Make Origins More Relevant

[TheBlindGirl]

 

Wait, so you're saying I did ask for that?

 

I'm saying you're strawmanning in your accusation of strawmannery. Sometimes the expected answer to a question is "no."

 

 

And in your line of work, if someone suggests a feature, that's akin to demanding it?

 

If they're not actually on the team and have no stake in the time and resources the feature will require to produce? Usually, yes. How often do you interact with arbitrarily selected users of your company's products, and how many of those users are ordinary people, who do not themselves represent a company?

 

Actually, all of them (or I guess most of them). Your objections are development-based. Who else should you be talking to?

 

The people who are actually in the thread I am posting to. Making no effort to make realistic suggestions is a waste of both the dev team's time and your own. You could be talking about things that could plausibly be implemented right now instead of chasing things that are both contrary to the game's direction for something like a decade and far harder to implement than anything that's been accomplished in the last seven years, and doing so would leave fewer useless conversations to sift through.

[EggKookoo]

contrary to the game's direction

 

I mean if the relevant part of all your feedback is "that's not what origins are for" you could have just ditto'd one of Vanden's posts and saved us all a lot of time.

[TheBlindGirl]

The relevant part of my feedback is that suggestions that make no effort to be useful to developers are the 99% of suggestions that are useless to developers. The 1% of suggestions that work come from people who care enough to consider the realistic limitations of what can actually be accomplished. i24 code is freely available and fully compatible with Homecoming. If new story arcs are really so easy to create, make them yourself.

[Leogunner]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

So then you're asking people to spend time typing stuff for your amusement then.

 

Get out of here with your entitled BS.  If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.  lol again, nice try.

[TheBlindGirl]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

Quote the post in which I accused anyone of being lazy.

[Leogunner]

How is it any different from current where an artifact or ritual is needed to progress the story and it all just works out without intimate knowledge of the workings?  Your argument crashes into the brickwall that is the already existing content.

 

Because the current content doesn't look at what your origin is and try to make a connection with your character. How is that so hard to understand?

 

Then it's not an argument against the suggestion.  That is, to clarify, bringing up how content assumes your competencies in a piece of origin content in a game that already assumes your competencies in other content.  How is this so hard for you to understand?

 

 

That being said, your argument also presents an opportunity for character growth.  So you've got an example of a character who has no knowledge of magic but has powers granted by magic?  I guess it's time they learn a bit about the complexities of their powers' source along with some rituals101...perhaps they'll strengthen their abilities or learn new ways to utilize their powers (*hint* *hint*).  But if we're to assume that this would be forced upon your characters' backstory when we're talking about the source of where their power comes from, I'd categorize that being a person power-tripping the basic rulesets of the game.  It'd be akin to a guy wearing a technology power suit yet not knowing how to push the power button on a laptop.  Somehow this guy can fine maneuver advanced tech but can't conceptualize power cycling a simple computer?

 

That is an extremely reasonable character concept. Ever heard of Greatest American Hero? That guy fits this concept to a T.

 

Then see the portion of my rebuttal about holding other concepts hostage for a minority power-tripping roleplay.  So because it fits the concept of some character you mention, we always have to build the story for every tech character to assume they are incompetent and thus an outside source is always required to progress the story.

 

This is actually one argument made against villain content, that the play character has less agency and relies on others to make plans for them.  I hope you can see how pandering to the lowest common denominator can have its flaws.  If you choose to take the stance of the lowest common denominator, then there's really no point in further argument.  You can just keep dividing the denominator into more and more fractional portions to eek under any rebuttal to the point of absurdity and forming an argument to illustrate absurdity is going to be purely subjective.

 

Again, how does that support the argument that Origin should matter more?

 

At this point, the arguments you're responding to are in direct response to your previous claims.  To be clear, you've railroaded the argument AWAY from trying to make origins matter toward how story can be origin based/centered.

 

You should really clear THAT point up (likely by dropping it) before further discussion on HOW origins could be focused on.

 

[Leogunner]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

Quote the post in which I accused anyone of being lazy.

 

post: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,5427.msg43849.html#msg43849

 

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

[EggKookoo]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

It's a common troll trick. The details in the proposal wouldn't be taken at face value, but just picked apart for further arguments. In reality, something like this probably needs a small team to collaborate on it, and certainly would need iterations to smooth out bumps and tighten it up.

