Widen the Incarnate power tree.

[Greycat]

I'll say, to start, I'm not generally a fan of the incarnate system. And part of that is the structure that was going to be imposed on it - where it just started "tree" upon "tree," growing into ever more rarified powers. Philosophically it's always felt ... kind of opposed to how I've otherwise seen COH grow, which was "wider" - more variety in the same level structure, more ATs, more powersets, more to do with them both in terms of enhancing (IOs) and content.

 

Well, with Hybrid, the Incarnate system got pruned. And, honestly, I think Hybrid's a good place for it to stop its upward growth - but it still has space to grow "wider."

 

This doesn't just mean more Incarnate-level content - I'm for more content in general, Incarnate or otherwise. But giving us more choices in the structure the Incarnate system started.

 

Essentially, I want to turn the Incarnate tree into a bush.

 

 

Similar to VEATs (and no, I don't believe I'm saying that,) the Incarnate system could be widened out, not just in the power choices in the existing Alpha/Judgement/Interface/etc. branches - but in more branches to the side. And, since I'm a believer in choices - or perhaps decisions would be more accurate - giving variety, the branches would be exclusive to each other. (For instance, you could have Judgement OR -thing from other tree- but not both.)  

 

For instance, we know Genesis was supposed to be placing AOE buff/debuff patches. Another branch of this could have AOE controls. In *each* of these, one of the powers wouldn't be a new "power" per se, but an extreme buff to the appropriate AT power - an elec blaster, for instance, could choose this buff power to supercharge Thunderous Blast while in or close to Incarnate content instead of having a secondary blast as a choice. It would end up slightly more powerful than the Incarnate version because it is, after all, *their* power, not something given by the well. A defender/corruptor would have this same choice in Genesis, or a controller would have the same choice in the branch the "other" way. Or, of course, they could pick another Incarnate power.  (Lore might get the same thing for Masterminds, specifically, but if a controller/dom wanted their pet buffed, they could pick that instead of new lores.)

 

Alpha, for its part, gets its buff (to some extent) extended down to - once earned - having a degree of effect all the way to level 1 if you exemp. Lessening values of course, but still a reward for getting it unlocked.

 

The new slots themselves I don't believe should have to be unlocked on their own - Judgement, for instance, would unlock the slot in the same "position" on the new branches.

 

So what new options should we put in them?

 

Honestly, I don't know. For the Judgement slot on the other two, expanded branches, as mentioned - Genesis, for AOE buff/debuff patches and perhaps a control buff/debuff. Interface, I kind of have the idea of adding an elemental aspect - essentially a universal proc that's specifically damage types or something similar to powers. It's mostly a flavor thing, and/or some sort of extra resistances on the other side - this is *not* fully fleshed out. For the rest of the branches (Lore/Destiny spots,) honestly I don't know.

 

And yes, you could still - say - create a Genesis power and a Judgement power, if you wanted. That doesn't affect availability in that way. (No, it would not affect higher tier power availability - you already "sacrifice" a T2 you created, for instance, to make a T3.) You'd just have to choose which you wanted to use for whatever content, just like you can swap out different Lores or Judgements or whatnot now.

So why not just make these extra powers in the existing branches?

 

It would accomplish the same thing, yes, but it feels like it'd dilute the personality of each slot we have now. I'd like to have the new side branches of the "bush" more related to each other thematically, somehow, like the current ones...aren't, really. It's really more organizational. "What should I pick?" "Want damage, go Judgement, want control, go (name not determined,) want buff/debuff, go Genesis."

 

(Oh. And again, yes. More Incarnate specific content... preferably that has nothing to do with Praetoria or Mot. Just for that "we should get more content first" comment that someone's inevitably going to make anyway.)

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Alpha, for its part, gets its buff (to some extent) extended down to - once earned - having a degree of effect all the way to level 1 if you exemp. Lessening values of course, but still a reward for getting it unlocked.

I was more or less okay with the suggestion until I got to this point. At which time I found my hackles raised and my fangs bared. I'm already frustrated that incarnate powers are retained all the way down to level 45, including Alpha's level shift, where they often get spammed to fast clear content that was never designed to handle that kind of power. So I am very much opposed to extending even just Alpha's effects to any extent any further.

