The Warshade Wishlist

[Rimerat]

Hey, I've been maining a WS (mostly tri-form) for a very long time and I've heard there might be Kheldian changes coming in the future.

 

Personally, I feel that WS is in an OK place and doesn't need many significant improvements; but it could do with some QOL. Here's some ideas I have. If you have any wishes, feel free to contribute! Please note that these are all my ideas from playing WS a lot and I know not all of them are going to be popular (even among other Khelds).

 

 

1) The shapeshifting conundrum aka 'the big barrier to entry': Right now I feel it best to tell any new player and some experienced players who want to main a shade to turn around and reconsider. The biggest culprit? Form stance dancing. To be able to use a non-human WS build effectively, you need to be very comfortable with the bind and macro system.

 

 - A) Activating a Warshade power out of a form could instantly turn you into that form and use the power. Yes there's already ways to sort of do this with macros, but that's kind of the point.
 - B) Automatically switch the first tray to power tray 4 or 5 for Nova and Dwarf forms respectively and populate those trays with the powers of those forms.
 - C) Or just give human WS some big buffs (see below) so the advanced stuff isn't a big gatekeeper.

 

2) Human form WS is pretty lackluster. This is due to a combination of factors. No status protection (without having trollers or doms on your team). Low base damage modifiers COMBINED with a low +damage cap. Primary powers leave some to be desired. Mediocre inherent that only has an effect when you're in a team and some team compositions can do little to nothing for you (will rant about this later).

 

 - A) Hold and stun protection could be easily baked into Eclipse or slapped into one of their shields. I don't think this would be a significant buff.
 - B) The base damage modifiers could be tweaked a bit OR the +damage cap raised a little.
 - C) Primary power woes: Gravimetric Snare: a single-target DOT immobilize. Maybe make it a small AOE with increased rech and/or reduced damage? Gravitic Emanation: Worse damage than its Nova counterpart in exchange for KB and stun. IMO the KB is more a malus than a boon, but many would disagree. Unchain Essence: Cool concept, but it requires a corpse to use and thus often goes neglected because of its 3+ second cast time. My idea might be a bit wacky, but why not combine Dark Extraction and Unchain? Reduce the nuke base damage a little and summon a ball. Maybe really overpowered, but it sounds cool.

 

3) Dark Sustenance is not very good. You want to solo? Your team isn't nearby? You want to play with other EATs? Get boned. It's one of those things that sounds great on paper, but in practice I'm not sure it adds up. These ideas could work in general for PBs as well.

 

- A) Make Dark Sustenance give a bonus at all times regardless of present teammates. That bonus can then be altered by the presence of nearby teammates. Example: Solo, you have 28% increased recharge (JUST USING RECHARGE AS AN EXAMPLE, it could be any distribution of stats). 4 for each missing teammate. I think the theme for Dark Sustenance is great, so in my opinion the 'solo' effect should be a little worse than the benefits teaming gives you.
- B) Alter or buff the effect other EATs give. Maybe 5% slow resist and 2% recharge?
 

 

I'm probably missing a bunch of stuff but I figure this will be a good start. If you have more to add or just want to roast my ideas, feel free!

Edited February 25 by Wiseguy

[Laucianna]

Heya hun!

For point 1 I would defo say A is the better option, option B would mess with people who don't like to swap bars when they shapeshift and C would just discourage shapeshifting on the shapeshifting AT ❤️ 

For point 2 similar to option C of the last one, in discourages Shapeshifting on the Shapeshifting AT, there's no doubt the numbers and powers need to be looked at but I feel that they need to be looked at in a way the encourages shapeshifting more then staying in 1 form for too long.

For point 3 I am sorta with you, the inherent for both PBs and WSs is offensive to say the least 😄 Tankers get one that helps them taunt, Scrappers get one that helps their damage, the Shapeshifting AT gets one that gives (Sometimes pointless buffs like +res or +damage) ONLY if you have a team 😄

But those are just my opinions ❤️ Not saying they're right but wanted to throw my hat into the ring!

