Crazy Controller Tricks

[Coyote]

Seems strange that Plant/Storm beats Grav/Storm or Ill/Storm. Unless you can get a ton of Creeper Vines up (the proc nerfs hurt as well) I can't see the Vine Trap beating PA and Phant or Grav's strong ST rotation.

 

I like Storm so much because it seems to have such a high 'ceiling.' You see to trade Endurance drain for extra damage. Things Ageless and Mu PP Power Sink can effectively improve your damage.

 

Once it gets perma PA (or close to it) /Cold sort of 'maxes out' whereas the more recharge you get as Storm just keeps on upping your damage more and more.

 

Right about the Recharge with Storm.

 

I don't think Plant/Storm should beat either Ill/Storm or Grav/Storm in theory, but in practice different players may be better or worse at DPS management, or one may have a better build, and Plant isn't so far behind Illusion or Storm (or Fire) that it can't put up DPS that's close enough to them. I would expect Ill, Grav, Fire, and maybe Dark to beat out Plant with the same player and level of build, but a good player and a good build can make a difference when it's not the same player using the same kind of build for both characters.

[Frosticus]

Now that I am 39 and have my basic powers (Fire/storm) MUHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

 

Getting into a smaller space, hallway in a warehouse or office building, dead end cave, sometimes even a bigger spaces, and have 10+ mobs in the air bouncing off the floor, walls, ceiling, and objects in the game world like popcorn because I have unleashed, flashfire, tornado, lightning storm, and bonfire.... with friends and/or in a large space I of course use firecages to keep things contained, by myself (or with a small number of ranged friends) I let lose and use what can only be called CHAOS control as I laugh maniacally and my imps run around taking tasty bites out of all those nasty bad guys..... *IF* and I mean only *IF* things look like something might be able to actually stand upon its feet and think about starting an attack I can always use Gale - though for the most part it really blows.

 

With the Immob changes Fire cages + Gale is actually pretty nifty..... it does KD instead of doing nothing with the immob now. Can keep knocking a group over if they are being a problem.

 

If you like that chaos try a demon/storm someday. I've seen 5 maybe 6 little fire imps running around with living hellfire plus all my demons. it is hilarious.

 

 

[Frosticus]

Storm has always had the highest ceiling.

I had a bot/storm that was up near the top of the pylon thread way back in the day and the build wasn't proc'd out. I abandoned it because assault bots -regen wasn't working. who knows now...

storm/son/power was one of my favorite beasts. I played a little mini game to see how hard you could get total focus to hit with all the -res+aim+powerbuildup

 

Regarding the plant/storm in the pylon thread keep in mind that is an insp run. rebuilding that combo for sufficient survivability would likely have serious dps consequences.

 

Storm has a couple issues to overcome though. In practice they can be very detrimental and allow cold to surpass it for the task of AV killing.

 

-Hurricane hurrican't keep you alive vs AV's. Similar to cold you have to build for s/l or ranged def. Unlike cold you don't have benumb gutting their damage output.

 

-Endurance woes. An aggressive storm uses endurance almost as fast as it drains hp from foes. HL allows cold to build for pure aggression rather than end management

 

-Fleeing enemies. nado, LS, freezing rain, overwhelming odds. All those things cause fleeing. Believe me an AV will run from Atlas park to Peregrine Island once the flee kicks in. They can't get away from the debuffs of HL and benumb.

 

So to squeeze out max performance you gotta build for +def, +rech, resolve endurance woes, and find a way to make enemies stay put.

 

That's a tall order. But not impossible. I'm still in the mindset that if the -regen of assault bot works then bots/storm/mace(mu) could do some unreal things. I'm slowly leveling a demon/storm that i have some pretty high hopes for. At the very least it is a hoot.

[Maxzero]

Storm has always had the highest ceiling.

I had a bot/storm that was up near the top of the pylon thread way back in the day and the build wasn't proc'd out. I abandoned it because assault bots -regen wasn't working. who knows now...

storm/son/power was one of my favorite beasts. I played a little mini game to see how hard you could get total focus to hit with all the -res+aim+powerbuildup

 

Regarding the plant/storm in the pylon thread keep in mind that is an insp run. rebuilding that combo for sufficient survivability would likely have serious dps consequences.

 

Storm has a couple issues to overcome though. In practice they can be very detrimental and allow cold to surpass it for the task of AV killing.