[Greycat]

Just now, Rudra said:

I was more or less okay with the suggestion until I got to this point. At which time I found my hackles raised and my fangs bared. I'm already frustrated that incarnate powers are retained all the way down to level 45, including Alpha's level shift, where they often get spammed to fast clear content that was never designed to handle that kind of power. So I am very much opposed to extending even just Alpha's effects to any extent any further.

 

Mind you that's more a sub-suggestion, not really integral to this.  Though it's the way I've felt about Alpha pretty much since inception - it's sort of the tamest of all the Incarnate powers.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Mind you that's more a sub-suggestion, not really integral to this.  Though it's the way I've felt about Alpha pretty much since inception - it's sort of the tamest of all the Incarnate powers.

More variety in choices is something I support. Let's not make incarnate powers any more accessible to less then end game content though please.

 

Edited August 6 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "I".

[Greycat]

Just now, Rudra said:

More variety in choices is something support. Let's not make incarnate powers any more accessible to less then end game content though please.

 

*chuckles* Well, hack away at the other stuff, it's why the suggestions forum exists. 🙂 

[Rudra]

Just now, Greycat said:

 

*chuckles* Well, hack away at the other stuff, it's why the suggestions forum exists. 🙂 

I have no clue what to plug in there though. I'll post again later after I've had some time to consider.

[Rudra]

Here are some possible alternatives to Judgement.

 

Mercy

Depending on the specific power crafted and slotted, you have a very slow recharge power that converts enemies to allies. They don't become followers. They don't become pets. They simply become friendly to PCs for a set period of time. Like a confuse effect except that they don't remain targetable by PCs and their pets. (Edit: So they won't follow you around, but they will attack and be attacked by any remaining hostiles in the area.) Similar to how Zenflower pacifies the Devouring Earth. And just like with Zenflower, each crafted power would be limited to specific enemy types (such as undead, plant, et al.) or factions. (Yes, I know this will not be a particularly desired option.) Tier 1 maybe only affects minions and underlings. Tier 2 may also affect lieutenants. Tier 3 and 4? I don't know because I don't think it should affect bosses or higher. Though maybe it can make attempted mezzes against them more effective by adding magnitude to them. (Edit: Which for the sake of simplifying coding, would be a reduction in their Mag protection.) (Edit again: Make it a non-stacking effect, and you don't have to worry about a group of incarnates reducing Hamidon and his mitos to confused, paralyzed victims waiting to be put down.)

 

Creation

Depending on the power crafted, you can either make a passable or impassable barrier. The barrier would be maybe 3 character collision boxes wide and 1 character collision box tall, with potentially wider/larger walls from higher tier versions. Passable barriers do progressively more damage to things that try to move through it, with either a weak repel field or a larger area around the barrier that applies fear to enemies to discourage them from attempting to pass through. They can still be taunted through, if you can overcome the fear, or KB'ed through to cause them harm. This would encompass such powers as fire walls and blade barriers/walls. Impassable barriers would be like stone, metal, or plant walls; and can be destroyed. With higher tier versions improving their HP and/or adding damage effects for melee attacks used against them. Like a wall of briars maybe. (So if the enemy is too close, the wall does periodic damage to them. A damage aura. Because I think a current dev said a thorns ability like in some other games can't work in this one.) (Edit yet again: All the walls would only last for a set duration, maybe 10 or 15 seconds, unless destroyed before then. All the walls would have a threat of 0 but would still be flagged as PC pets, so enemies will still attack them if nothing else is present for them to attack. Impassable walls are simply destructible objects, so anyone can destroy them if desired, and must be placed on the ground. Passable walls would also have to be placed on the ground. [No using the walls to trap your fellow players in Atlas Park for instance.] Passable walls would still be destructible, but would have appropriately high defense and/or damage resist to the incorrect forms of attack for their type. So a fire wall would have no damage resist to ice or water attacks, but would effectively be impervious to smashing and lethal attacks from its ridiculously high defense and/or damage resist. All walls have a much larger than themselves area that precludes the placing of more walls to prevent abuse against their fellow players as much as possible. And passable walls do damage as per other AoE attacks, since they are considered player pets/effects. Just like how you never have to worry about how many of your teammates or civilians you are rescuing are going to be flambe dinner for any scavengers in the area when throw that fireball. So no using like a fire wall to murder level 1s and 2s in City Hall.)

