Should there be an Echo: Mercy Island?

[ZamuelNow]

I present this as a question because of I know it can be argued both ways.  "Oh it's just a villain zone" I figure a lot of people will argue.  The stronger argument is that, in comparison to Atlas Park, not as much has drastically changed with the geometry and that changes are in the enemy spawn placement, hospital location, and starting point.  Yet, what did change was the whole vibe of the zone.  Progressing from an Arachnos base across a destroyed to the city in the Mercy neighborhood worked for the whole Darwinism thought process of Lord Recluse.  And the layout is designed with that in mind.  If you follow the main roadway out of Fort Darwin you eventually come to a point roughly at location [-1980.4 96.0 -1971.4] and can gaze at the clock tower.  It's the center of the island and the road is more destroyed coming from  the Mercy neighborhood.  The other alteration is the music.  The new music is "good" from a composition standpoint but it leans on the gloomy atmosphere that Mercy doesn't need help with.  The post I21 music is a departure from the primarily rock theme the Rogue Islands use and did away with the the musical piece that's the source of the villain mission clear music.

 

Creating an echo creates a new opportunity for badges.  It's odd that the clock tower is a noteworthy location but it doesn't have an exploration badge.  There's other interesting points of interest not covered by exploration badges in the zone like the areas where people have fished sharks.

[Lunar Ronin]

If possible, I'd like an Echo: Mercy Island zone, yes.  

[Lockely]

Ideally, I'd actually prefer OG Mercy to be restored but with the updated mission arcs. Just change re-taking Fort Darwin to kicking Longbow out of Fort Cerberus. The entire flow of the zone was ruined with i21 and it's definitely made new players turned off from Redside.

[Frozen Burn]

There is no content in Echo Zones.  So, if you make an Echo: Mercy... the whole vibe and feel of the old Zone (which I *DO* prefer to the current version and wished they revert back to like @Lockely stated) it is all still lost because you can't play through it.  All you get is a chance to make 9 new badges - 8 explores and an accolade for getting them all.   

 

Now, I love me some badges and always want more.... but I really don't see a purpose or use for an Echo: Mercy.  The existing Echo zones were created since they held badges/plaques tied to accolades and there was no room to move them into the newer version.  Eventually, some were moved out of Echo: Atlas and Echo: Faultline... but starting an Echo just to create new badges, I don't think it will happen.  But if it does... great - more badges!

 

[ZamuelNow]

8 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

The existing Echo zones were created since they held badges/plaques tied to accolades and there was no room to move them into the newer version.

 

I could be wrong but I thought the Echo zones were made due to major changes to zone geometry (or outright revamps like Rikti Crash Site -> Rikti War Zone).

[Lunar Ronin]

23 minutes ago, ZamuelNow said:

 

I could be wrong but I thought the Echo zones were made due to major changes to zone geometry (or outright revamps like Rikti Crash Site -> Rikti War Zone).

 

It's both.  Echo: Galaxy City was made due to badges and plaques.  The others are, AFAIK, due to major changes.

[gabrilend]

this is all I want ❤️❤️❤️ 

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, ZamuelNow said:

 

I could be wrong but I thought the Echo zones were made due to major changes to zone geometry (or outright revamps like Rikti Crash Site -> Rikti War Zone).

 

Yes, the live zones were changed with updated textures/geometry (Atlas, RCS, and DA) and progression of story/lore (Faultline, Galaxy, RCS, and DA)... the Devs COULD have not created the Echoes, and just put all badges/plaques back in a proper place for continuing on with existing accolades and such, but for some reason, they didn't at the time - too time consuming? or too difficult for changing lore with new zones?  I don't know. 

 

But eventually, they did change up the Echoes of Atlas, Faultline and RCS so you didn't have to go there any more for explore badges and plaques for the accolades.  However, we still do need to go to Echo: Galaxy and Echo: DA.  

 

Before the game shutdown, ALL zones were going to get the geometry overhaul to Praetorian standards like they did with Atlas.  I don't think they'd create an Echo of all the zones just because they updated the look or changed buildings around. 

 

That's why I don't think they'll make an Echo of Mercy.  If they do - great!  More badges!  ...i hope.  But I don't see a real need for it.  They ACTUAL need is to just revert the zone back to the way it was so you get that progression with the story of Breakout and fighting your way through muck and mire to get to the safety of Archnos' fort.  🙂   

[gabrilend]

17 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

They ACTUAL need is to just revert the zone back to the way it was so you get that progression with the story of Breakout and fighting your way through muck and mire to get to the safety of Archnos' fort.  🙂   

 

YES - someone gets it

 

it's like... "Hey, we broke you out, and now we're throwing you in the trash. Figure it out. If you're worthy, you'll find us, and we can do great things together. Terrible things... but great."

 

Currently, it's more like... "Greetings adventurer, I see you've completed the tutorial. Please proceed down this street to where the massive pile of spandex-clad do-gooders are loitering around doing nothing of value. Once you've finished with them, you'll find more things to do outside the starting town. Good luck! Don't forget to be evil!"