 

-Hurricane hurrican't keep you alive vs AV's. Similar to cold you have to build for s/l or ranged def. Unlike cold you don't have benumb gutting their damage output.

 

-Endurance woes. An aggressive storm uses endurance almost as fast as it drains hp from foes. HL allows cold to build for pure aggression rather than end management

 

-Fleeing enemies. nado, LS, freezing rain, overwhelming odds. All those things cause fleeing. Believe me an AV will run from Atlas park to Peregrine Island once the flee kicks in. They can't get away from the debuffs of HL and benumb.

 

So to squeeze out max performance you gotta build for +def, +rech, resolve endurance woes, and find a way to make enemies stay put.

 

That's a tall order. But not impossible. I'm still in the mindset that if the -regen of assault bot works then bots/storm/mace(mu) could do some unreal things. I'm slowly leveling a demon/storm that i have some pretty high hopes for. At the very least it is a hoot.

 

Oh I know its not impossible I have made my dream build myself.

 

Perma Hasted and PA

Triple stack Freezing Rain and LS

Double stack Tornado

Softcap range defence

50-60% lethal, smash and energy resist (25% cold and fire)

Good single target rotation

Cardiac alpha and Power sink energy management

 

[Jaynen]

Seems strange that Plant/Storm beats Grav/Storm or Ill/Storm. Unless you can get a ton of Creeper Vines up (the proc nerfs hurt as well) I can't see the Vine Trap beating PA and Phant or Grav's strong ST rotation.

 

I like Storm so much because it seems to have such a high 'ceiling.' You see to trade Endurance drain for extra damage. Things Ageless and Mu PP Power Sink can effectively improve your damage.

 

Once it gets perma PA (or close to it) /Cold sort of 'maxes out' whereas the more recharge you get as Storm just keeps on upping your damage more and more.

 

Right about the Recharge with Storm.

 

I don't think Plant/Storm should beat either Ill/Storm or Grav/Storm in theory, but in practice different players may be better or worse at DPS management, or one may have a better build, and Plant isn't so far behind Illusion or Storm (or Fire) that it can't put up DPS that's close enough to them. I would expect Ill, Grav, Fire, and maybe Dark to beat out Plant with the same player and level of build, but a good player and a good build can make a difference when it's not the same player using the same kind of build for both characters.

 

I always heard plant and fire referenced as the most damaging sets at least the old forums and the splattrollers/farmer threads? Are you specifically talking about damage vs single tough targets like AVs? I have heard about Gravs control but not its damage I guess. My guess is creepers may have a couple loopholes that allow it to scale in ways it really should not supposed to? It has a lot of options for socketing procs, - res, hold, and a lot of damage slots. If it works like masterminds than that single enhancement gets its own ppm for each creeper tentacle?

[Maxzero]

Seems strange that Plant/Storm beats Grav/Storm or Ill/Storm. Unless you can get a ton of Creeper Vines up (the proc nerfs hurt as well) I can't see the Vine Trap beating PA and Phant or Grav's strong ST rotation.

 

I like Storm so much because it seems to have such a high 'ceiling.' You see to trade Endurance drain for extra damage. Things Ageless and Mu PP Power Sink can effectively improve your damage.

 

Once it gets perma PA (or close to it) /Cold sort of 'maxes out' whereas the more recharge you get as Storm just keeps on upping your damage more and more.

 

Right about the Recharge with Storm.

 

I don't think Plant/Storm should beat either Ill/Storm or Grav/Storm in theory, but in practice different players may be better or worse at DPS management, or one may have a better build, and Plant isn't so far behind Illusion or Storm (or Fire) that it can't put up DPS that's close enough to them. I would expect Ill, Grav, Fire, and maybe Dark to beat out Plant with the same player and level of build, but a good player and a good build can make a difference when it's not the same player using the same kind of build for both characters.

 

I always heard plant and fire referenced as the most damaging sets at least the old forums and the splattrollers/farmer threads? Are you specifically talking about damage vs single tough targets like AVs? I have heard about Gravs control but not its damage I guess. My guess is creepers may have a couple loopholes that allow it to scale in ways it really should not supposed to? It has a lot of options for socketing procs, - res, hold, and a lot of damage slots. If it works like masterminds than that single enhancement gets its own ppm for each creeper tentacle?

 

You know maybe each Tentacle does? Though if I remember correctly the only proc set that the Tentacles themselves can trigger is Knockback since each Tentacle is only a single target melee and that does not slow.

