender or whatever other check boxes you feel are important.  As others have said, write a good story with well thought out characters and you'll be successful, doesn't matter what race or gender writes it.  A good story is a good story.  What you're suggesting in your 3 points here is just complete ignorance and looking to bait people into an argument.  No one, including the "pissy YouTube critics" you're complaining about have suggested anything like that. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

But personally I think this is all about money and that the studio execs actually know what they're doing despite complaining about bombs.

 

Quite clearly they don't and ticket sales cratering with flop after flop after flop is a crystal clear indication of that. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

The marketing strategy where you make a lot of films, particularly action movies, aimed at white guys was gold in the past but doesn't work that well now.

 

This isn't true either.  See the box office receipts of the MCU films prior to Endgame as examples.  Those weren't solely aimed at "white guys".  If you want to see who the fans are, go to a comic con sometime and take note of how many women dress up as Iron Man or Captain America or how many people of varying races and genders are cosplaying as Black Panther or Blade. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Movies are expensive and there is a ton more competition from video games, streaming sports, etc.

 

@ZacKing is spot on here.  Movies are expensive because studios have become over-reliant on VFX to compensate for lack of story.

 

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

So the bean counters are packing in more demographics as the target audience and I actually think this is more successful and/or necessary than pissy youtube critics think it is.

 

@Ghost is right on the money here.  The studios aren't packing in more demographics.  Quite the opposite as ticket sales and profits are cratering.  People know a bad movie when they see one.  Try as they might, these studios aren't able to push people toward what they want.

 

There's a similar situation in the music industry today.  Music studios have been pushing people into buying digital media for years since they sold off all of their manufacturing facilities to press vinyl and burn CDs.  There's nothing physical for them to produce, so it's near pure profit for them to sell digital music.  Despite that effort, sales of Vinyl and CDs and even cassette tapes if you can believe it are still very strong.  Heck, there are a few bands out there who have bought their own vinyl presses and such to sell their music on vinyl and they can't keep up with the demand.  People want something physical to hold in their hands and connect them to their favorite artist.  You can't bring a digital download of a song to a venue to have your favorite artist autograph.  It's something the studios don't understand or just don't care enough about.  Regardless, they haven't been able to change their audience behavior. 

 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Write a good movie with well thought out characters and well crafted story arc and people will go see it. 

 

Riiight and have you done this? Like what makes you think that the people making these movies don't see what they are doing as exactly that? I love this hindsight mentality that armchair critics have--"Hey, the LOTR movies were huge hits because it had a great story, great actors, and so on. So just do that again." As if Peter Jackson was able to continue that level of quality for the Hobbit movies, when he presumably had more control and more resources to work with. Not. 

 

Untalented actors huh? Ezra Miller is a lunatic. But I saw that Flash movie and his acting wasn't the problem. He was cast in the part because of his previous performances in other projects, they didn't just randomly select some weird guy.

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

The whole pushing of the "message" is a crutch for the studios to complain that audiences are xenophobes or homophobes or racists or misogynists or whatever other isms there are when people don't pay to go see their shit movies that wind up flopping at the box office and losing millions.

 

 

Yeah they're probably doing that to a certain extant. It certainly helps that there actually oodles of xenophobes, racists, misogynists and whatnot on social media pissing and moaning about movies and trying to tank them before they even open.

 

Godzilla: Minus One is a Godzilla movie. How many other well crafted and acted foreign films are doing those kinds of numbers?  You really think that speaks to the point you're making? 

And the thing about Hollywood budgets is this: it's an industry. It doesn't matter whether spending all that money on a film pays off with respect to profit. The money is spent to keep the machinery running--to keep all those creative teams employed. Flops are not only expected, they use creative bookkeeping to act like high grossing films performed poorly. 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

The Marvels had a near 300 million dollar budget.  That's around the same budget for all 3 LoTR movies combined and the LoTR trilogy raked in billions.  Why?  Because it's a well crafted story with interesting characters.  Where did that money go on the Marvels?  Spending all that didn't make the story any better or the film more successful.  It stunk and the studio knew it was going to stink from the get go, but they're more about pushing out quantity over quality to have content for their failing streaming services to try and compete with Netflix.

 

This is a good point too.  Look at Secret Invasion on D+.  200+ million dollar budget??  For what?  Where did that money go?  Disney is definitely all about churning out as much crap as possible to throw onto D+ and competing with Netflix.  CBS/Paramount are talking about merging with WB to be more competitive for streaming too.