Make Origins More Relevant

[EggKookoo]

Help me out here. What kind of /JRanger is this? Is it "it's too much work to add new content to the game"? Is it "it's doomed to fail because people can't agree on what origins mean thematically"? Is it "I fear change"? Is it "how dare you suggest something without a business plan and angel financiers lined up"?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

[_NOPE_]

Help me out here. What kind of /JRanger is this? Is it "it's too much work to add new content to the game"? Is it "it's doomed to fail because people can't agree on what origins mean thematically"? Is it "I fear change"? Is it "how dare you suggest something without a business plan and angel financiers lined up"?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

The /JRanger is because I don't want origins to be more relevant. I want them to remain as decoupled from gameplay as possible, and only existing for RP/flavor.

[Leogunner]

This is an example of the powertripping roleplay that Leogunner is talking about. It's reasonable to assume that a character has a human-level intelligence, that they are familiar with the setting that they inhabit. It's not reasonable to assume that a Magic origin character is the "cast spells and perform rituals from memory" type of Magic character, or that a Science origin character is also some sort of scientist.

 

I'd more describe the power tripping RPer to more closely resemble the example I quoted from that RP thread.  Power Tripping would be taking advantage of the leniency of the base concepts of the origin system while also disregarding the established rulesets that come with the base premise of the environment you're playing in.  To illustrate what I mean:

 

So you're a magic guy who got his powers from some kind of magic circumstance outside of his control.  Gotcha.

 

And he has no knowledge of magic thus when confronted with a situation of casting some kind of spell, he can't do it off the cuff.  Reasonable.

 

And he also can't be arsed to try to unravel any intricacies of magic despite the source of his power hinging on it as a source.  Hold on, does he not want to improve his powers then?

 

And he'll never need to because his magic will just grow depending on just getting stronger.  Wait, but it's kind of ingrained in magic within the background of CoH that knowledge is power.

At that point, you're starting to power trip as the setting doesn't require the magic guy to be a skilled spell caster with memorized spells but if his power comes from magic, why would he not want to learn how his powers work so at the very least he doesn't screw something up.  But most of all, if he has any aspirations to get stronger, save lives, destroy heroes, get money, etc, why *wouldn't* he want to figure out a simple ritual spell if the outcome can be a better understanding of his own power as well as an outcome that he desires?  At that point, it's not a matter of the game powertripping (not even sure how that would happen) into making your character do stuff out of character but rather the player needing to explain why he can't do something that most in his shoes would.

 

I am not a big role player, but I'm pretty sure it's not okay to tell someone what their own character's motivation is.

 

EXACTLY!

 

Now the character has to explain those circumstances.  I think you're confusing the player explaining how his character does this or that with the game railroading the player into making certain decisions.  Doing the ritual in your example isn't a decision, it's an action.  Deciding not to do the ritual and figuring another way is a decision.  If the decision is made to use the ritual, it's then the player's prerogative to explain how that occurs.  If this were a PnP RPG, you'd then have to make some sort of competency roll but for this example, we usually assume a certain outcome.  And this isn't something new or unique to this suggestion.

 

 

Assuming that your character can function in society is reasonable. Assuming that your character falls into only one or a few subsets of valid concepts under an umbrella that houses many valid concepts is not.

 

And who did that?  The answer is, both of us.  How can you make that argument without sounding hypocritical?  You had to make up a specific suggestion with specific flaws and then create a specific character concept that doesn't fall under the flawed umbrella idea you concocted.

 

The difference between our perspectives though, is from mine, such a character concept you concocted could just NOT do that specific mission lol

Sure, you could just not do it. But the whole point was to write an arc for specific character types. If you wrote an arc that excludes the vast majority of characters, and then large portions of the target audience are just not running it even though you specifically wrote it for them, what was the point?

 

If we're being real here, if someone wants to do an arc, they just do it.  You even said yourself you aren't a roleplayer.  Would you exclude yourself from playing a new arc on principle of the story not aligning with a certain concept?  Personally, I probably would but then I'd probably make a character who DOES fit such a type (more a matter of rolling the character rather than creating tho).

