What I wish Empathy looked like (A long overdue rework)

[Shin Magmus]

A foreword from the author...

 

     Hi there, I'm the Mr. Shin who likes Defenders and Controllers.  You may have noticed me mention that Empathy is the worst Support set in the game once or twice.  Well it's the worst right now (after changes to other sets), and critically bad on Defenders in particular... but I did not always feel this way.  2 decades ago, my first lv50 on Live was an Empathy/Dark Defender.  I am intricately familiar with playing the set both before and after power creep, and with playing its near identical analogues: first in Thermal and then later when Pain Domination was added.  I recall when Pain Domination first came out, we noticed very clearly the changes to the set to bring it more in line with playing "better" with MMs, pets in general, and League mechanics.  I also noticed the overt detail that no fewer than 3 of Pain Domination's powers are simply upgrades from their Empathy companion powers: this will be discussed in detail.  These 3 powers offer incentives to pick Pain Domination over Empathy in an extremely literal way.  I've mentioned this fairly often throughout the years, but after the Homecoming Team completed excellent reworks of Trick Arrow and Force Field, it makes Empathy's current state just stick out like a sore thumb.  There is currently a patch being tested which brings minor buffs to a few other sets again, including a nice buff to Melt Armor in Thermal.  In light of all these changes: Empathy is now blatantly the weakest choice you can pick, and that's a true statement if you play it well and actively use all of the buffs.  On the other hand, If you play it poorly (don't click your powers, fail to buff, focus on reactive healing), it is even more egregiously bad.  I think that next major patch is a great time to finally rework Empathy and bring it up to par with the best choices it competes with.  Seeing Empathy finally be "good" would do wonders for Homecoming's power balance and new player experience, as we move into an era of a potential player surge.  Read on below to see how I would fix Empathy.

 

 

Fixed Empathy

By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin Magmus)

(Numerical values listed below will be using Defender as the base AT.  Reduce power values by known scalar ratios for other ATs)

 

T1 - Healing Aura / T2 - Heal Other

While these powers are ruthlessly boring, they have direct parity with the heals in Pain and Thermal: which seems to be the intended baseline for such powers.  I dislike how long of an animation time commitment going with your PbAoE Heal is in all 3 of these sets, and this is a big issue when people put their Healing Aura on auto-cast: because it prevents them from being able to reactively click other powers.  No changes are warranted here, but a short animation time reduction to every PbAoE heal like this (including Radiant Aura) would probably be good for the game.

*No Changes -or- minor animation time reduction for ALL Healing Aura clones*

 

T3 - Absorb Pain

Here's our first directly inferior power.  Absorb Pain debuffs the user in exchange for the massive heal, but it doesn't give them any real incentive to use this power over Heal Other most of the time.  Pain got around this by making Absorb Pain buff the user's damage, which is a useful buff for focusing on your work.  As Empathy is more defensively-themed, I think Absorb Pain giving Resistance is entirely on-brand.  This buff not only makes the power more safe to use, incentivizing the player to go for it, but it diversifies what IOs can be slotted into the power.

*Add Resistance on self after use / allow slotting Resist sets / +22.5% Damage Resistance (All) on self (unresistable) for 15s*

 

T4 - Resurrect

Here's our second directly inferior power.  With the same 3 minute CD as Conduit of Pain but no buffs or secondary effects to the target or to yourself: Resurrect is the absolute worst "Rez" in the game.  An incredibly simple fix is simply for this power to buff the target, using templates from other "Rez" powers.  Conduit of Pain, Mutation, and Elixer of Life all give a very strong buff for a duration, followed by a weaker debuff for half that duration.  This double-edged buff/debuff theme does fit those powers, but for an Empath's kind heart I don't think we want to debuff our teammates.  In exchange, I propose the buff granted be weaker as balance for not having a "crash" or debuff.  Resurrect should give the target +12.5% Defense (All but Psy) and 15% Res (All) for 60s.