 

One way to implement something like origin-oriented missions might be to use the radio/newspaper mechanism. No new contacts have to be created. The missions just show up in rotation (disclosure: I don't know how random the missions are, so maybe this is unrealistic). Then it's a matter of deciding what it means to have, say, a "natural" mission. Someone, maybe Justicebeliever, suggested the idea that existing enemies be thematically grouped by origin. Some might be more than one, but all groups should be able to be fit into something. Then the origin mission in question would focus on that group. It would require some copy writing and mission designing for sure (which would require an eye toward "origin genre theming"), and yes that's work that needs to be done. If possible, the devs could even have players create these missions with the AE system to crowdsource it. I dunno if that would work either.

 

If popular, it might warrant more crafted origin mission arcs in the future. By then it would be clear if there's a desire for something like this among the players.

[justicebeliever]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

Quote the post in which I accused anyone of being lazy.

 

post: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,5427.msg43849.html#msg43849

 

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

 

Leogunner - this is a lost cause.  I’ve ignored the poster, because despite multiple attempts at having a meaningful conversation, I was insulted at every turn  You can pursue it of course, but if you are sincerely trying to sway her, it won’t happen.

[Zep]

The idea still would have to be agreed upon before any work could be done on it.

No, it doesn't.

 

Please remember, origin-oriented mission content is just one suggestion.

 

It is a suggestion that involves quintupling the workload for all new content generated under the paradigm, made by people who do not expect to have to do any of that work. Your excuses do not change the work required nor do they broaden the audience for it. Either you plan to do the work yourself or your suggestion is bad.

 

Are you the one that would be doing said work?

 

How do you know it would cause 5x the work anyways?

 

The Secret World (original not legends) had three versions of all the faction arcs -- some story different view point. Same Assets, Same Location -- doesnt have to take 5x or even 3x the work.

[Vanden]

Because you are telling everyone here that the game shouldn't make missions that assume anything about your character.

It doesn't matter why they are telling it, what matters is that they are telling it.

 

If a mission centered on magic is no good because it would assume something about your character then a mission that requires that your character perform any task is no good because it assumes something about your character.

 

If, and this is only an if, in the magic mission you were asked to read a scroll then you seemingly protest because your character isn't a magic scroll reading type of magic character.

Well, that "I was transported from a fantasy realm" Dwarf isn't computer literate.  So what's the difference?  Why protest this so much when it's clear that there are things that can happen in the game that people will have to brush aside?

 

This is an example of the powertripping roleplay that Leogunner is talking about. It's reasonable to assume that a character has a human-level intelligence, that they are familiar with the setting that they inhabit. It's not reasonable to assume that a Magic origin character is the "cast spells and perform rituals from memory" type of Magic character, or that a Science origin character is also some sort of scientist.

 

Aaaand you've lost it. You've assumed something about the character based on nothing more than the origin, and will most likely be wrong in a large amount of cases.

 

What was assumed?

That a magic-based character in Paragon City might try to contact another magic-based character if they think that they could help them with a problem?

That some spellcaster used his abilities and the spell led them to your character?

That some seer might have seen your character as the one that must undertake the mission?

That some other magic-based contact might have told their magic-using friend that you were a good hand?

 

You've assumed that the Magic origin character has intimate knowledge of the mystic arts, or that they have some investment in the magical community. If the contact themself has some kind of magic way of identifying the character as the one who could help, that's fine, but I can't see any reason why it would limit itself to Magic origin characters without the writer just insisting it has to be a Magic character and then railroading the player character.

 

What is the point of these arc descriptions? How do they support the idea that origin should matter in the game? I'm arguing that it shouldn't, and you specifically responded to me, so I think you're arguing that origin should matter, but all you've written here is some plot outlines that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

 

All I have done is suggested that they could make origin-specific arcs that only characters of that origin could play.

Something that would do it's little part to set aside the different characters of different origins.

Something that might encourage people to not just re-roll new toons with different ATs, but to re-roll new toons with different origins.

 

A natural hero would have at least one thing in the game that would play to that origin.  Their own story arc that only natural heroes could do, and that it wouldn't matter if that natural character was Batman or Superman or Captain America.

 

Yes, you suggested they could make arcs. But you didn't write any compelling reason that they would be limited to certain origins. If Batman and Superman alike could easily enjoy the arc, then Green Lantern and Wonder Woman could as well, but they're excluded for some arbitrary reason.

 

Again, how does that support the argument that Origin should matter more?

 

Again, if every character has even one exclusive story arc based on origin then origin matters more.