 

The discussion has gotten out of bounds now as you're talking incentive before the concept has been fully realized.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

From waht I have gathered back during development there was actually quite a heated debate involving origins and power set access. Sister Psyche wanted for example a Psionic Origin, and for all power sets that did psi dmg to be gated behind this origin. Jack didnt want origins to have any meaningful impact and to be largely a purely flavor choice.

 

Now while Im not quite a fan of the total lock out of power sets behind origin types, what I would love to see is and this is using pretty much the best ingame example we have, our origin to make one of the various side pools inherent alongside fitness.

 

Example magic origin would make the sorcery pool inherent. Now maybe that would be too much I dont know, but I dont feel so as it just means more  power choices to have to divide slots up among which always acts as a natural limiter.

 

Natural could get fighting, some sets using in game abilities to fit science,tech and mutation, and We could if possible finally create the psion origin that Sister Psyche always wanted, and give it a few of the various psi sets lower teir tricks, a psi dart, maybe a psi blade, perhaps a confuse or sleep aoe and lesser drain psyche for the upper tiers, or a psi pet like penny yin has.

 

Just some thoughts to make origins really mean something that I dont think would really be power creep somuch as continue the spirit of power proliferation and even finally make the dream of one of our devs come true by making the origin she always stated as being the actual origin type of her ingame avatar.

[EggKookoo]

The /JRanger is because I don't want origins to be more relevant. I want them to remain as decoupled from gameplay as possible, and only existing for RP/flavor.

 

Understood, even if I truly am baffled at the resistance to making an element of the game more engaging, even if just in concept.

 

Edit: And I'd like to point out that origins currently aren't just for RP/flavor. They limit what enhancements you can slot. Origin already has a mechanical consequence -- I'm just asking to make it an interesting one.

 

Now while Im not quite a fan of the total lock out of power sets behind origin types, what I would love to see is and this is using pretty much the best ingame example we have, our origin to make one of the various side pools inherent alongside fitness.

 

It's interesting but do we run into too many powers? I mean, if we make Sorcery inherent to Magic origins, and I have Tech, I'm assuming I can still get Sorcery when the time comes for me to pick a pool, right? But then I also have my inherent Tech powers (whatever those end up being).

 

But I do like the idea. What if we kept the pools as-is but gave a character some kind of bonus based on origin? So when a Magic origin character uses a power from the Sorcery pool, they're more effective at it?

[justicebeliever]

Now while Im not quite a fan of the total lock out of power sets behind origin types, what I would love to see is and this is using pretty much the best ingame example we have, our origin to make one of the various side pools inherent alongside fitness.

 

It's interesting but do we run into too many powers? I mean, if we make Sorcery inherent to Magic origins, and I have Tech, I'm assuming I can still get Sorcery when the time comes for me to pick a pool, right? But then I also have my inherent Tech powers (whatever those end up being).

 

But I do like the idea. What if we kept the pools as-is but gave a character some kind of bonus based on origin? So when a Magic origin character uses a power from the Sorcery pool, they're more effective at it?

 

+1 for this as well

[_NOPE_]

Edit: And I'd like to point out that origins currently aren't just for RP/flavor. They limit what enhancements you can slot. Origin already has a mechanical consequence -- I'm just asking to make it an interesting one.

 

Well, technically, those other enhancements are just "flavor" as well. The devs could have just made Training Enhancements go all the way up to level 50, and treat them just like IOs are treated. Making the SAME enhancement with five different names for "flavor", is just that... for flavor. There's nothing really unique about those except the icon and the name... they do the same damn thing.

 

A Magic +Recharge SO does the SAME THING a Tech +Recharge SO does... just with a different name. It's telling to me that ParagonWiki doesn't even bother to list the names and icons on the vendor pages, because they are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless in a gameplay sense.

 

As it should be.

[Chance Jackson]

The /JRanger is because I don't want origins to be more relevant. I want them to remain as decoupled from gameplay as possible, and only existing for RP/flavor.

 

Understood, even if I truly am baffled at the resistance to making an element of the game more engaging, even if just in concept.

 

Edit: And I'd like to point out that origins currently aren't just for RP/flavor. They limit what enhancements you can slot. Origin already has a mechanical consequence -- I'm just asking to make it an interesting one.

That is still an RP/Flavor after all the only difference between SOs is flavor text.