*Add Defense and Resistance on revived target after use / allow slotting Defense and Resist sets / + 12.5% Def (All but Psy), +15% Damage Resistance (All) on target (unresistable) for 60s*

 

T5 - Clear Mind

Here's our third directly inferior power.  Clear Mind is identical to Clarity, but both are weaker than Pain's Enforced Morale which gives a minor +Recharge as well.  The bigger issue is how much worse these powers are than Antidote and Thaw though, which provide damage resistance on top of valuable debuff resistance (to slows) in exchange for not granting +Perception.  I've always thought there was a middle ground here, and that ground was giving both Clear Mind and Clarion the property of minor Resistance to Psy damage.  It makes complete sense with the names of the powers, and it partially patches a current hole in both Empathy and Sonic Resonance.  Crucially: Clear Mind, Enforced Morale, and Clarity are regarded as Dead Powers in your build because they can slot nothing useful, nor is adding slots to them ever useful.  Most people throw in a Recharge IO and that barely makes any difference.  Allowing the player to mule an incredibly useful Unique Resistance IO in these powers is simply giving them parity with Poison and Thermal Radiation.

*Add Resistance on target after use / allow slotting Resist sets / +10% Damage Resistance (Psy) on target (unresistable) for 90s*

 

T6 - Fortitude

I genuinely don't have an issue with this power.  It's unfortunate that sets with a single target buff like this have problems on MMs because they can't easily buff all the pets and still buff the player teammates, but that's not a gigantic issue.  Fortitude has parity with similar powers like Forge and Temporal Selection: so buffing Fortitude is a dangerous move that would invite buffs to several other powers.  The only issue with this power is that players don't use it, but we can't control that.

*No changes*

 

T7 - Revitalizing Aura (Recovery Aura + Regeneration Aura)

It's best to just say this first: a pure Recovery buff is worthless on many teammates whose builds do not require help managing endurance.  All good Recovery buffs in this game have secondary effects, usually +Recharge, to provide any benefit at all in these situations.  Recovery Aura and Regeneration Aura also dubiously cannot be made permanent, in a game where support sets have completely defined themselves by (barely) reaching monstrous Recharge to "perma" buffs such as Overgrowth and Chrono Shift.  So what we've got here is a power that is frequently, situationally useless... with the audacity to also say that it needs downtime.  This is completely sound justification to merge Recovery Aura directly into Regeneration Aura as part of the rework.  It's just good game design to do this.  Now, for this new power, it needs a name and I think "Revitalizing Aura" fits the bill nicely.  We're not done yet though.  Increasing the duration is interesting but Overgrowth lasts for only 60s and Chrono Shift for 90s, and this power is very similar in scope and power to those.  Leaving it at 90s duration "feels right", so that leaves lowering the CD.  A reduction from 500s to 360s is reasonable for uptime that is nearly permanent, and with outside sources of +Recharge could be permanent.  Now all that's left is strength adjustment.  Recovery +200% -> +100%.  Regen +500% -> +250%.  Now grants debuff resistance, scales with player level, 64.88% resistance to -Regen/-Recovery/-End at lv50.  This new power still provides incredibly potent buffs, but now it also insulates the team against debuffs making it more consistent overall at countering enemy groups which wield such debuffs.

*Regeneration Aura and Recovery Aura combined / Power renamed to Revitalizing Aura / Base buff effects decreased, added debuff resistance to -Regen and -Recovery / decreased cooldown*

*Power Stats: PbAoE buff (allies and self), size unchanged, 360s CD / +100% Recovery, +250% Regeneration on targets (unresistable) for 90s / +64.88% Resistance to -Regeneration, -Recovery, and -Endurance (ignores buffs and enhancements, unresistable, scales with player level) on targets for 90s*

 

T8 - Merciful Plea (Empathy gets a NEW POWER)