 

 - Lauci x

[Timeshadow]

While I definitely like the concept of having form-specific powers automatically switch the character into their requisite form, I don't think the engine supports this. Maybe my binds are just out of date but I have to press the bound key twice, once to drop the form and a second time to fire off whatever power I want. My understanding is that's a hard technical limitation that can't be bypassed but I could be wrong.

I have to agree with @Laucianna on the other proposed solutions to this. Frankly, I'm not sure complexity as a barrier to entry is necessarily a bad thing, provided that complexity isn't arbitrary and serves to give the AT a unique identity. I'd say Khelds definitely do this. You can play one in a more simplistic manner without being gimped but you won't be capable of the more high end feats that experienced players can pull off. IMO, that's less an issue than it is good management of the skill floor/ceiling that tends to be inherent in RPG shapeshifters.

As for the lackluster WS Human form, I think that's another example of what distinguishes WS from PB. A PB can stay in Human form their whole career if they want. The only thing they lose by doing so is utility. WS is a different design philosophy altogether. All three forms are intended to be parts of a whole, giving the AT a more fluid playstyle than its counterpart. Do you have to get good at the form dance? Yeah, but that's the point. If someone wants to play Human-only without impacting the AT's core gameplay loop, PB is right there. 

The inherent is a problem, for sure. It's useless solo and, depending on team comp, might as well not exist in groups either. I'm not entirely sure what to do with it but my immediate thought is to have it buff you based on the number of mobs in your immediate vicinity. Maybe have different enemy classes (Minion, Lt, Boss, etc.) provide the different types of buffs? I dunno. Just a thought.

 

[SaxyGuitar]

I would like to see an inherent rework. I like playing my warshade from time to time, and I forgot that I even have it.

 

I'd personally like the inherent to do different things depending on what stance I'm in.

 

If it stayed as teammates buff it could be cool if pb also gave their buffs to the team as well as them to stay with the protection theme, and ws maybe get stronger buffs for themselves to keep with their feeding theme. Either way something for playing solo would be a nice add on. Make it like the Defender where there's a couple of stacks and it gets smaller each teammate you have.

[Rimerat]

Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to address a misconception. Maybe misconception is a bad word?

 

It seems like there's this idea that PBs are human and WS are shapeshifters.

 

- Both ATs get access to shapeshift forms and may use them effectively.

- Both ATs have more or less the same description in the AT character creation screen.

- Mechanically, both ATs get various bonuses while in human form.

- Mechanically, both ATs get attacks that may be used in human form.

 

So please, enlighten me. Why does human WS need to suck?

[Rimerat]

To clarify, I happily play as a tri-form and love the stance-dancing playstyle, but it's not for everyone. I don't think making the two ATs uniques needs to involve handicapping one of their playstyles. It's one way of approaching it, sure. Not sure I agree with it though.

[Laucianna]

28 minutes ago, Wiseguy said:

Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to address a misconception. Maybe misconception is a bad word?

 

It seems like there's this idea that PBs are human and WS are shapeshifters.

 

- Both ATs get access to shapeshift forms and may use them effectively.

- Both ATs have more or less the same description in the AT character creation screen.

- Mechanically, both ATs get various bonuses while in human form.

- Mechanically, both ATs get attacks that may be used in human form.

 

So please, enlighten me. Why does human WS need to suck?

It's not listed as the shapeshifting AT but that is what makes us unique, otherwise we are sentinels with melee damage pretty much, I'm not saying you can't play Human only Kheldians however that shouldn't be the focus of the rework imo ❤️

 

 - Lauci x

[Rimerat]

So the consensus is: Warshade human form needs to suck to make PBs different from WS.

 

OK.

 

I hope the team doesn't agree with this philosophy. I'm confident they can come up with some interesting ways to keep them unique without hamstrining one of the ATs.

[Laucianna]

26 minutes ago, Wiseguy said:

So the consensus is: Warshade human form needs to suck to make PBs different from WS.

 

OK.

 

I hope the team doesn't agree with this philosophy. I'm confident they can come up with some interesting ways to keep them unique without hamstrining one of the ATs.