[EggKookoo]

Well, technically, those other enhancements are just "flavor" as well. The devs could have just made Training Enhancements go all the way up to level 50, and treat them just like IOs are treated. Making the SAME enhancement with five different names for "flavor", is just that... for flavor. There's nothing really unique about those except the icon and the name... they do the same damn thing.

 

That's not really what I'd call flavor. Mechanics is anything that imposes parameters on decisions or functions, or limits choices or options. Changing my attack color effect is flavor, as it has no mechanical impact. Obviously enhancements in and of themselves are mechanical as they affect functionality. If origins with respect to enhancements were purely flavor, then you could just slot them as you wanted. But the game prevents you from slotting a cross-origin enhancement. It doesn't discourage you from doing so by saying "Hey, you're Science and that's a Magic enhancement. Maybe you should use a Science one." It literally prohibits you from doing so. That's a mechanic.

 

Further, this mechanic is used as a gate for enhancement rate drops. You can only slot some percentage of enhancements that drop, solely due to origin. Again, if origin was purely flavor, you'd be able to slot any enhancement the game gives you into your powers. Not being able to slot the an enhancement due to origin is no less mechanical than not being able to slot one because it's inappropriate for the power. Drop rates are typically considered more of a mechanic than a flavor.

 

Note I'm not saying origins with regard to enhancements is a particularly good mechanic. It's an uninspired or at least incomplete one.

[TheBlindGirl]

 

If that wasn't what you were implying, then what were you implying?

 

Despite claims to the contrary, everyone has demonstrated through action, not words, that the task is too enormous to be worth the trouble.

 

Something you probably could've divined if you were actually reading my posts:

 

Are you? You could be. The source code is out there. If it isn't hard, why are you not doing it yourself?

[EggKookoo]

Despite claims to the contrary, everyone has demonstrated through action, not words, that the task is too enormous to be worth the trouble.

 

Yes, yes. Your opinion has been noted. Thanks.

[TheBlindGirl]

Despite claims to the contrary, everyone has demonstrated through action, not words, that the task is too enormous to be worth the trouble.

 

Yes, yes. Your opinion has been noted. Thanks.

 

It turns out that directly asking someone a question usually prompts them to respond.

[Herotu]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

Make everyone deal with the Kheldian problem of randomly adding massively-overtuned enemies to otherwise-normal missions, even when there's no valid reason for said enemies to be there?  Hell NO.

 

Thanks for stating what you DON'T want to see. It does seem as though you're making a pretty big leap from my suggestion to your idea of how it might be implemented, however.

[Black Zot]

How about this for an idea .. remove origin and replace it with...

 

WEAKNESS

 

Every superhero has one - now how do we make THAT a thing in the game without falling into the two traps that we have with Origins;

 

1. Limiting creativity too much _ note that super heroes have weaknesses varying from the colour yellow, to kryptonite to "hubris".

2. Irrelevant content - hello origin enhancements.

 

Make everyone deal with the Kheldian problem of randomly adding massively-overtuned enemies to otherwise-normal missions, even when there's no valid reason for said enemies to be there?  Hell NO.

 

Thanks for stating what you DON'T want to see. It does seem as though you're making a pretty big leap from my suggestion to your idea of how it might be implemented, however.

 

"Big leap"?  More like "logical first step".  The ONLY time you see a superhero's weakness mentioned in a comic book is when he's about to be screwed over by said weakness.  And as mentioned upthread, the only functional way to implement this mechanically is the Kheldian approach of arbitrarily granting enemies a "screw you" power - be it an attack that slices through your defenses (hello invuln psi hole), or being all-but-immune to your offense (stupidly-high smashing, lethal, or psi resist in lategame enemies).  Works great for a comic book where the writers can BS their way past the problem somehow, but player characters in a video game don't have plot armor to deal with this RNG-you-lose system.

 

You want to see PC weaknesses implemented beyond what's already enforced by the game?  Come up with something that doesn't hose the players and we'll talk.  Oh wait, that eliminates EVERY possible implementation of a weakness system.

[Leogunner]

 

If that wasn't what you were implying, then what were you implying?

 

Despite claims to the contrary, everyone has demonstrated through action, not words, that the task is too enormous to be worth the trouble.

 

I'm afraid to inform you, but no actions have been taken.  Only words.  If by actions, you mean lack of actions, I hope you then understand what that implies.