There's no getting around the obvious answer here: the solution is the thing that was increased on Trick Arrow during the rework and added to Force Field during the rework: Empathy needs a power that inflicts -Resistance on enemies.  This is the only way for the set to remain relevant on teams at all when the players aren't struggling, and don't need Empathy for its defensive merits.  However, in the interest of naming and theme: I strongly believe that the new power should be categorically unable to deal any direct damage.  This means the power CAN'T slot set categories which contain "damage procs".  I think this design constraint is not that limiting, and there are several solid potential ideas, but I'll throw out the one I like best: "Merciful Plea" ("Heartful Cry").  This should be a PbAoE debuff with a massive radius, very similar Anguishing Cry.  This vector passively teaches new players that they should be near their team and move in with them: which will facilitate better synergy with Healing Aura and the Defender ATO procs.  A -Resistance power needs another effect, and the obvious choice is -Damage so you can better protect your teammates and keep them alive.

*Added new power "Merciful Plea" to debuff enemy Resistance / also reduces their Damage output / cannot slot any procs or be made to deal direct damage*

*Power Stats: PbAoE 25 ft radius, 16 targets max / 120s CD / -30% Resistance (All) for 30s on targets (ignores buffs and enhancements) / -37.5% Strength to Damage (All) on targets for 30s*

 

T9 - Adrenaline Boost

This power is pretty cracked for what it does honestly, just like Painbringer.  When enhanced for Heal(Regen), this buff can make a decent build completely un-killable and put them into a hands-off safety state for 90s.  I see no reason to change this.  However, if I was going to add anything, it would be that Painbringer and Adrenaline Boost should be the only powers in the game that give the target a small amount of "Bloom" like Nature, enabling everyone to heal the targets more during the effect and partially counteracting -Heal debuffs

*No changes -or- Add minor +Healing (Negative Resistance to Healing)*

 

 

That's it, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this rework.  Unless of course, if you just want to stop in to tell me that "Empathy is fine", in which case you really don't understand the game.

Edited February 9 by ShinMagmus

[FupDup]

My one bone of contention is in the "Merciful Plea" debuff, specifically the -res component. I don't think it's overpowered per se, but it feels out of theme for the set (defensive focus) and I don't like feeding into the meta of absolutely everything needing huge -res debuffs in them. And it's the same amount that Pain Domination gets, which reduces one of the main differences between the two sets (Pain being basically an "offensive Empathy"). As a nitpick it also doesn't seem very "merciful" to make enemies die faster. Making them do less damage, sure that fits the theme (they hold back a little because they feel bad for you). 

 

Maybe it could be replaced with -to hit or something, IDK, I admit that I don't have an idea for an alternative. I just don't like the proliferation of -res. I understand the reason for having it (the game is all about offense all day every day) but it still doesn't taste quite right. Maybe add a modest recharge buff to one of the ally buff powers like Fortitude, which still contributes a bit to offense but by buffing allies instead of by debuffing enemy armor (so it still fits the feel/flavor of the set). 

 

Maybe a confuse effect? Logic being that you make the enemy sympathize with your cause and thus betray their allies. I don't think a placate would be effective here? Just spitballing. 

Edited February 9 by FupDup

[Shin Magmus]

5 minutes ago, FupDup said:

My one bone of contention is in the "Merciful Plea" debuff, specifically the -res component. I don't think it's overpowered per se, but it feels out of theme for the set (defensive focus) and I don't like feeding into the meta of absolutely everything needing huge -res debuffs in them. And it's the same amount that Pain Domination gets, which reduces one of the main differences between the two sets (Pain being basically an "offensive Empathy"). As a nitpick it also doesn't seem very "merciful" to make enemies die faster. Making them do less damage, sure that fits the theme (they hold back a little because they feel bad for you). 

 

Maybe it could be replaced with -to hit or something, IDK, I admit that I don't have an idea for an alternative. I just don't like the proliferation of -res. I understand the reason for having it (the game is all about offense all day every day) but it still doesn't taste quite right. Maybe add a modest recharge buff to one of the ally buff powers like Fortitude, which still contributes a bit to offense but by buffing allies instead of by debuffing enemies (so it still fits the feel/flavor of the set). 