That's not what I'm saying at all? Both WarShade and PeaceBringer forms are not great but you are purposefully missing out on what gives us our utility, and I don't want either PeaceBringer or WarShade human only forms to be as good as Tri form as that is not what the AT is about, like asking for melee only Blasters to be as good as Blasters that use both ranged and melee, but that is just my opinion hun ❤️ You did ask us to be honest did you not?

[runchbox]

I'd like to see WS with some CC prot, either on eclipse or something else. I'd like to see stygian circle changed to something more like drain psyche from psionic assault (dominators) or psionic manip (blasters) cuz as it stands Stygian circle is fun but useless in single target AV fights or the like. The -regen from a drain psyche style power would also be lore accurate! Also obviously fixing Changeling while giving damage equal to it (in terms of Trapdoor and Pylon tests).

 

Another thing I'd like but is a bit more out there and less plausible is if Mires and Eclipse gave a special buff from AVs or elite bosses. So when you mire'd an AV it gave a special damage buff and eclipse gave a bigger resistance buff. I doubt the game is coded to do this but it would be a nice thing to maintain effectiveness against single target threats.

 

So yeah, tldr; CC prot and better functionality in single target situations.

 

Oh, another thing, don't remove forms, but just like bio, make it so we can maintain human form when 'transforming' so we can still stance dance (fun part of the class) but not take on different forms. Still get the flying and jump buffs from nova/dwarf, but for the people that don't necessarily appreciate those forms or want a 'human only' type of character but still being able to stance dance. Canonically, four tentacles pop out of the kheldian's back they can use to fight with. Not asking for something crazy like that as I'm sure animating something like that would be a pain, but just being able to transform without actually taking on the forms would be great.

Edited February 25 by runchbox

[Doomrider]

The problem with wishlists, is they end up being some real pie in the sky type discussions and any serious talk on how to address issues within the AT design never actually get touched on.

It should not be about what we WANT, but rather what the AT NEEDS relative to the current state of the game.

The issues with the AT are many.

- ST Damage tiering is extermely out of date. We literally have 3 attacks with low damage identical DPA's. Base recharges need to change with slight changes to animation times to improve DPA's for Bolt/Eye/Blast so their damage tiers are more comparabe to other modern blast sets.
- Essence Drain doesn't even follow the Damage Formula currently, it's damage scale is erroneously set to 1 so it does 47 base damage for 15 endurance spent on a 15 sec base recharge.
That is some of the worst endurance to damage ratio on Single Target attack in the entire game. This is basically Dark Melee Siphon Life pre-buff.
- Mez protection is an issue, regardless of your stance on it. One of the top pain points for new Shades I hear is getting shut down by mez on what otherwise should feel like an armored AT.
VEATS have mez protection AND copious amounts of defense which naturally already lets you avoid incoming mezzes but the damage resistance based cosmic alien beings can be shutdown by a mag 1 stun. It makes ZERO sense. Dwarf form as a break free barely worked when we were all running on SO's but that idea was flawed from the get go.
- So many powers do the same thing. Inherent gives damage resistance, shields give damage resistance, Eclipse gives damage resistance. It's ridiculous.
- Nova's offensive advantage thrives in the early game and dies in a fire by mid game. It's 45% damage bonus isn't even baked into the form, it cuts into our already small damage cap.
And yes before you say, it's ranged damage scalar is 1.25 but none of that matters if Nova Detonation and Dark Detonation do the same DPA due to animation differences. The offensive advantage is barely there over human.
- Powers like Sunless Mire/Eclipse need to be front loaded so the first target struck gives the largest bonus, with subsequent targets struck giving a smaller bonus there after. This is how current Soul Drain works post Dark Melee buff. It would lessen WS reliance on target saturation immensely.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Us vets who have been playing Shades forever have gotten around this but it's an absolute minefield of noob traps for the uninitiated. 
The class can remain complex without coming with a laundry list of caveats and loop holes for players to jump through when being introduced to the AT.