 

We haven't even came to some kind of consensus on what actions COULD be taken, much less what actions should be taken.

 

Something you probably could've divined if you were actually reading my posts:

 

Are you? You could be. The source code is out there. If it isn't hard, why are you not doing it yourself?

 

What I read from your post was quite a bit of snark.  I'm feeling some pushback from your end.  You became pretty defensive about what subcontext your words had rather than actively backed your words up.  You practically instantly fell back on "don't assume the meaning of my words!!" which is the weakest, most subservient stance you can make (also, read: pointless).

[TheBlindGirl]

I'm afraid to inform you, but no actions have been taken.

 

It is not clear how you could have missed that this is the point.

 

You practically instantly fell back on "don't assume the meaning of my words!!" which is the weakest, most subservient stance you can make (also, read: pointless).

 

Do you not know what subservient means? Because it sounds a lot like you don't know what subservient means.

 

You're trying very hard to sound aloof and superior. It isn't working.

[_NOPE_]

Whoah peeps, let's all calm down and get back to the main point...

 

 

... Which is that origins shouldn't be more relevant to the game play, that is.  ;D

[EggKookoo]

Whoah peeps, let's all calm down and get back to the main point...

 

 

... Which is that origins shouldn't be more relevant to the game play, that is.  ;D

 

Thank you.  :)

 

I mean, for getting us back on track, not about origins. Speaking of, is there a reason you think they shouldn't, aside from some form of "they haven't been up to now"? I mean, I should make it clear that I'm perfectly aware of their lack of historical relevance. I wouldn't have started this thread otherwise.

[Leogunner]

I'm afraid to inform you, but no actions have been taken.

 

It is not clear how you could have missed that this is the point.

 

Which obviously implies, lack of willingness to act = your argument.  That's basically saying because we're lazy is why you're right.

 

You practically instantly fell back on "don't assume the meaning of my words!!" which is the weakest, most subservient stance you can make (also, read: pointless).

 

Do you not know what subservient means? Because it sounds a lot like you don't know what subservient means.

 

You're trying very hard to sound aloof and superior. It isn't working.

 

I don't have to sound superior.  Your opinion is so garbage you're not even willing to stand by it, rather deflect to what a word should mean or how people can't read your mind and divine the context of your argument.  Like I said to your initial point: Get out of here with your entitled opinion. It's garbage lol

 

Whoah peeps, let's all calm down and get back to the main point...

 

 

... Which is that origins shouldn't be more relevant to the game play, that is.  ;D

 

I've always held the belief that most ideas can be made great, you just have to mold them a bit.

 

Basically, there are no absolutes especially when it comes to the fleetness of emotions.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

The /JRanger is because I don't want origins to be more relevant. I want them to remain as decoupled from gameplay as possible, and only existing for RP/flavor.

 

Understood, even if I truly am baffled at the resistance to making an element of the game more engaging, even if just in concept.

 

Edit: And I'd like to point out that origins currently aren't just for RP/flavor. They limit what enhancements you can slot. Origin already has a mechanical consequence -- I'm just asking to make it an interesting one.

 

Now while Im not quite a fan of the total lock out of power sets behind origin types, what I would love to see is and this is using pretty much the best ingame example we have, our origin to make one of the various side pools inherent alongside fitness.

 

It's interesting but do we run into too many powers? I mean, if we make Sorcery inherent to Magic origins, and I have Tech, I'm assuming I can still get Sorcery when the time comes for me to pick a pool, right? But then I also have my inherent Tech powers (whatever those end up being).

 

But I do like the idea. What if we kept the pools as-is but gave a character some kind of bonus based on origin? So when a Magic origin character uses a power from the Sorcery pool, they're more effective at it?

 

Just want to point out that your fear of too many powers was something said by those who opposed fitness being inherent, basically saying they didnt want more temptations to  divide up their slots.

 

So yes you could obviously still take the pools made inherent as chosen pools if wished in my suggestion. Nothing wrong with petty dabblers in the arcane arts;)

 

As always the amount of powers taken in the sub pools,and how we slot them would remain unchanged. It would still be our choice.