[gabrilend]

If you want additional discussion on this topic, check out this post I made two years ago:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/39551-i-miss-the-old-mercy-island/

[ZamuelNow]

It'll take me a bit but I'll work through the other thread.  Though I've glanced and seen some comments about the content being the same but there were some mechanical differences.

 

But ignoring that, I wonder if there's some sort of middle compromise to figuring out a reversal versus a modification of the zone.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, ZamuelNow said:

It'll take me a bit but I'll work through the other thread.  Though I've glanced and seen some comments about the content being the same but there were some mechanical differences.

 

But ignoring that, I wonder if there's some sort of middle compromise to figuring out a reversal versus a modification of the zone.

All the original content from the original Mercy Island is maintained in current Mercy Island, just re-organized for where the contacts are and where some of the missions take you. Mechanically, the order of progression through the zone is re-arranged, which is what most of the complaints are, and a phase shifting area was added. Other than that, it adds a few new arcs.

[gabrilend]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

All the original content from the original Mercy Island is maintained in current Mercy Island, just re-organized for where the contacts are and where some of the missions take you. Mechanically, the order of progression through the zone is re-arranged, which is what most of the complaints are, and a phase shifting area was added. Other than that, it adds a few new arcs.

 

That's not true, Rudra. The content has been overwritten and replaced with Longbow spawns.

 

In addition, the "home base" has been changed to be in the center of the zone. This makes the island feel smaller.

 

Also, the fantasy has been altered. The original fantasy was better designed.

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

All the original content from the original Mercy Island is maintained in current Mercy Island, just re-organized for where the contacts are and where some of the missions take you. Mechanically, the order of progression through the zone is re-arranged, which is what most of the complaints are, and a phase shifting area was added. Other than that, it adds a few new arcs.

 

That's not true, Rudra. The content has been overwritten and replaced with Longbow spawns.

 

In addition, the "home base" has been changed to be in the center of the zone. This makes the island feel smaller.

 

Also, the fantasy has been altered. The original fantasy was better designed.

All the original missions and the contacts that give them are still in Mercy Island. The contacts are in different places now and the missions use different doors, but they are still there. You still have Longbow, Snakes, RIP, Arachnos, and the Infected. So all the groups you faced in original Mercy Island are still there too. Where they are on the island and to what extent, yes, that has changed. Where you start on the map and the order in which you move through the island is different, yes as well. The comment you are quoting even says as much. So no, the content has not been overwritten, it has been moved. It is all still there, but you access it from a different location on the map now.

[ZamuelNow]

After looking around the zone some more and looking at the other thread, Mercy Island has two specific groups of things changed in that some of it is the subjective feel of things and some of it is the actual mechanics.

 

Subjectively, the feel of things is what brought me to create the thread.  Even though I played during I21, the overwhelming majority of my villains were created before then.  "Why does Mercy feel wrong" is what led me to make this thread, especially after noticing I was getting nostalgia as I moved through Port Oakes and Cap Diable.  Feel/subjectiveness is the harder argument to argue due to people simply being different.  There's two arguments I've seen that have some merit.  The first is the concept of not going backwards and instead progressing the plot forwards.  Somewhat fair and part of the suggestion for an Echo instead of reverting the zone.  Though...I recently visited Echo: Atlas Park and noticed that though the buildings have different textures, it's not that different a layout.  It isn't like they moved Ms. Liberty and the starting contacts to right outside the hazard zone entrances.  The second subjective argument, and the one I'm sympathetic to, is that they like the revamp because they weren't invested in the Arachnos storyline.  The revamp halfway serves them since they start in the city instead of Fort Darwin but the three starting contacts are all based on you being from Paragon and being rescued by Arachnos.

 

Mechanically, there's more differences than people realize (and those people dismiss).  One has been called out in that by putting the hospital on the northern wall of the Mercy neighborhood, it puts it in a more centralized location in the zone.  But there's other actual problems.  A valid piece of advice new people are taught in CoX is learn how to navigate.  Though it's far easier due to all the temp powers, learning your distance helps you die less.  Darwin's Landing has wider streets than Mercy City so navigation is more dangerous after the revamp.  Speaking of danger, some of the newer spawns have freakish fast respawn timers.  There's also the fact that the Mercy neighborhood has almost no landmarks.  It's a weird decision to change the starting location but not make it easier to navigate.

 

So, taking all this into account, what do we do?  An Echo allows those who want the old version of Mercy, if you take into account that Atlas got to keep it's contacts.  Modern Mercy probably needs some spawn timer adjustments, changes to spawn placements, and a few altered textures to buildings and signs so it is easier to navigate.  And perhaps making the old Fort Cerebus music the music for the Mercy neighborhood.  The fact that Echo: Atlas and modern Atlas have similar music styles makes Mercy Island's new music feel even more weird of a decision.