The only issue is that as soon as you add -Tohit, players can add procs.  If the debuff is autohit, then at least it's not possible to add Accurate Tohit Debuff sets which means no Cloud Senses dmg proc.  I'm less concerned with how the power makes enemies die faster (but it does need to do that, so this set can be relevant in any way), and more concerned with not letting Empaths have a proc nuke of any kind... Because Anguishing Cry is a vicious proc nuke.

[Derek Icelord]

I really like this idea.

 

On Live, I mained an Empathy/Psi Defender and have recreated the character on Homecoming as well. Empathy definitely needs some love.

 

I have two critiques of your proposals:
First, as FupDup said, Merciful Cry "feels off" for the set. I think it would be interesting to make it a Fortitude-esque power, but grant +RES(All) or all but Psi since you've proposed having that in Clear Mind, making Empathy the only set that can grant allies both +DEF(All) and +RES(All). Name it something like Stalwart Resolve. I don't think Empathy needs a -RES power to be useful, and having a power that targets foes feels against the set's theme.

Second, I think it'd be a little more in keeping with Empathy's theme for Resurrect to retain its no buff status, but instead have a shorter cooldown than other rez powers. Something like going from base 180s to 120s recharge.

 

 

[Shin Magmus]

As long as Resurrect is buffed in quite literally ANY meaningful way, then we are making progress.  Lower CD is just one other way, but it needs something.

[Renatos1023]

I really like the idea of combining Regeneration and Recovery Aura into a single power with slightly lowered stats - I think that is a good change just by itself. 

I like the idea of the new power, but I do agree that targeting enemies feels off for Empathy. Since you had it tagged for -Res and -Dam, what if it was just made a team buff instead that did +Dam and +Res, with similar numbers you would get approximately the same effect of dealing more damage and taking less. I'm not sure if there is a proc issue there, but one would think the power could be tagged to not accept them.

Also, my issue with Clear Mind (and Clarity in Sonic/) is that they are single target, and I can't be bothered to try and mete that out and keep track of who needs it. I think if it was a Team AoE like how shields are now, it would be a huge QoL increase and would make me at least think about taking it. 

[Harlequin565]

I mained an Emp/Psi on live and it was terribly painful. It was a while before I made an Emp on Homecoming.

 

It's by far my most demanding character in terms of maintaining powers on people. Fort on 7, AB on one and CM on the blasters means you're just watching the buff bars looking for blinkies to refresh. A team with a well played Empath on it is the safest team in the game with a damage bonus to boot.

 

So I pretty much think all your changes are good, esp the 2 auras to 1.

What would be awesome in your spare slot would be a toggle rather than a click. I'm thinking something akin to Sonic's Disruption Field. Drop it on an ally to "amplify" their latent empathic talent. Apply either a straight limited AoE team buff (debuffs don't work for me) that gives a frontliner benefits - Massive debuff resistance, +perception, or possibly even an accuracy debuff. Or for bonus points, add a buff that changes depending on which of Empathy's click powers (Fort, CM, AB or even the Aura) is currently running on the target. Empathy (to me) shouldn't have a single enemy affecting or debuffing power other than something that might affect their minds (-accuracy etc).

 

Just my tuppence. Either way, I think this would be a very nice rework.

[FupDup]

If the fear is a proc-bomb, it's entirely possible to have a secondary effect without making it enhanceable. The game does not have an automatic system to determine what stuff you can slot in a power. Each individual power has its own text list of every single set that can go into it, that gets created manually. So that doesn't need to be a problem here. 

 

Anyways, I had a few alternate ideas in the meantime. -Accuracy is similar in impact to -tohit, but without any associated enhancement sets. -Recharge by itself (with no movement slows) should probably be similar to that, or failing that we can just choose to neglect adding slow sets to the power as per above. Maybe even -range? 

[MJABBAR88]

Give emp some sort of absorb. That would be nice 

[SupaFreak]

I personally like everything but the "Merciful Plea" on this.  Always considered Empathy to be a set to NOT affect enemies, instead all about taking care of self and teammates/others.