[Zep]

AVs are not all that hard to immob as a rule.

 

Whats the chance of Lightning Storm being un-nerfed I wonder?

 

 

[Jaynen]

I just tested with creepers socketing an explosive strike, an anhilliation , and a positrons blast. All 3 enhancements proc'd per creeper "tentacle" it was like 6 6 6 6 86 6 6 6 100 and I saw the - res notifications also which potentially makes the creeper far more valuable to hold procs than classic damage/acc etc?

[Redlynne]

If it can stack with the Achille's Heel Proc...wow.

 

The Achilles' Heel proc NEVER stacks.

Overwrite, sure.

Stack ... NEVER.

 

That's because the way the proc works is that it causes the $Target to cast the debuff ON THEMSELF.

That means that the "caster" of the debuff is not your PC (or anyone else's PC), but is instead the $Target casting the debuff on themself.

And guess what's built into that debuff that they cast onto themself?

 

Effect does not stack from same caster.

 

This means that if you had an entire LEAGUE of attackers all proc Achilles' Heel onto a target, simultaneously ... only ONE debuff from Achilles' Heel would appear on the $Target.

 

 

 

So in that respect, if you slot Achilles' Heel into Creeper Vines, it might proc "more reliably" (higher chance) than in other powers, but it wouldn't create a "deeper stack" of debuff on the $Target.

[Maxzero]

I just tested with creepers socketing an explosive strike, an anhilliation , and a positrons blast. All 3 enhancements proc'd per creeper "tentacle" it was like 6 6 6 6 86 6 6 6 100 and I saw the - res notifications also which potentially makes the creeper far more valuable to hold procs than classic damage/acc etc?

 

Are you sure thats from the Tentacle? Looks like the ground patch was proccing them. Check the combat log.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Plant_Control

 

According to this the patch on the ground should proc the Immo and targeted AoE sets.

 

The Vines have two attacks. A melee attack that should proc Knockback sets and a range attack that should proc slow sets.

[Jaynen]

I just tested with creepers socketing an explosive strike, an anhilliation , and a positrons blast. All 3 enhancements proc'd per creeper "tentacle" it was like 6 6 6 6 86 6 6 6 100 and I saw the - res notifications also which potentially makes the creeper far more valuable to hold procs than classic damage/acc etc?

 

Are you sure thats from the Tentacle? Looks like the ground patch was proccing them. Check the combat log.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Plant_Control

 

According to this the patch on the ground should proc the Immo and targeted AoE sets.

 

The Vines have two attacks. A melee attack that should proc Knockback sets and a range attack that should proc slow sets.

 

Ok testing again, Positrons and Annhiliation proc on the patch (but I am getting way more than 3ppm from positrons)

Exposive strike procs on the tentacle vines but its a knockback set piece so maybe that makes sense

 

Patch did 3704 dmg

Energy Bonus was 2520 of that

Smashing Bonus was 675

Smashing Attack 509

 

Vine did 2567 dmg

Energy Bonus 1118

Smashing Bonus 856

Smashing Attack 372

Lethal Attack 220

 

These are the numbers from running the log through SNBR

chatlog_2019-07-13.txt

[DSorrow]

Ok testing again, Positrons and Annhiliation proc on the patch (but I am getting way more than 3ppm from positrons)

Exposive strike procs on the tentacle vines but its a knockback set piece so maybe that makes sense

 

Patch did 3704 dmg

Energy Bonus was 2520 of that

Smashing Bonus was 675

Smashing Attack 509

 

Vine did 2567 dmg

Energy Bonus 1118

Smashing Bonus 856

Smashing Attack 372

Lethal Attack 220

 

These are the numbers from running the log through SNBR

 

Seems like procs are worth it in CC then.

[Maxzero]

I just tested with creepers socketing an explosive strike, an anhilliation , and a positrons blast. All 3 enhancements proc'd per creeper "tentacle" it was like 6 6 6 6 86 6 6 6 100 and I saw the - res notifications also which potentially makes the creeper far more valuable to hold procs than classic damage/acc etc?

 

Are you sure thats from the Tentacle? Looks like the ground patch was proccing them. Check the combat log.

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Plant_Control

 

According to this the patch on the ground should proc the Immo and targeted AoE sets.

 

The Vines have two attacks. A melee attack that should proc Knockback sets and a range attack that should proc slow sets.