 

Edited February 26 by Doomrider

[GM Crumpet]

I'll preface this by saying I have no idea what the devs plan to do to khelds. I do know they consider them weaker than they should be, and understand that the changeling exploit is for a lot of people the only way to make them comparable with other AT's. It's why they walked back the exploit fix they had in place because extensive playtesting showed it nerfed khelds to an unacceptable degree. Whatever changes they make they want to make sure khelds are better, and not make any changes that are going to screw up the AT for people.

 

As  relative newcomer to khelds I find them endless fun. I'm busier than a cat in a room full of rocking chairs and I'm fully aware that I'm not playing mine to their full potential. Lauci helped me to get a playstyle and sort out my slotting, and I do feel really powerful against most enemies now I'm level 50 incarnate. I personally prefer WS to PB, but I'm not knocking PB's, they are just a different feel and I prefer the concept and powers of a WS.

 

There are some really good suggestions on here and even the ones I'm not a fan of are well thought out. I do hope the devs pay attention to the kheld players, it's obvious a lot of thought has gone into the reasoning behind the suggestions 

[FlammeFatale]

20 hours ago, Wiseguy said:

- A) Activating a Warshade power out of a form could instantly turn you into that form and use the power. Yes there's already ways to sort of do this with macros, but that's kind of the point.

 

I like this one. I posted the same idea inadvertently without  having read your post.

 

Else, as far as the inherent is concerned, why not give small buffs based on missing ATs in the team, rather than today's opposite? 1) This would help solo play. 2) No one needs extra buffs in a team setting. 3) This is probably easy to code.

 

Now to be frank, as much as I like Kheldians, my WS was my main back on live, I think some specific powersets in some ATs are much more in need of a change than kheldians.

 

Maybe it is only me, but I feel the page 7 patch, which increases some enemy groups difficulty, has widened performance disparity between powersets. My stronger characters remain unaffected by the patch, while my weaker characters feel the increased difficulty. My kheldians are mid-tier performers and do not notice any increase in difficulty. My VEATS which were already extremely strong are buffed, WTF?

 

We have a situation, unchanged strength and weaker weakness, which is the opposite of balance.

 

This is not a criticism of the dev team, which are a small group of volunteers working for free. They can only do and test so much. But I think, since they have limited resources, these type of things should be prioritized compared to changing kheldians for the sake of it.

 

[Whitest Light]

I've been away a little bit but my biggest gripe is the "Knockback tax" in most of the PB powers requiring Sudden Acceleration. I have 4-5 slots devoted to it because Knockback actively hurts the rest of my AoEs. I'm not even talking about team play others complaining. If all PB powers turned into Knockdown, I would gain a ton of slots back (which are a premium for all Khelds) or be able to slot them better.

 

Second, Cosmic Balance is mostly useless at the endgame. I'm already capped on resistances, damage is a drop in the bucket, mez protection is sort of nice but I manage just fine without it, etc. I know what it was intended to do back in the day when it was first introduced but it's completely lackluster compared to some of the others that have been revamped. I don't mind it being tied to teammates but the bonuses need to be relevant. +Defense, +Recharge, +Endurance, etc. would be far more productive. 

 

Lastly, only thing I feel my PB really lacks is single-target damage. There's just not a great attack chain for ST when I-Strike has a long animation and there's no "filler" after Radiant Strike. I'd kill for an additional melee attack in lieu of Gleaming Bolt (that also transfers into Dwarf). I end up using Dawn Strike and Photon Seekers in my attack chain because they're the only things that seem to do chunk damage. Beating an AV or other hard target is an exercise in endurance more than anything. 

 

 

[Purrfekshawn]

First of all fixing existing bugs - for instance - missing Taunt on Warshade's Black Dwarf Mire power (Peacebringer equivalent PBAoE HAS a Taunt).

[EnjoyTheJourney]

 

 

Hopefully a broad-based effort to look at resistances to debuffs will take place, given that kheld defenses will probably remain resistance-based. Also, hopefully, mez protection that works across all their forms will be given to khelds. Neither of these things would make khelds overpowered. Instead, they would just make khelds more fun to play. 

