Travel Power Diversification

[bustaboom]

It would be nice if you weren't strapped to choosing a travel power just because you want something deeper in a travel power set.
Is there a way to make ANY travel power (flight, superspeed, etc) count as one of the chosen abilities across all travel sets regardless of which actual travel power you choose. 

EX. Let's say I want Burnout from superspeed powerset, but I want Flight as my travel power. In this case, I would be allowed to choose Flight which would count as the first, then hasten or flurry and something else to get down to Burnout.

Since a travel power is almost always taken as one of these abilities, I think it would be fair. The only argument that could be made against it if it is feasible from a coding standpoint would be that this could count across multiple travel sets and act as multiple powers across additional travel power sets but i don't think that would even be worth considering for most

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, bustaboom said:

The only argument that could be made against it if it is feasible from a coding standpoint would be that this could count across multiple travel sets and act as multiple powers across additional travel power sets but i don't think that would even be worth considering for most

That's not the only argument that can be made against this. Just like previous threads asking for any pool powers to count for any other pool powers outside of their set. Pool powers are built as themes. And you are asking to throw that out. Power selections are intentionally limited, with pool powers requiring devotion to their specific pool to unlock access to higher tier powers in that pool. And you are asking to throw that out. I am opposed to the OP.

[CrusaderDroid]

I don't think you should be able to take Evasive Maneuvers just because you got Mystic Flight and Hover, so I don't believe this is a good change. It's trimming down the opportunity cost of choosing powers, but there's no reason given as to why we need that specifically.

 

A better argument might be that if we need fewer pool powers to get to the best stuff, it'll let us focus on our unique powersets that we picked at character creation. I could at least be moved by that, but I think power choice is one of the most important skill tests in the game, and I don't think it should be toned down accordingly.

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, bustaboom said:

Let's say I want Burnout from superspeed powerset, but I want Flight as my travel power. In this case, I would be allowed to choose Flight which would count as the first, then hasten or flurry and something else to get down to Burnout.

 

You're not going to get Weave and Unrelenting or Fold Space just because you took Combat Jumping and Infiltration.  That's not happening.  Pool restrictions exist specifically to prevent that.

[Lyone_Manes]

I don't think I agree entirely...that said:
 

I'm not a fan of some of these barriers to entry.

 

Weave/Dodge in the Fighting Tree require 1 other Fighting Skill.

Weave/Dodge are ridiculously useful and good abilities and while Boxing/Kick aren't great, they're useful if you're in Melee anyway.

 

Group Fly is required for MMs to have flying Minions and requires 2 of Hover/Air Superiority/Fly...meaning they have to spend 1 extra point in Movement powers to do the same thing every other AT can do with 1 fewer...Movement Power and have all their abilities.

 

Group Fly and Group Teleport shouldn't require more than 1 power in the Pool...They're weaker versions of Teleport/Fly that are usually a waste for non-MM Players anyway, so it seems almost silly for them to have ANY barrier.

[Troo]

10 hours ago, bustaboom said:

It would be nice

 

It would be nice but choices and consequences are a big part of this game. Trade offs typically exist for a reason... crap, I hate agreeing with @Luminara

[Herotu]

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

Trade offs typically exist for a reason.

Just for devil's advocate (I like restricted choice, I get decision paralysis), what reason?

[Troo]

Just now, Herotu said:

Just for devil's advocate (I like restricted choice, I get decision paralysis), what reason?

 

It's simply the choices and consequences. This concept permeates the game.

CoX is very much a high level choose-your-own-path story vehicle that allows players to endlessly tinker with their characters. It is not a first person shooter/looter.

• Player has x amount of endurance do they choose to attack or heal = result.
• Player chooses to chase soft capping or +rech, these usually come with a cost.

 

[Herotu]

35 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

It's simply the choices and consequences. This concept permeates the game.

CoX is very much a high level choose-your-own-path story vehicle that allows players to endlessly tinker with their characters. It is not a first person shooter/looter.

• Player has x amount of endurance do they choose to attack or heal = result.
• Player chooses to chase soft capping or +rech, these usually come with a cost.

 

With regard to having to sacrifice something to get something else - the hard choices - the thing that I can't get over is how much of the rare stuff in this game has been given/is easy to get now. With that in mind, removing hard choices elsewhere in the game would seem, to me, to be on-brand for this particular version of the game. 

 

I suppose what I'm wondering is where was the line drawn and why there?

 

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Herotu said:

With regard to having to sacrifice something to get something else - the hard choices - the thing that I can't get over is how much of the rare stuff in this game has been given/is easy to get now. With that in mind, removing hard choices elsewhere in the game would seem, to me, to be on-brand for this particular version of the game. 

 

I suppose what I'm wondering is where was the line drawn and why there?