 

Yes, it makes origin matter more. It's not up for question that adding arcs exclusive to origins would make origin matter more, obviously it would. It doesn't, however, offer any reason why origin should matter more, how adding these exclusive arcs is a good idea.

 

I never said anything to that effect.

 

Other people have.

 

It would be better to say that in response to them, then, not to me.

 

How is it any different from current where an artifact or ritual is needed to progress the story and it all just works out without intimate knowledge of the workings?  Your argument crashes into the brickwall that is the already existing content.

 

Because the current content doesn't look at what your origin is and try to make a connection with your character. How is that so hard to understand?

 

Then it's not an argument against the suggestion.  That is, to clarify, bringing up how content assumes your competencies in a piece of origin content in a game that already assumes your competencies in other content.  How is this so hard for you to understand?

 

Assuming that your character can function in society is reasonable. Assuming that your character falls into only one or a few subsets of valid concepts under an umbrella that houses many valid concepts is not.

 

That being said, your argument also presents an opportunity for character growth.  So you've got an example of a character who has no knowledge of magic but has powers granted by magic?  I guess it's time they learn a bit about the complexities of their powers' source along with some rituals101...perhaps they'll strengthen their abilities or learn new ways to utilize their powers (*hint* *hint*).  But if we're to assume that this would be forced upon your characters' backstory when we're talking about the source of where their power comes from, I'd categorize that being a person power-tripping the basic rulesets of the game.  It'd be akin to a guy wearing a technology power suit yet not knowing how to push the power button on a laptop.  Somehow this guy can fine maneuver advanced tech but can't conceptualize power cycling a simple computer?

 

That is an extremely reasonable character concept. Ever heard of Greatest American Hero? That guy fits this concept to a T.

 

Then see the portion of my rebuttal about holding other concepts hostage for a minority power-tripping roleplay.  So because it fits the concept of some character you mention, we always have to build the story for every tech character to assume they are incompetent and thus an outside source is always required to progress the story.

 

Any mission content written runs the risk of not being appropriate for certain character concepts. My argument against origin-based content is that it immediately becomes innapropriate for 4/5ths of characters. The idea is that in exchange it then becomes much more appropriate for the remaining 1/5th of characters, but the reality is that there's so much variety in even that 1/5th of characters that that benefit never comes to fruition.

 

This is actually one argument made against villain content, that the play character has less agency and relies on others to make plans for them.  I hope you can see how pandering to the lowest common denominator can have its flaws.  If you choose to take the stance of the lowest common denominator, then there's really no point in further argument.  You can just keep dividing the denominator into more and more fractional portions to eek under any rebuttal to the point of absurdity and forming an argument to illustrate absurdity is going to be purely subjective.

 

There's only so much time in the day. Writing for the broadest possible appeal just makes sense.

 

Again, how does that support the argument that Origin should matter more?

 

At this point, the arguments you're responding to are in direct response to your previous claims.  To be clear, you've railroaded the argument AWAY from trying to make origins matter toward how story can be origin based/centered.

 

You should really clear THAT point up (likely by dropping it) before further discussion on HOW origins could be focused on.

 

I'm really not sure what the issue is here? The poster I was responding to responded to my claims that origin shouldn't matter with a bunch of plot outlines for possible origin-based content. It didn't support the argument that such content should exist, it only brainstormed the actual content.

[Herotu]

The. counter to special origins content seems to be that;

1. More freedom is always good, and,

2. By making a character's CHOICE of origin funnel them into exclusive content, the player will miss out on the other origins'' content.

 

But

More freedom is NOT always better. Consider the idea that all Archetypes had freedom to pick all powers. It makes Archetypes redundant. Special, exclusive, content determined by prior decisions is fun because of it's exclusivity. It makes a particular character feel special, with some element that many other characters can't be/do.

 

It makes characters more variable and hence interesting.

 

[EggKookoo]

Writing for the broadest possible appeal just makes sense.

 

Curious, given this statement, what your position on new powersets is.

[Herotu]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

[EggKookoo]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

I like the idea. I'm not sure how to make it work mechanically unless you can convert it to a damage type, of which you take extra damage. Which might work, even for "hubris" (Psychic Damage).

[TheBlindGirl]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

Quote the post in which I accused anyone of being lazy.

 

post: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,5427.msg43849.html#msg43849

 

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

 

You will notice the word "lazy" does not actually appear in that post or that sentence. That this is an accusation of anything is your assumption, and it doesn't even particularly make sense.