 

Personally, some sort of equivalent to "Soothing Aura" from Pain Domination but with a pulsing minor Heal + Absorb.  Even if the pulse took longer but Heal & Absorb were better.  Dunno, just off the top of my head without deep thought into it.

 

But yea, the Revitalizing Aura combining the 2 Auras would be sweet and not out of the concept of Empathy by any means.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, ShinMagmus said:

T3 - Absorb Pain

Here's our first directly inferior power.  Absorb Pain debuffs the user in exchange for the massive heal, but it doesn't give them any real incentive to use this power over Heal Other most of the time.  Pain got around this by making Absorb Pain buff the user's damage, which is a useful buff for focusing on your work.  As Empathy is more defensively-themed, I think Absorb Pain giving Resistance is entirely on-brand.  This buff not only makes the power more safe to use, incentivizing the player to go for it, but it diversifies what IOs can be slotted into the power.

*Add Resistance on self after use / allow slotting Resist sets / +22.5% Damage Resistance (All) on self (unresistable) for 15s*

 

I agree that Absorb Pain is worthless as it is now.

It doesn't even do damage like https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Self_Destruction

 

On 2/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, ShinMagmus said:

T8 - Merciful Plea (Empathy gets a NEW POWER)

There's no getting around the obvious answer here: the solution is the thing that was increased on Trick Arrow during the rework and added to Force Field during the rework: Empathy needs a power that inflicts -Resistance on enemies.  This is the only way for the set to remain relevant on teams at all when the players aren't struggling, and don't need Empathy for its defensive merits.  However, in the interest of naming and theme: I strongly believe that the new power should be categorically unable to deal any direct damage.  This means the power CAN'T slot set categories which contain "damage procs".  I think this design constraint is not that limiting, and there are several solid potential ideas, but I'll throw out the one I like best: "Merciful Plea" ("Heartful Cry").  This should be a PbAoE debuff with a massive radius, very similar Anguishing Cry.  This vector passively teaches new players that they should be near their team and move in with them: which will facilitate better synergy with Healing Aura and the Defender ATO procs.  A -Resistance power needs another effect, and the obvious choice is -Damage so you can better protect your teammates and keep them alive.

*Added new power "Merciful Plea" to debuff enemy Resistance / also reduces their Damage output / cannot slot any procs or be made to deal direct damage*

*Power Stats: PbAoE 25 ft radius, 16 targets max / 120s CD / -30% Resistance (All) for 30s on targets (ignores buffs and enhancements) / -37.5% Strength to Damage (All) on targets for 30s*

 

Empathy is a buffing set and not a debuffing one.

You need to think of something that would help your teammates instead of doing something against the enemy.

One possible example would be some variation of leadership (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Leadership#Maneuvers, https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Leadership#Assault, https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Leadership#Tactics)

 combined. Not as powerful as having the individual leadership skills and a click rather than a toggle.

 

On 2/9/2024 at 3:05 PM, ShinMagmus said:

T5 - Clear Mind

Here's our third directly inferior power.  Clear Mind is identical to Clarity, but both are weaker than Pain's Enforced Morale which gives a minor +Recharge as well.  The bigger issue is how much worse these powers are than Antidote and Thaw though, which provide damage resistance on top of valuable debuff resistance (to slows) in exchange for not granting +Perception.  I've always thought there was a middle ground here, and that ground was giving both Clear Mind and Clarion the property of minor Resistance to Psy damage.  It makes complete sense with the names of the powers, and it partially patches a current hole in both Empathy and Sonic Resonance.  Crucially: Clear Mind, Enforced Morale, and Clarity are regarded as Dead Powers in your build because they can slot nothing useful, nor is adding slots to them ever useful.  Most people throw in a Recharge IO and that barely makes any difference.  Allowing the player to mule an incredibly useful Unique Resistance IO in these powers is simply giving them parity with Poison and Thermal Radiation.