 

On a related note, some ATs have inherents that really seem to fit well with their AT. Punchvoke for tanks, defiance for blasters, crits for scrappers, and so on. Those inherents are usually attached to particularly popular ATs; that's probably not an random association.

In contrast, for khelds their inherent that doesn't do anything while soloing and is effectively random in its benefits, ignoring potential synergies between the forms that might arise from having more than one of them available to the same character. Kheldian inherents seem unusually and perhaps even uniquely bad among all AT inherents, which perhaps makes kheldian inherents a good candidate for "from the ground up" revision. 

The other points Doomrider raises are also important, especially about damage given the premium placed on bringing damage to a group. But, at least for me the three points above stand out for how changing them would make playing khelds more appealing. 

[tidge]

I like the human only Starless Step, and I kinda think it should be available in Dwarf Form as I find the Black Dwarf Step power to be mediocre in comparison.

 

It would be nice (unbalanced?) to have all the human only teleport powers available in all the forms.

 

The only other things that feel like rough edges are the Endurance costs outside of Squid form.

[Timeshadow]

On 3/16/2024 at 3:48 AM, Purrfekshawn said:

First of all fixing existing bugs - for instance - missing Taunt on Warshade's Black Dwarf Mire power (Peacebringer equivalent PBAoE HAS a Taunt).

 

Wait. Is this a bug? I've always thought it was intentional.

[GM Crumpet]

On 3/21/2024 at 1:20 PM, Timeshadow said:

 

Wait. Is this a bug? I've always thought it was intentional.

I couldn't say if it's a bug or not. I lean towards intentional as a bug implies it should have it but it's not working. It's never had it as far as I know and certainly doesn't have it now.

[Timeshadow]

3 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

I couldn't say if it's a bug or not. I lean towards intentional as a bug implies it should have it but it's not working. It's never had it as far as I know and certainly doesn't have it now.

 

Ok. That's what I thought. Had me questioning my 16 years of play time for a second there 😅

[GM Crumpet]

5 hours ago, Timeshadow said:

 

Ok. That's what I thought. Had me questioning my 16 years of play time for a second there 😅

Plus looking at the enhancements it can take there is nothing to say it takes a taunt enhancement 

[twozerofoxtrot]

I can't believe I'm saying this because it's incredibly petty and I try to stay above these kinds of things but...

 

It would be pretty messed up if Kheld inherents got a rework and VEAT inherent was left as is after their rework.

 

Either both Epic AT categories should have their inherents improved, or none. As it is, the Kheld inherent is already more visibly impactful than the VEAT one. 

 

Well, in any sort of groups, atleast.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23 by twozerofoxtrot
Spelling

[Laucianna]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

I can't believe I'm saying this because it's incredibly petty and I try to stay above these kinds of things but...

 

It would be pretty messed up if Kheld inherents got a rework and VEAT inherent was left as is after their rework.

 

Either both Epic AT categories should have their inherents improved, or none. As it is, the Kheld inherent is already more visibly impactful than the VEAT one. 

 

Well, in any sort of groups, atleast.

 

 

 

 

I mean VEATs did just get some updates and HEATs were left out?

[twozerofoxtrot]

4 hours ago, Laucianna said:

I mean VEATs did just get some updates and HEATs were left out?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Often when something gets a major rework, that's it for them for a while. We shouldn't realistically expect another major update for VEATs for years, if ever.

 

But they've left the terrible VEAT inherent completely untouched. 

 

If HEATs get their arguably somewhat better inherent buffed during their balance pass, I feel it would be manifestly unfair. 

[Laucianna]

38 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

Yes, exactly.

 

Often when something gets a major rework, that's it for them for a while. We shouldn't realistically expect another major update for VEATs for years, if ever.

 

But they've left the terrible VEAT inherent completely untouched. 

 

If HEATs get their arguably somewhat better inherent buffed during their balance pass, I feel it would be manifestly unfair. 

But using that exact logic Kheldians should of been looked at in the same patch? So it's unfair to Kheldians when they finally get their long needed rework to have half of the dev team working on another AT 😄