 

Ok testing again, Positrons and Annhiliation proc on the patch (but I am getting way more than 3ppm from positrons)

Exposive strike procs on the tentacle vines but its a knockback set piece so maybe that makes sense

 

Patch did 3704 dmg

Energy Bonus was 2520 of that

Smashing Bonus was 675

Smashing Attack 509

 

Vine did 2567 dmg

Energy Bonus 1118

Smashing Bonus 856

Smashing Attack 372

Lethal Attack 220

 

These are the numbers from running the log through SNBR

 

Interesting. People have been claiming Procs have been crippled for 'patch' like entities.

 

Could give can an example of how many procs you are getting per minute and on how many targets?

[Jaynen]

Hard to say this was a lower level character and was against random groups of about 5-6 guys some as few as 3. It felt like I was often getting strings of procs and more than once every 20 seconds for sure, the fights themselves tended to be short as the creepers killed them quick with the proc

[Jaynen]

well just think about it as rolling more dice, it seems to roll on each dot application/damage application so with stuff that does low individual damage but high frequency the procs are pretty huge because their damage doesn't seem to be based off the damage of the thing proccing it.

[Olerus]

Just finished a marathon +4/x8 solo ITF with an Ill/Cold (12:10 time, but actual mission time was about 3 hours as I took several breaks).  No temporary powers used, but I did use inspirations and kept the heroes alive for most of the last two missions.  Softcapped S/L/R, perma-Haste + PA + Benumb + Heat Loss + Toxic Taranula, using Clarion for Destiny to avoid mezzing when appropriate.  Between Annihilation, Achilles' Heel, Poisonous Ray, Benumb, Sleet, and Heat Loss I can stack a tremendous amount of -Res and -Regen, plus I have my powers slotted to the 9s for DPS.  For instance, the humble Blind can hit a level 54 AV for 360 damage and a normal opponent for over 750 with all debuffs active thanks to a lot of procs. 

 

Mission 1 was rather easy.  Did not need to use any powers outside of Deceive.  Cleared with no deaths.  Mission 2 was much harder, as the ambushes, defense debuffs, crystal exploding, etc. all had a chance to hurt me.  I could Deceive my way through it, but it was slow.  Maybe 5 deaths here, could get by with none.

 

Mission 3 was a fairly simple task.  I moved forward slowly, using Deceive to thin ranks and keeping Daedalus alive for speed.  Once 4 generals and co were down, I proceeded to the computer.  Daedalus was a pretty spazzy pet, so I had to clear a pretty wide swath before he would target the computer.  No deaths from computer, though I did kill most of the robots through incidental pet damage.  Requiem was fairly easy with Clarion to avoid getting stunned.  With Daedalus helping on DPS, Reqiuem went down in a matter of minutes.  Romulus on the other hand took nearly 30 minutes and 3 deaths, and was done without Daedalus as he spazzed out and ran off to his death.  Romulus's AI is absolutely horrid.  Unless he is constantly taunted, he runs.  I easily had the DPS to take him down, even without Assault active or Lore pets, but not if he spent his time sprinting around if I didn't get PA down the instant they dropped.  I believe he regenerated to full 3 times through his sprints, and I ended up dying twice to overaggro from pet's following Romulus.

 

Mission 4 wasn't particularly hard.  I knew I had the DPS to kill Romulus, I just needed to separate him from the Nictus Essences that are a couple hundred times more dangerous than he is.  They love to hug you, and they have an auto-hit ability that will rapidly drain your life.  Imperious followed me over the hill after I cleared the square, and after a couple attempts at different strategies (Deceiving him + trying to take down a Nictus Essence wouldn't work), I decided to pull him away from the square and his Nictus helpers.  With Imperious's help, killing him took about 5 minutes. 

 

I imagine I could run this straight through ignoring inspirations, Daedalus/Imperious but it would likely take 4+ hours.

[DSorrow]

Just finished a marathon +4/x8 solo ITF with an Ill/Cold (12:10 time, but actual mission time was about 3 hours as I took several breaks).  No temporary powers used, but I did use inspirations and kept the heroes alive for most of the last two missions.  Softcapped S/L/R, perma-Haste + PA + Benumb + Heat Loss + Toxic Taranula, using Clarion for Destiny to avoid mezzing when appropriate.  Between Annihilation, Achilles' Heel, Poisonous Ray, Benumb, Sleet, and Heat Loss I can stack a tremendous amount of -Res and -Regen, plus I have my powers slotted to the 9s for DPS.  For instance, the humble Blind can hit a level 54 AV for 360 damage and a normal opponent for over 750 with all debuffs active thanks to a lot of procs. 