*Add Resistance on target after use / allow slotting Resist sets / +10% Damage Resistance (Psy) on target (unresistable) for 90s*

 

My main problem with Clear Mind is that it wasn't given the same treatment as Bubbles/Shields. 

Cast on one, all nearby teammate are "Clear Mind"ed as well.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Icelord]

Having mulled over this some more, I really like @ShinMagmus's proposal with the following tweaks:

• Make Clear Mind an AoE like Kinetics has for Increased Density (and proliferate this change to all other Mez protection Support powersets that don't have it already).
• Make Absorb Pain grant a large amount of Absorb instead of being a heal (and if it retains the -HP -Heal on caster, give it +Res or +Absorb to the caster).
• Make the T8 a +RES(All but Psi), which helps Empathy stand out in being the only set that can grant both +DEF and +RES to allies. I'm dropping the +DEF from my previous suggestion as it would be both overpowered and Fortitude already has a +DEF component. I'm also excluding Psi since that's proposed to be added to Clear Mind.
   

Thus the set would look something like this (again, all suggested numbers are for Defender scale):

T1 - Healing Aura
Decrease animation time (also apply to AoE heals in other sets)

 

T2 - Heal Other
No change

 

T3 - Absorb Pain
Changed to large +Absorb, grants caster either +RES(All, 22.5%) or +Absorb

 

T4 - Resurrect
Decrease recharge to 120s

 

T5 - Clear Mind
Made AoE with 30ft radius, grants +RES(Psi, 10%)

 

T6 - Fortitude
No change

 

T7 - Revitalizing Aura
PBAoE(25ft radius), +Recovery(100%), +Regen(250%), 90s duration, 360s recharge, resistance to debuffs

 

T8 - Steadfast Resolve (New power, better name if someone has one)
PBAoE(25ft radius), +RES(All but Psi, 25%), 90s duration, 240s recharge

 

T9 - Adrenaline Boost
No change

[bigfashizzel]

I like these suggestions a lot and I think I have a proposal for Absorb Pain and the T8.

 

Absorb Pain >> Displace Pain:

+Absorb (non-stacking) on allied target, +Res(all) (small amount, 10%?) for 10s on target.

Alternatively, a +Absorb & +MaxHP with maybe something like EndResist or SlowResist.  +maxHP variant could involve taking damage or the self-heal immunity.

 

for the T8, I'd like to see:

PBAoE Buildup.  +50% damage +15% acc for ~5s.

Similar to a mega-shortened duration Overgrowth, still achieves Shin's point of increasing killspeed on teams that don't need support.  Named something like "Inspire".  It would keep Empathy from having abilities that affect enemies while achieving a similar kill-speed boost for a single mob pack.

 

 

[Player2]

Merciful Plea should definitely be a team buff as opposed to an enemy debuff.

 

If making enemies -ToHit is an issue because of damage proc enhancements, just make this a team +Absorb and +Resist.  Force Field and other sets already cover reducing enemies chances of being hit, and Empathy should be about making your allies tougher.

[Gorgar]

If Clear Mind were a toggle, it would encourage teammates to stay near the empath.

[EmperorSteele]

On 2/15/2024 at 11:59 PM, Derek Icelord said:

Having mulled over this some more, I really like @ShinMagmus's proposal with the following tweaks:

• Make Clear Mind an AoE like Kinetics has for Increased Density (and proliferate this change to all other Mez protection Support powersets that don't have it already).

 

One caveat here: ID's mez protection is NOT AoE, only the damage resistance portion.

 

Unless that got changed, but the OG devs were pretty stingy about aoe mez protection until they introduced Clarion.

[Shin Magmus]

32 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

One caveat here: ID's mez protection is NOT AoE, only the damage resistance portion.

 

Unless that got changed, but the OG devs were pretty stingy about aoe mez protection until they introduced Clarion.

Yeah you've got it right, none of the Clear Mind powers apply their mez protection in an AoE.  Applying the good part of ID to everyone is still tedious.