[Lockely]

The issue remains that Echos don't have contacts or missions. They're almost empty shells made for when they make major physical zone design changes. You get nostalgia and a few more badges.

[megaericzero]

6 hours ago, Lockely said:

The issue remains that Echos don't have contacts or missions.

(Repeating from a previous thread about old/new Mercy: )

I wonder if it's possible with phasing tech to have both in one zone and characters get "old" Mercy if they come from Breakout or "new" Mercy if they came from Galaxy City or skipped the tutorial.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

(Repeating from a previous thread about old/new Mercy: )

I wonder if it's possible with phasing tech to have both in one zone and characters get "old" Mercy if they come from Breakout or "new" Mercy if they came from Galaxy City or skipped the tutorial.

It may be possible, but given how the zone phasing already fails, it may also be problematic.

[ZamuelNow]

23 hours ago, Lockely said:

The issue remains that Echos don't have contacts or missions. They're almost empty shells made for when they make major physical zone design changes. You get nostalgia and a few more badges.

 

Echo: Atlas does have contacts.  I just checked (though the character was above the Atlas level range).  Don't know if that's a SCORE thing or not and there's the argument of why does Atlas Park get special treatment.

[Vic Raiden]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

It may be possible, but given how the zone phasing already fails, it may also be problematic.

It's... confusing, sometimes. I did all the post-i21 arcs in Atlas Park already and saw all the "intruding" elements - Skulls in the south, Vahzilok in the north, Arachnos with their Rikti Pylon-ridden base in the west - phased out properly. Mercy Island, on the other hand... sure, the one building I was supposed to blow up is indeed on fire now when it didn't use to be and all the Fort Darwin setpieces have changed properly, but on the other hand, the various arc-linked overworld spawns - like the Longbow Communications Experts and Technicians or that Legacy Chain site with their magic circles - are still there, even though it doesn't make much sense.

 

I wonder how complex it would be to at least fix that, to say nothing of the Schrödinger's Overworld idea that's been proposed here. In fact, the latter might not even be possible because there'd need to be two of each starter contact with different available mission door pools. Altough, I think Matthew Burke in particular could benefit from being shifted back because then he'd no longer force the player into the same Snake pit for all his missions... while the Kuzmin-Firewire/Weber-Harris chain would just be completely screwed over due to the whole plot of pushing Longbow back from the island, especially from the fort they took over.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

the various arc-linked overworld spawns - like the Longbow Communications Experts and Technicians or that Legacy Chain site with their magic circles - are still there, even though it doesn't make much sense.

They aren't subject to zone phasing. However, if you don't do the Operative Kuzmin arc and its follow ups? You can still see everything things like the burning building that you didn't blow up, the Longbow in Mercy in the city still disappear when you aren't in their vicinity, and so on. Same thing with Atlas Park where regardless of whether you do the Matthew Habashy arc and its follow ups or not, you can still see both the phased and not phased elements.

[Vic Raiden]

Huh, never encountered that before.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Vic Raiden said:

Huh, never encountered that before.

If you would like to, there is a simple way of doing so. For Mercy Island, it helps to have a flier, but it isn't necessary. Approach the Longbow area of the city and watch the buildings. If you have not done the Operative Kuzmin arc, you will still see a burning building where you would have blown up the hidden Longbow base. As you get closer though, the building reverts back to not being on fire. For Atlas Park, take any character that has not done the Matthew Habashy and follow up arcs. Go to the industrial section of Atlas where you would fight Longbow and you will instead see Vahzilok, Clockwork, and Hellions. As you approach, it shifts so that the pylons appear and Arachnos is there.

 

Now, for both these cases, and the other examples I'll let you explore in both zones if you want, once you complete the requisite arcs, those phased in effects and spawns go away. So you will only see what is actually there as opposed to what the game is trying to mask it with for those arcs. So as long as you do those arcs, everything stabilizes and you won't see anything. Now, apply the zone phasing to contact and mobs that are not removed or altered by any mission. So you have Villain A arrive in Mercy Island after having escaped the fall of Galaxy City. The current Mercy Island is the primary Mercy Island, so that player would see the zone as it currently is. Villain B however, arrived in Mercy Island after having been broken out of the Zig by Arachnos and instead sees the zone phased in original Mercy Island plus the current Mercy Island because of how zone phasing works. So they would have two Mathew Burkes, two Kalindas, and a few other contacts I can't currently remember. Or say they get the snake hunt mission. Because of how zone phasing works, they will either see the Snakes they are looking for scattered fairly prolifically around the zone only to disappear and be replaced by Longbow and their crates or Legacy Chain, or they would only see Legacy Chain or Longbow and their crates until they got closer and could see they are actually Snakes or Hellions or other faction. So the villain that went through the Breakout tutorial would run into difficulties in accomplishing street sweep missions, find duplicate contacts of which only 1 they can interact with, and be nowhere near the other starting villains when they first spawn on the map for having done a different tutorial.