 

Are you the one that would be doing said work?

 

Are you? You could be. The source code is out there. If it isn't hard, why are you not doing it yourself?

 

The Secret World (original not legends) had three versions of all the faction arcs -- some story different view point. Same Assets, Same Location -- doesnt have to take 5x or even 3x the work.

 

New story arcs available to all origins but with edited text to reflect an origin is a different and far more workable idea than what was being discussed, which very explicitly included using different enemy groups in different missions.

[Leogunner]

 

This is an example of the powertripping roleplay that Leogunner is talking about. It's reasonable to assume that a character has a human-level intelligence, that they are familiar with the setting that they inhabit. It's not reasonable to assume that a Magic origin character is the "cast spells and perform rituals from memory" type of Magic character, or that a Science origin character is also some sort of scientist.

 

I'd more describe the power tripping RPer to more closely resemble the example I quoted from that RP thread.  Power Tripping would be taking advantage of the leniency of the base concepts of the origin system while also disregarding the established rulesets that come with the base premise of the environment you're playing in.  To illustrate what I mean:

 

So you're a magic guy who got his powers from some kind of magic circumstance outside of his control.  Gotcha.

 

And he has no knowledge of magic thus when confronted with a situation of casting some kind of spell, he can't do it off the cuff.  Reasonable.

 

And he also can't be arsed to try to unravel any intricacies of magic despite the source of his power hinging on it as a source.  Hold on, does he not want to improve his powers then?

 

And he'll never need to because his magic will just grow depending on just getting stronger.  Wait, but it's kind of ingrained in magic within the background of CoH that knowledge is power.

At that point, you're starting to power trip as the setting doesn't require the magic guy to be a skilled spell caster with memorized spells but if his power comes from magic, why would he not want to learn how his powers work so at the very least he doesn't screw something up.  But most of all, if he has any aspirations to get stronger, save lives, destroy heroes, get money, etc, why *wouldn't* he want to figure out a simple ritual spell if the outcome can be a better understanding of his own power as well as an outcome that he desires?  At that point, it's not a matter of the game powertripping (not even sure how that would happen) into making your character do stuff out of character but rather the player needing to explain why he can't do something that most in his shoes would.

 

 

 

Assuming that your character can function in society is reasonable. Assuming that your character falls into only one or a few subsets of valid concepts under an umbrella that houses many valid concepts is not.

 

And who did that?  The answer is, both of us.  How can you make that argument without sounding hypocritical?  You had to make up a specific suggestion with specific flaws and then create a specific character concept that doesn't fall under the flawed umbrella idea you concocted.

 

The difference between our perspectives though, is from mine, such a character concept you concocted could just NOT do that specific mission lol

 

 

There's only so much time in the day. Writing for the broadest possible appeal just makes sense.

 

If I were you, I'd question if you're arguing for the broadest appeal rather than just assume you've got what it takes to speak for said broadest appeal.

 

 

[Leogunner]

If someone wants to type out some elaborate suggestion, they will do so of their own volition, not because they need to win some forum debate with someone accusing others of being lazy while they themselves are being equally lazy.

 

Quote the post in which I accused anyone of being lazy.

 

post: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,5427.msg43849.html#msg43849

 

I notice that none of the people suggesting that content be created in such a way that only a small fraction of characters will be able to run it are offering to invest the time and effort necessary to create such intentionally limited content themselves. Isn't that curious.

 

You will notice the word "lazy" does not actually appear in that post or that sentence. That this is an accusation of anything is your assumption, and it doesn't even particularly make sense.

 

Definition - Lazy:

adjective

1.

unwilling to work or use energy.

 

You literally said people advocating the idea are not willing to " invest the time and effort".  That sounds like work and energy. 

 

If you didn't want to call people lazy, then why accuse them of not being willing to put in time and effort?

 

Like I said, get out of here with your BS entitled arguments.  Some might feel it's a waste of effort engaging you but I enjoy taking people's arguments, crushing them into a ball, slam dunking them then Round House kicking said arguments right back in your face.

 

If you're going to argue someone's too lazy to make the kind of suggestions you want, then do it yourself OR keep your passive aggressive quips to yourself lest you get them sent back at you.

 

 

[TheBlindGirl]

Definition - Lazy:

adjective

1.

unwilling to work or use energy.

 

You literally said people advocating the idea are not willing to " invest the time and effort".  That sounds like work and energy. 