[Derek Icelord]

4 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

One caveat here: ID's mez protection is NOT AoE, only the damage resistance portion.

 

Unless that got changed, but the OG devs were pretty stingy about aoe mez protection until they introduced Clarion.

 

Fair enough. I still think all such powers should be an AoE, however. Applying it to every team mate is tedious, and even worse for leagues.

[Sunsette]

I think this is a great bit of feedback. Your solutions are both comprehensive and well-explained, and take into account both the concept and training the instincts of players.

 

From a meta standpoint, I am a little leery of -res (the fact that it keeps being used as a solution can become a compounding problem of its own) but it's hard to think of other answers that navigate as many concerns about the set successfully. I certainly don't have a better one, and I think this would make a great cornerstone for any dev looks at the subject matter.

[ThatGuyCDude]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:16 PM, Renatos1023 said:

I like the idea of the new power, but I do agree that targeting enemies feels off for Empathy. Since you had it tagged for -Res and -Dam, what if it was just made a team buff instead that did +Dam and +Res, with similar numbers you would get approximately the same effect of dealing more damage and taking less. I'm not sure if there is a proc issue there, but one would think the power could be tagged to not accept them.

What's fascinating about this is that while increasing Damage and Resistance on the player party in theory has the same effect as decreasing them on an enemy, its difference in implementation balances it in such a way that it feels like an entirely different power (which is decidedly a GOOD thing).

[1] Being able to target through the team or league window makes the power easier to use than comparable powers that need an enemy target, fitting Empathy's theme and making the buff a desirable pick.
[2] As the buff is player-based, it carries over from group to group and thus encourages teams to move at a faster pace.  This would increase the appeal of Empathy users in groups, especially those that pair with other 'rushing' player mechanics like Brute Fury.
[3] Given that players are enhancing their powers variably based on builds, it's possible and likely that some players will benefit greatly from the buff and others will cap and receive no bonus at all.  Thus the new power naturally limits itself and stands distinct from similar powers without such limitation.

"Merciful Plea" wouldn't fit as a name for such a power though.  As Empathy is the ability to understand and feel the emotions of others, "Share Rage" might be a more appropriate name for it.

I like this idea and the OP's proposed changes to the power set in general; I believe they would work well to give Empathy more distinction in comparison to Pain Domination and Radiation Emission.  As for the talk of Resurrect giving a defense/resistance boost, I think that's appropriate given that Regeneration (the thematic armor equivalent to Empathy) has a Rez that does essentially the same thing.

[Shin Magmus]

I just think that it's important to understand that +dmg buffs, without understanding how Kinetics works and what endgame teams often end up like, are simply not as effective as -Res debuffs.  If Empathy can't have -Res, then the buff needs to be absurd and do something like give everyone on the team a Fiery Embrace type dmg proc (but Psychic Dmg because of your Empathic mind) that will still matter at the damage cap.  If the set remains all buffs, with no debuffs, then it's going to keep getting compared to Nature Affinity and it's going to keep losing.  I suggested the powers I did so that Empathy is worth consideration, at all, on 4* Advanced Mode teams.

 

A rework that falls short of making the powerset be good enough to be worth considering, is a failed rework.

[Doomguide2005]

     I think any revision needs to stay away from any debuffs on foes.  Further to stay in theme no foes should be required to obtain any buffs/heal/absorb used by an Empath.  No mixed buff/debuffs like Heat Loss or Fulcrum Shift either.  I do not think this necessarily has to mean constantly losing comparisons with NA.

    Still mulling over the suggestions.  I do find several of them interesting,  at least conceptually.  For me the primary ones needing a looking at are Resurrection and Clear Mind though I do think the later is under-rated and under used even in the endgame.  The merging of the Auras is interesting but not sure if I would want to reduce the recharge at the cost of strength particularly with respect to RegenAura portion.  On the otherhand the difference in buffing for 1200+ vs 1600+ on a single-target is probably hard to note in anything short of the hardest content.