 

The only rare things that are easy to get now as far as I know are PvP enhancements. Power availability has been changed based on level, but those aren't rare. Back on Live travel pools were changed so players could get their travel powers earlier without needing to unlock the travel power, but only travel pools got that change. To me, the core design of the game hasn't changed, with power selection limits remaining in place. Again, the only change to that being the travel powers themselves. (Edit: And even then, the powers after the travel powers in those pools retained their requirements.)

 

Edit again: Right. I forgot that incarnate powers don't need iTrials to unlock them any more. That counts.

Edited April 20 by Rudra

[Troo]

5 minutes ago, Herotu said:

I suppose what I'm wondering is where was the line drawn and why there?

 

I don't think the line has been drawn and if your suggestion is that it is slipping ('much of the rare stuff in this game has been given/is easy to get now') I agree.

 

Luckily a lot of what has been done is sort optional if a player wishes to effectively self gimp.

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

I don't think the line has been drawn and if your suggestion is that it is slipping ('much of the rare stuff in this game has been given/is easy to get now') I agree.

 

Luckily a lot of what has been done is sort optional if a player wishes to effectively self gimp.

That's not what I was saying. 

 

I am not judging whether it is good or bad, but in this version of the game, some things were chosen as being things that could be given to the players without the previous sacrifices, but not the ones the OP is referring to, so where is that line drawn?

[Troo]

I am going to go with I can't remember when a'la cart pool powers were discussed and what came down from on high.

 

It might have been in these.. maybe:  (note: there are lots of links in these)

 

Edited April 20 by Troo

[bustaboom]

But alot of arguments here kind of make my point. Saying that the sets are are themed. So I would be choosing the same few sets regardless of the character I am trying to them because I want a specific power in the travel sets. I think in the name of theme it would be a better idea. And someone mentioned evasive maneuvers, so why would they be against someone with mystic flight and hover instead of flight and hover? I don't understand how that would be much different, you are still required to have other pre reqs from that set for it.

 

And some are mentioning power sets outside of the movenemt sets, those would not be included in this.

Edited April 20 by bustaboom

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, bustaboom said:

But alot of arguments here kind of make my point. Saying that the sets are are themed. So I would be choosing the same few sets regardless of the character I am trying to them because I want a specific power in the travel sets. I think in the name of theme it would be a better idea. And someone mentioned evasive maneuvers, so why would they be against someone with mystic flight and hover instead of flight and hover? I don't understand how that would be much different, you are still required to have other pre reqs from that set for it.

 

And some are mentioning power sets outside of the movenemt sets, those would not be included in this.

If you want Mystic Flight and Hover? Then take them. Neither has any prerequisites.

[bustaboom]

@Rudra evasive maneuvers was the example that was brought up

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, bustaboom said:

@Rudra evasive maneuvers was the example that was brought up

My mistake. Apologies.

[Luminara]

18 hours ago, Herotu said:

Just for devil's advocate (I like restricted choice, I get decision paralysis), what reason?

 

Design and balancing of content requires a reasonable expectation of player character performance.  Restricting power availability narrows the gap between lowest and highest character performance, which allows developers to make content which is neither overwhelming for the lowest end nor a cakewalk for the highest end.  In other words, the easier it is for players to access something, the more it has to be designed around in order for content to be fair and accessible to everyone.

 

Let's take Group Fly as an example.  There's content in the game which requires Flight of some kind, the Seed of Hamidon in First Ward.  If Group Fly had no prerequisites, that content would have been designed with the expectation that many more players would have taken Group Fly.  The Buoyant Membrane power would not have been created, which would have made the encounter inaccessible for some players, and the developer response would have been "Team with someone who has Group Fly."

 

Acrobatics is another good example.  If Acrobatics were "free", meaning it had no requirements beyond reaching level 20 and/or having any two pool powers, many more enemies would have high mag KB and Holds with long durations, and there would be no -KB IOs.

 

This is the foundation of all of the power restrictions in the game.  From the requirement that every character has at least one power which deals damage, to the base recharge times on powers, to the level cap, every restriction that exists does so solely to give the developers both minimum and maximum character performance expectations around which content can be created and balanced.  Limitations on character strength create the baseline for content creation.  They're not there exclusively to control power creep, they're also a constraint on content.  They're what ensure that there are no cliffs which are only surmountable by a handful of builds, or content which is so easy that it can be quickly and easily handled with unslotted Brawl.

[Lyone_Manes]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Let's take Group Fly as an example.  There's content in the game which requires Flight of some kind, the Seed of Hamidon in First Ward.  If Group Fly had no prerequisites, that content would have been designed with the expectation that many more players would have taken Group Fly.  The Buoyant Membrane power would not have been created, which would have made the encounter inaccessible for some players, and the developer response would have been "Team with someone who has Group Fly."

