NPC ally is attacking when Tide pool is cast

[Ridiculous Girl]

i have noticed something strange... i have been casting tide pool first under enemies with a targetting macro, setting up for my follow up attacks with my marine defender, Buttery Justice. But never does tide pool aggro the enemies by itself. i swore that i saw in the descriptions somewhere that it was an attack that the enemies do not notice. but when i go back i cannot find that anywhere. same with shifting tides, i'll put it on an enemy and they will not notice, which is not in the description either.

 

this is all well and good, but i have been noticing that when i have a NPC companion, Grym or Lady Jane for example, that they will aggro on the macro-targeted mob immediately after the application of Tide Pool. normally i can initiate combat at my leisure after the application of tide pool and shifting tides, but the NPCs will attack as soon as i start with one.

 

what am i missing here? should either tide pool and shifting tides be noticible attacks? or are the NPCs attacking prematurely, for odd mechanical reasons?

 

ideas? 🙂

Edited August 5 by Ridiculous Girl
changed title subject to better reflect the bug, removed old title

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

But never does tide pool aggro the enemies by itself. i swore that i saw in the descriptions somewhere that it was an attack that the enemies do not notice. but when i go back i cannot find that anywhere. same with shifting tides, i'll put it on an enemy and they will not notice, which is not in the description either.

 

I'm not complaining. I like that they don't notice it.

If I remember correctly, doing damage is what causes enemies to notice an attack, and, as long as these aren't proc'd for damage, I don't think either of the do damage.

[Ridiculous Girl]

25 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm not complaining. I like that they don't notice it.

If I remember correctly, doing damage is what causes enemies to notice an attack, and, as long as these aren't proc'd for damage, I don't think either of the do damage.

i like it too, but tide pool does slow and powers like tar patch or distortion field do the same, with exception of the -res in tar, and they aggro. i can see why not with shifting tides, with exception of putting in damage procs.

 

what i cannot figure out is why the NPCs aggro when i drop tide pool on a target. they act like it is an attack. if it is a passive kind of attack i do not think that they should. i mentioned shifting tides, because it seemed like they did the same with that also. i'll test again with that when i get a mission with another NPC ally and the servers are up again.

[Ridiculous Girl]

ok, i just reteted it with Grym, in Twinshot's 3rd arc and first mission. Grym aggros when Tide Pool is dropped, but not Shifting Tides as i thought. but, like i thought, Tide Pool does slow, though i am not sure if it slows while they are still passive or when they become aggressive.

[Rudra]

Tide Pool:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=corruptor_buff.marine_affinity.tide_pool&at=corruptor

Shifting Tides:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=corruptor_buff.marine_affinity.shifting_tides&at=corruptor

 

Both are set to not notify enemies. So yes, they are meant to not be noticed by enemies.

[Ridiculous Girl]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Both are set to not notify enemies. So yes, they are meant to not be noticed by enemies.

ok, then why do NPCs attack when i activate tide pool?

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

ok, then why do NPCs attack when i activate tide pool?

I don't have a Marine Affinity character to double check. However, do you have any procs slotted? And are they attacking when you use Tide Pool or is there another effect going on at the same time?

 

And to follow up, if that is the case, then why did you post:

9 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

But never does tide pool aggro the enemies by itself. i swore that i saw in the descriptions somewhere that it was an attack that the enemies do not notice. but when i go back i cannot find that anywhere. same with shifting tides, i'll put it on an enemy and they will not notice, which is not in the description either.

So are they attacking when you use it or are they not attacking when you use it?

[Ridiculous Girl]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't have a Marine Affinity character to double check. However, do you have any procs slotted? And are they attacking when you use Tide Pool or is there another effect going on at the same time?

 

And to follow up, if that is the case, then why did you post:

So are they attacking when you use it or are they not attacking when you use it?

no, Buttery Justice is only level 23, with SOs slotted in.

if i am alone and i cast tide pool with a target macro (it's a location AOE), no one aggros, i can cast shifting tide next at my leisure. if i cast it with a NPC ally present, like Grym or Lady Jane, as soon as it is cast, they attack that mob i have targetted with the macro. i do have a stealth slotted in on sprint, but the mobs do not attack me when i cast alone. combat is always initiated prematurely by the NPCs when i cast on mobs.

 

i guess to further test, i would need to try it without the stealth and the without the targetting macro

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

no, Buttery Justice is only level 23, with SOs slotted in.

if i am alone and i cast tide pool with a target macro (it's a location AOE), no one aggros, i can cast shifting tide next at my leisure. if i cast it with a NPC ally present, like Grym or Lady Jane, as soon as it is cast, they attack that mob i have targetted with the macro. i do have a stealth slotted in on sprint, but the mobs do not attack me when i cast alone. combat is always initiated prematurely by the NPCs when i cast on mobs.

 

i guess to further test, i would need to try it without the stealth and the without the targetting macro

Then that would be why the mobs aggro when you use those powers. The powers themselves are not supposed to notify mobs, and per what you are saying, they are not notifying mobs which is the correct thing to happen. Combat NPCs are their own problem, and them attacking is what is causing the aggro in your provided example. So then my question becomes: since Tide Pool and Shifting Tide are flagged to not notify, and when used without outside factors that themselves cause aggro do not actually aggro targets affected by Tide Pool and/or Shifting Tide, what is the bug being reported here?