[ThatGuyCDude]

On 4/8/2024 at 4:12 PM, ShinMagmus said:

If Empathy can't have -Res, then the buff needs to be absurd and do something like give everyone on the team a Fiery Embrace type dmg proc (but Psychic Dmg because of your Empathic mind) that will still matter at the damage cap.

This is a great alternative.  What's doubly nice about it is that it reinforces Tankers and Brutes because the extra hit would benefit from Gauntlet/Pokevoke taunt, so the extra output provides its own threat mitigation (I *think* bonus hits from Fiery Embrace work that way; I can't imagine why they wouldn't since extra hits trigger enemy retreat).
EDIT: Wait, procs can't initiate other procs, and Fiery Embrace style damage is a proc, so no extra threat generation would come of this approach.  Oh well.

Edited April 10 by ThatGuyCDude
I was wrong about a mechanic

[Aean]

I am not personally a fan of the Tier 8 suggestion both because it goes against Empathy being a strictly ally-focused set and because it makes it close to the already-similar Pain Domination powerset, but even then I think its a reasonable option. Since everyone else is already doing so, I'd propose an alternative of:

 

"Empathetic Link - Ally targeting Toggle skill - Grant an ally protection from -To Hit, -Damage, -Regeneration, -Recovery and increase the power of their secondary effects. Whenever your ally performs an action which consumes endurance, they have a chance to give you a boost to your recharge for a short duration."

 

----

 

...and with that out of the way, I think every other suggestion here is great. These changes seem like they are in theme with what makes the Powerset appealing to players and boosts the overall potency without causing it to encroach on the niches of other power sets. While Empathy isn't useless, I think most people agree its undertuned and these are the sort of changes I hope we eventually see to it.

[AmbiguousOmen]

Hopefully 3 weeks is not too necro, but I didn't want to start a new thread when this one is pretty good.

 

I broadly agree with Shin Magnus's assessment that a lot of Empathy's powers are strictly worse than equivalent powers in other Defender primaries, as if the design basis had been "like Empathy, but with extra effects" for many powers (the rez powers are the clearest example of this, in my opinion).

 

However, while I see the argument that adding a debuff would help, I also share the view that it would not be on brand for Empathy.

 

Here's my stab at it (Defender values):

 

T1 and T2: No changes.

 

T3 - Absorb Pain: Add a +31.25% Damage buff for 15s to the ally that receives the heal. It's the same +Damage to self that is given by Pain Domination's Share Pain, making it proper ally-oriented mirror to that power. Putting yourself at some risk for an ally (mostly mitigated by boosting your regen) is a very nice power fantasy, plus it makes your ally better able to fight off whatever it was that hurt them enough to need the big heal.

 

T4 - Resurrect: Just make it AoE. It's fine for Empathy to have the blandest rez power (no attached buffs or debuffs), but make it the most efficient.

 

T5 - Clear Mind: Keep the single-target mez protection and +perception, but add an AoE +25% resistance to Psionic and Negative Energy. Basically, give it the Increase Density treatment. Protecting your teammates minds from mental and spooky effects is part of what an Empath tends to do in fiction.

 

T6 - Fortitude: No changes.

 

T7/T8 - Recovery/Regeneration Aura: Merge these into Revitalizing Aura. I fully agree with Shin Magnus on this one.

 

New T8 - Glimpse of Hope: This is the space for a new power. I suggest a PbAoE version of Power Build Up: a short duration (12.5s) boost to Damage and To Hit, but also to most of the defensive and control powers that other players may have. This is another source of +damage (together with Fortitude and the improved Absorb Pain), but it also makes Empaths uniquely able to make their allies better at whatever it is that they do. Ideally, I'd also attach a biggish heal to the PbAoE (similar to the T9 from Time Manipulation), so that this power can be used both preemptively as well as as a tide-turner together with Healing Aura, which shares the same targeting. Recharge should be longish (usable about every other fight without enhancements). I genuinely think this would fit well both in the way that Empathy plays, but also in the power fantasy.

 

T9 - Adrenaline Boost: No change.