 

Digging a canal from California to Virginia would probably require a lot of work and energy. Most people are not digging a canal from California to Virginia. Do you think they're lazy?

[Vanden]

This is an example of the powertripping roleplay that Leogunner is talking about. It's reasonable to assume that a character has a human-level intelligence, that they are familiar with the setting that they inhabit. It's not reasonable to assume that a Magic origin character is the "cast spells and perform rituals from memory" type of Magic character, or that a Science origin character is also some sort of scientist.

 

I'd more describe the power tripping RPer to more closely resemble the example I quoted from that RP thread.  Power Tripping would be taking advantage of the leniency of the base concepts of the origin system while also disregarding the established rulesets that come with the base premise of the environment you're playing in.  To illustrate what I mean:

 

So you're a magic guy who got his powers from some kind of magic circumstance outside of his control.  Gotcha.

 

And he has no knowledge of magic thus when confronted with a situation of casting some kind of spell, he can't do it off the cuff.  Reasonable.

 

And he also can't be arsed to try to unravel any intricacies of magic despite the source of his power hinging on it as a source.  Hold on, does he not want to improve his powers then?

 

And he'll never need to because his magic will just grow depending on just getting stronger.  Wait, but it's kind of ingrained in magic within the background of CoH that knowledge is power.

At that point, you're starting to power trip as the setting doesn't require the magic guy to be a skilled spell caster with memorized spells but if his power comes from magic, why would he not want to learn how his powers work so at the very least he doesn't screw something up.  But most of all, if he has any aspirations to get stronger, save lives, destroy heroes, get money, etc, why *wouldn't* he want to figure out a simple ritual spell if the outcome can be a better understanding of his own power as well as an outcome that he desires?  At that point, it's not a matter of the game powertripping (not even sure how that would happen) into making your character do stuff out of character but rather the player needing to explain why he can't do something that most in his shoes would.

 

I am not a big role player, but I'm pretty sure it's not okay to tell someone what their own character's motivation is.

 

Assuming that your character can function in society is reasonable. Assuming that your character falls into only one or a few subsets of valid concepts under an umbrella that houses many valid concepts is not.

 

And who did that?  The answer is, both of us.  How can you make that argument without sounding hypocritical?  You had to make up a specific suggestion with specific flaws and then create a specific character concept that doesn't fall under the flawed umbrella idea you concocted.

 

The difference between our perspectives though, is from mine, such a character concept you concocted could just NOT do that specific mission lol

Sure, you could just not do it. But the whole point was to write an arc for specific character types. If you wrote an arc that excludes the vast majority of characters, and then large portions of the target audience are just not running it even though you specifically wrote it for them, what was the point?

 

There's only so much time in the day. Writing for the broadest possible appeal just makes sense.

 

If I were you, I'd question if you're arguing for the broadest appeal rather than just assume you've got what it takes to speak for said broadest appeal.

 

I know exactly what I'm arguing for.

[Herotu]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

I like the idea. I'm not sure how to make it work mechanically unless you can convert it to a damage type, of which you take extra damage. Which might work, even for "hubris" (Psychic Damage).

 

Perhaps it could tie in with an Arch_Enemy/nemesis system?

[Black Zot]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

Make everyone deal with the Kheldian problem of randomly adding massively-overtuned enemies to otherwise-normal missions, even when there's no valid reason for said enemies to be there?  Hell NO.

[EggKookoo]

Make everyone deal with the Kheldian problem of randomly adding massively-overtuned enemies to otherwise-normal missions, even when there's no valid reason for said enemies to be there?  Hell NO.

 

There was nothing wrong with the Kheldian thing in basic concept. Overtuned enemies is dealt with by downtuning them, and the whole idea of creating origin-flavored missions or content would solve the other thing about there being no valid reason behind their presence.

 

However, I do think just "Kheldianizing" it is too simplistic to be interesting.

[_NOPE_]

/JRanger

[Leogunner]

Definition - Lazy:

adjective

1.

unwilling to work or use energy.

 

You literally said people advocating the idea are not willing to " invest the time and effort".  That sounds like work and energy. 

 

Digging a canal from California to Virginia would probably require a lot of work and energy. Most people are not digging a canal from California to Virginia. Do you think they're lazy?

 

If I said "Look at all these people suggesting a canal and not putting in the time and effort digging that canal from Cali to Virginia. Isn't that curious.", it implies, yes I'm calling those people lazy.

 

If that wasn't what you were implying, then what were you implying?