Just wanted to take issue with this as a bad example: It WOULD still exist, because Group Fly doesn't just give everyone Fly, it forces everyone to be in the same vicinity which isn't reasonable for accomplishing many of the missions like Hami. There's also Jumping/Teleporting/Super-Speed so not everyone took Flight. It would have almost certainly been built the exact way it already was, because that variation in Travel Powers would be too limiting to make something Flight-accessible-only.

 

Overall...I'm not against Pre-requisites, but the game has changed a LOT since release. There is less reason for things like Group Fly/Group Teleport to have the same barriers they did at the beginning of the game. But things like Evasive Maneuvers? the Fighting Tree? Presence? Leadership? A lot of these SHOULD have barriers/pre-reqs.(though I think Presence has a bit too many personally. 😛 )

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Lyone_Manes said:

Just wanted to take issue with this as a bad example: It WOULD still exist, because Group Fly doesn't just give everyone Fly, it forces everyone to be in the same vicinity which isn't reasonable for accomplishing many of the missions like Hami. There's also Jumping/Teleporting/Super-Speed so not everyone took Flight. It would have almost certainly been built the exact way it already was, because that variation in Travel Powers would be too limiting to make something Flight-accessible-only.

A point of contention here: @Luminara is referring to the Seed of Hamidon in the example, not Hamidon. And no amount of Super Speed, Speed of Sound, Ninja Run, or other similar power is going to get your character up to the Seed or most of the Seedlings.

[Lyone_Manes]

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

A point of contention here: @Luminara is referring to the Seed of Hamidon in the example, not Hamidon. And no amount of Super Speed, Speed of Sound, Ninja Run, or other similar power is going to get your character up to the Seed or most of the Seedlings.

That was the point...They designed it around the idea not everyone would have Fly, and Group Fly being more accessible wouldn't change that Flight wouldn't be consistently available enough. It was the idea that they'd design it without the ability for non-Fliers to Fly that I was disputing.

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Lyone_Manes said:

That was the point...They designed it around the idea not everyone would have Fly, and Group Fly being more accessible wouldn't change that Flight wouldn't be consistently available enough. It was the idea that they'd design it without the ability for non-Fliers to Fly that I was disputing.

 

Toggle mutual exclusivity.  Status effects in almost half of the attacks used by enemies, including KD and high mag KB.  "Holes" in every damage mitigation set.  One-shots on characters without sufficient Resistance.  The Hollows.  Terra Volta.  Both the original and the redesigned Hami raid.  Controller damage.  Top Dog.

 

The game is littered with examples of design decisions based on a disregard of whether or not any given character had any specific ability.  You bet your ass they would've designed a fight which required some form of flight if Group Fly had been more accessible, because that was the approach they used to encourage players to team.  If you don't have X, team up with someone who does.

[srmalloy]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:00 AM, Lyone_Manes said:

Group Fly is required for MMs to have flying Minions and requires 2 of Hover/Air Superiority/Fly...meaning they have to spend 1 extra point in Movement powers to do the same thing every other AT can do with 1 fewer...Movement Power and have all their abilities.

You could make the argument -- although I'm not sure how this would be implemented -- that Fly should apply to a Mastermind's henchmen as well; that would make Group Fly an equal choice for all ATs, removing the need to spend an extra power. I don't know whether it should apply to Mystic Flight as well; it seems to me that giving MMs henchmen flight is a way to further distinguish Fly from Mystic Flight, with Mystic Flight getting another minor advantage in a different direction.

[Lyone_Manes]

12 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

You could make the argument -- although I'm not sure how this would be implemented -- that Fly should apply to a Mastermind's henchmen as well; that would make Group Fly an equal choice for all ATs, removing the need to spend an extra power. I don't know whether it should apply to Mystic Flight as well; it seems to me that giving MMs henchmen flight is a way to further distinguish Fly from Mystic Flight, with Mystic Flight getting another minor advantage in a different direction.

That's been my preference...but I suspect it'd be a massive PITA to implement. I figure just making Group Fly, which is already coded well, easier to acces seems like a reasonable answer. Honestly...even just lowering the pre-req to "1 Power in Flight" would make it better...I always take "Hover" for the extra Defense anyway personally.

[srmalloy]

Just now, Lyone_Manes said:

That's been my preference...but I suspect it'd be a massive PITA to implement.

I can see in my mind how it might be done, but it's hugely dependent on the internal architecture of the game as to how it would need to be implemented. Now that I'm retired, though, I have the time to be able to download the game sources and go digging into them to see where they could be changed for various additions, and once I'm more familiar with them, look at volunteering as a programmer for the Homecoming team.