 

However I dont think your suggestion is a bad one. It would still require other pools being made for the other origins. Id think that level of work would be more warranted if it was part of my inherents being added suggestion

 

Right now we kind of see that with the staff vet powers, and most still dont bother with them after a few levels.

 

My desire would be to see it become the standard that magic users having some clear magical attacks etc.

 

 

[_NOPE_]

Whoah peeps, let's all calm down and get back to the main point...

 

 

... Which is that origins shouldn't be more relevant to the game play, that is.  ;D

 

Thank you.  :)

 

I mean, for getting us back on track, not about origins. Speaking of, is there a reason you think they shouldn't, aside from some form of "they haven't been up to now"? I mean, I should make it clear that I'm perfectly aware of their lack of historical relevance. I wouldn't have started this thread otherwise.

 

Should power color affect the power's effect? Should red powers do more damage, and white powers add -recharge?

 

Because when that's the same argument that I could make for origins. If they have an effect, then other things like power color should have an effect. A LONG time ago, the Devs decided that certain things that were cosmetic shouldn't affect game play. They made origins largely cosmetic with their design choices. We should follow their lead, IMHO.

[TheBlindGirl]

Which obviously implies, lack of willingness to act = your argument.  That's basically saying because we're lazy is why you're right.

 

Digging a canal from California to Virginia would require people to have a willingness to act. Most people are not digging a canal from California to Virginia. Do you think they're lazy?

 

I don't have to sound superior.

 

You're putting an awful lot of effort into it.

 

Your opinion is so garbage you're not even willing to stand by it,

 

Despite their lingering bitterness - to their own insistence on having a hostile argument on the subject, I guess - everyone has silently conceded that my assessment of the plausibility of creating new story arcs is accurate and moved on to talking about other possibilities. Even you aren't actually discussing the creation of new story arcs anymore.

 

So, no, actually. The opposite of that.

[EggKookoo]

Should power color affect the power's effect? Should red powers do more damage, and white powers add -recharge?

 

Because when that's the same argument that I could make for origins. If they have an effect, then other things like power color should have an effect. A LONG time ago, the Devs decided that certain things that were cosmetic shouldn't affect game play. They made origins largely cosmetic with their design choices. We should follow their lead, IMHO.

 

I'd be fine with making origins actually cosmetic. Not as fine as I'd be with keeping them (at least somewhat) mechanical and making them more interesting. My beef with them is they're kind of neither and both.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

So lets  look at what the current origins powers are and do.

 

Magic is a little rune attack.

 

Natural is a throwing knife.

 

Tech is a stun dart

 

science is a tranq dart

 

and mutation is basically poisoned  capsules not unlike something we see batman use.

 

The fact is all of these could be used by anyone of any originm with maybe the exeption of the magic one if we say you need to know magic first, rather then see it as some kind of magic item.

 

They are all basically throwing devices, no different from grenades, and the envenomed dagger, or the various throwing attacks found in power sets.

 

Considering we are not allowed to respec our origin it suggest to some extent devs did want it to have a meaningful impact. the bits of flavor lore on SOs does add to that sense of difference but not much.

 

While I get that some are not into the idea and want it meaningless. That was basically the view of Jack the tyrant Emmert who over road and stamped out everything he didnt like and did so while saying you dont know better then me so thank me for knowing better then you.

 

Currently SOs are utter trash next to IOs. have been since IO sets happened. So their flavor has been virtually lost as most of us never read it anymore even in passing.

 

So what about this, instead temp power vendors similar to P2W, that carry things in the same line as our origin powers, or even  higher teir versions of our origin power we can sink inf in to upgrade?

 

 

[TheBlindGirl]

 

While I get that some are not into the idea and want it meaningless. That was basically the view of Jack the tyrant Emmert who over road and stamped out everything he didnt like and did so while saying you dont know better then me so thank me for knowing better then you.

 

Hitler ate sugar. This is not an indictment of sugar.

 

So what about this, instead temp power vendors similar to P2W, that carry things in the same line as our origin powers, or even  higher teir versions of our origin power we can sink inf in to upgrade?

 

This could work, but if origins can't be respecced, a lot of people are going to be faced with a character who would've made more sense as a different origin had they known in advance which powers would be associated to what, and now have to rebuild the character from level 1. Nothing will make a system unpopular more quickly than inconvenience.