 

Mission 1 was rather easy.  Did not need to use any powers outside of Deceive.  Cleared with no deaths.  Mission 2 was much harder, as the ambushes, defense debuffs, crystal exploding, etc. all had a chance to hurt me.  I could Deceive my way through it, but it was slow.  Maybe 5 deaths here, could get by with none.

 

Mission 3 was a fairly simple task.  I moved forward slowly, using Deceive to thin ranks and keeping Daedalus alive for speed.  Once 4 generals and co were down, I proceeded to the computer.  Daedalus was a pretty spazzy pet, so I had to clear a pretty wide swath before he would target the computer.  No deaths from computer, though I did kill most of the robots through incidental pet damage.  Requiem was fairly easy with Clarion to avoid getting stunned.  With Daedalus helping on DPS, Reqiuem went down in a matter of minutes.  Romulus on the other hand took nearly 30 minutes and 3 deaths, and was done without Daedalus as he spazzed out and ran off to his death.  Romulus's AI is absolutely horrid.  Unless he is constantly taunted, he runs.  I easily had the DPS to take him down, even without Assault active or Lore pets, but not if he spent his time sprinting around if I didn't get PA down the instant they dropped.  I believe he regenerated to full 3 times through his sprints, and I ended up dying twice to overaggro from pet's following Romulus.

 

Mission 4 wasn't particularly hard.  I knew I had the DPS to kill Romulus, I just needed to separate him from the Nictus Essences that are a couple hundred times more dangerous than he is.  They love to hug you, and they have an auto-hit ability that will rapidly drain your life.  Imperious followed me over the hill after I cleared the square, and after a couple attempts at different strategies (Deceiving him + trying to take down a Nictus Essence wouldn't work), I decided to pull him away from the square and his Nictus helpers.  With Imperious's help, killing him took about 5 minutes. 

 

I imagine I could run this straight through ignoring inspirations, Daedalus/Imperious but it would likely take 4+ hours.

 

Nice!

 

I tried pulling Nictified Romulus a couple of times on my run, but didn't really have success with that. I'll put it down to not having used that strategy in almost a decade so I just straight up couldn't remember where you're supposed to pull him to stop the Nictus from following.

 

Using Poisonous Ray and the Tarantula from Mace is a good call from an optimizing point of view. Initially I had those on my build back on the officlal servers and I'd most likely have them here too if the two powers fit my concept and the mace redraw didn't drive me crazy.

[Olerus]

I had success pulling Nictus Romulus using a non-damage power (Benumb) and then hightailing it off the square and to the left which I had cleared of 5th Column beforehand to keep the pets focused.

 

Originally this build was meant to be played in a duo, maxing S/L defense but going through the fire epic pool for high resistances as well.  However, I found relying on the duo to be a bit more limiting than I thought.  The character concept is pretty open ended (sentient illusion created by a Russian cosmonaut that was affected by the Nihilus force, sort of an anti-Phoenix force), so it wasn't hard to justify the tech.  The harder part was that redraw, as originally I had a really nice attack chain of Blind > Spectral Wounds > Fire Blast / Arcane Bolt and now I have a really clunky chain that often needs me to fill the gaps with debuffs.

[Frosticus]

  Romulus on the other hand took nearly 30 minutes and 3 deaths, and was done without Daedalus as he spazzed out and ran off to his death.  Romulus's AI is absolutely horrid.  Unless he is constantly taunted, he runs.  I easily had the DPS to take him down, even without Assault active or Lore pets, but not if he spent his time sprinting around if I didn't get PA down the instant they dropped.  I believe he regenerated to full 3 times through his sprints, and I ended up dying twice to overaggro from pet's following Romulus.

 

 

Your trusty right hand man phantasm has the solution to your problem. You know him as the guy that does ok damage and has an affinity for being punched in the face. Most of us just leave him to do whatever he wants to do, but his single best power is so often wasted by his AI. The decoy he casts also taunts and it is typically  one of the initial powers that phantasm will cast.

 

So for AV's that only want to run, or for situations that are simply too dangerous to have aggro turn your way for even a moment then consider (re)casting phantasm a short while before PA drops. It isn't a 100% solution, but for a runner in particular, the extra cycle or two of having it stick around is often enough to finish the job.