[Ridiculous Girl]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Then that would be why the mobs aggro when you use those powers. The powers themselves are not supposed to notify mobs, and per what you are saying, they are not notifying mobs which is the correct thing to happen. Combat NPCs are their own problem, and them attacking is what is causing the aggro in your provided example. So then my question becomes: since Tide Pool and Shifting Tide are flagged to not notify, and when used without outside factors that themselves cause aggro do not actually aggro targets affected by Tide Pool and/or Shifting Tide, what is the bug being reported here?

the NPCs do not attack, they are in a passive/stand-by mode. that is until i cast tide pool, then the NPC ally attacks. if i attacked, the NPC ally would attack, as i would expect. but i am not attacking, i am casting a non-attack power, as demonstrated by doing it solo, where i cast and nothing happens. the bug is that they are attacking when they should not be. the bug is that they are attacking when i am casting a passive power, a power that does not initiate combat. they are initiating combat solely because i am casting it, for no other reason.

[Rudra]

I don't have any characters that can use Ouroboros that have any do not notify powers, so I have no means of checking to see if that behavior also shows up on those as well. If they do? Then I have no idea what to say other than ask if you are within the NPC's aggro radius of enemies. If they don't? Then I agree that something weird is going on.

[Ridiculous Girl]

ok, i ran that twinshot arc mission yet again... i realized that, since i am ridiculous, i had slotted the stealth in the wrong sprint power, so stealth was not involved in any way. 😄 i turned off all other powers, namely super speed (which i had not been using in mission) and assault (which i had). each time, i am standing just outside of their perception range, but Grym is always behind me, maybe 10 feet. i tried using tide pool without the macro but targetting the area around the boss, while also targetting the boss, Grym the NPC ally, attacks as soon as i cast Tide Pool. so, i tried again. this time i cast tide pool near the boss, while targetting Grym, and he attacks that area as soon as Tide Pool is cast. each of these different variations have been tried several times, it happens most of the time. i say most because sometimes Grym just stands there. but, it is not only Grym that behaves thi way, Lady Jane did the same thing.

 

TL;DR... the bug seems to be that NPC allies will attack affected enemies in proximity to where Tide Pool is cast, they will attack even if the enemies are not alerted. Tide pool is a location AOE that does not alert enemies, but will draw in NPCs, initiating combat.

Edited July 30 by Ridiculous Girl
clarified

[Luminara]

100' -Stealth + NPC aggro system = banana balls.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

100' -Stealth + NPC aggro system = banana balls.

Yep, that would do it. Tide Pool inflicts a -stealth debuff on affected targets, so Grym and Lady Jane can see them and aggro.

[Ridiculous Girl]

9 hours ago, Luminara said:

100' -Stealth + NPC aggro system = banana balls.

the enemies are not stealthed... what i had been testing on was a twinshot mission, 3rd arc 1st mission, and the boss is a girlfriend from hell, with a fallen LT, and a minion. none have a stealth. the other was montague's arc mission with Lady Jane, there are spirits with ethreal, but there were also groups with non-stealth powers having the same aggro effect on the NPC ally when Tide Pool is cast.

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

the enemies are not stealthed... what i had been testing on was a twinshot mission, 3rd arc 1st mission, and the boss is a girlfriend from hell, with a fallen LT, and a minion. none have a stealth. the other was montague's arc mission with Lady Jane, there are spirits with ethreal, but there were also groups with non-stealth powers having the same aggro effect on the NPC ally when Tide Pool is cast.

Tide Pool reduces affected target's stealth by 100 feet. That will increase the range at which they can be detected by 100 feet. That should even apply if the affected targets are not themselves using stealth. So when you opened with Tide Pool, you suddenly boosted the distance at which those mobs could be detected. So Grym and Lady Jane could suddenly perceive those enemies, and being combat NPCs, they attacked. Think of it as a backdoor way to boost everyone's perception range.

 

Edit: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

So basically, Tide Pool is adding 100 feet to the distance at which the affected targets can be detected.

(Remember, stealth is just a -perception effect. So a -stealth effect is just a +perception effect. A +perception effect that only applies to your ability to perceive targets in the -stealth effect.)

 

Edited July 31 by Rudra

[Ridiculous Girl]

On 7/31/2024 at 11:16 AM, Rudra said:

Tide Pool reduces affected target's stealth by 100 feet. That will increase the range at which they can be detected by 100 feet. That should even apply if the affected targets are not themselves using stealth. So when you opened with Tide Pool, you suddenly boosted the distance at which those mobs could be detected. So Grym and Lady Jane could suddenly perceive those enemies, and being combat NPCs, they attacked. Think of it as a backdoor way to boost everyone's perception range.

 

Edit: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

So basically, Tide Pool is adding 100 feet to the distance at which the affected targets can be detected.

(Remember, stealth is just a -perception effect. So a -stealth effect is just a +perception effect. A +perception effect that only applies to your ability to perceive targets in the -stealth effect.)

 

i went and leveled up my necro/marine MM, specifically to get Tide Pool and see how its pets react to it. getting close enough with pets on aggressive/offensive but not aggroing one way or another, when casting Tide Pool, nothing happens with my pets. they are not triggered to attack. so, this is a bug specifically on the NPC allies, even agressive pets do not behave this way.

[Captain Fabulous]

Perception and aggro work differently on MM pets and NPCs. IIRC, when the caster is not in combat mode and doesn't give the pets the command to attack MM pets set to aggressive will only attack when they are within the range of their powers. They won't run into range upon seeing critters until you tell them to, you or they are attacked, or you begin to attack. So giving them the ability to see critters at a further distance via Tide Pool won't cause them to run into range and attack because that's not something they do.

But NPCs work differently. They will run into range and start attacking once they see a critter, which is why Tide Pool causes them to start attacking, because critters that were once out of their perception range now aren't. You can test this by casting Tide Pool around a corner, where line of sight for the NPC is broken. The NPC won't run around the corner and start attacking because even with the critters in Tide Pool the NPC can't see them. But if you were to cast a targeted power around a corner that puts you in combat mode, the NPC will then move into a line of sight position and begin attacking.

It's not a bug, it's just how perception, pets, and NPCs work.