 

Edited August 6 by Rudra

[Oklahoman]

I'm all for adding to the incarnate stuff, but I don't want to create any more items I need to click, which I think is what you are suggesting.

 

I think what I would prefer to see is something like each power getting bushed out more at the top level, possibly unlocking at certain vet levels. Just as an example (pardon the crude Microsoft Paint mockup):

 

So, maybe the new item at the yellow arrow level unlocks at vet level 50, and the red at vet level 100 - whatever, pick a number. Maybe they require Transcendents rather than components because who wants to chase components at this stage in the game. As for what they do? No clue - maybe one of them carries a minor, scaling version of the power when you are exemped? Anyway, just a thought.

[Greycat]

41 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

I'm all for adding to the incarnate stuff, but I don't want to create any more items I need to click, which I think is what you are suggesting.

 

Nope. You'd end up with the same number of Incarnate powers available - just a variety in what powers you can craft for those slots (IE, not just a nuke at the same Incarnate level as Judgement, but a tree to the side where you could pick, say, a control or de/buff patch instead.)

[megaericzero]

Based on previous threads about expanding/reworking incarnates, I'm more a fan of making the slots freeform - allowing the player to pick any six incarnates at a time as more ability categories are added - but can see how that could leave a bad taste as people figure out the six meta picks and only ever go with those, or let them sextuple-up on something (eg: buffs) and take them to insane levels.

 

Personally, I'm not keen on the idea of having an option be an extreme buff to a power instead of a standard ability. It feels like it would be moot both mechanically and conceptually - similar to above, I'm afraid people would run the numbers and always, or never, pick the stat-boost alternative over the separate ability and it doesn't seem like it would add enough value to character concepts that isn't already covered by taking the existing thematic match and writing it off as "this is my power, not the well's."

 

As for the groupings, I think they should be more uniform if they're not freeform - for instance, putting Genesis with Destiny rather than Judgment (which your posts lead me to believe is the suggestion but I could be misreading). Judgment itself could have the big CC mentioned as a tradeoff for raw damage, and perhaps another alternative that has major single-target damage instead of AOE; hybrid could potentially get the "boost one stat at the expense of another" idea that was listed in the old dev AMAs about what other slots might have done. (EDIT: Erm, these are listed by the slot that they'd be mutually exclusive with but, of course, would have their own name to differentiate them.)

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Mercy [...]

Seems too niche to be useful as-is and could be better served as a powerful (generic) confuse in a larger CC-focused category like the one that greycat suggested, I think.

Edited August 6 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Mercy [...]

Seems too niche to be useful as-is and could be better served as a powerful (generic) confuse in a larger CC-focused category like the one that greycat suggested, I think.

*shrug* I know it is niche. I don't see a way to have it not be niche without making it an absolute, guaranteed 'I Win' button though. And @Greycat already has a dedicated CC buff pitched, so no reason to duplicate that effort. (Even though there is a CC buff in the proposed Mercy as well....) It's just a thought or consideration in @Greycat's proposal anyway, so not like it matters if it dies as an idea. Or if it gets tweaked into something else.

[Greycat]

Honestly, consider this a framework of sorts and pitch what you might see in those trees.

[Rudra]

Here's one that will likely die in a hurry!

 

Transformation

This tree provides powers that completely replace your character, including powers and enhancements, with another creature. For instance, there is a wolf tree. The tier 1 power turns your character into a wolf. Most likely a not upgraded Howler Wolf from Beast Mastery. The tier 4 would turn your character into a fully upgraded Dire Wolf or a Wotan. Or a nature tree. The T1 turns your character into an Infested Ranger. The T4 would turn your character into Greater Devoured or a Werewolf Lord depending on branch.

[Greycat]

... you know, there's a (last I knew unfinished and untextured) housecat model in game.

 

This is why I'm not a dev. T4- Ultimate power on othat! .... *turns into a housecat. No powers. But enemies go 'awwwww' and are placated for a while. Random chance of CC as some enemies are allergic and will start sneezing.*

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... you know, there's a (last I knew unfinished and untextured) housecat model in game.

 

This is why I'm not a dev. T4- Ultimate power on othat! .... *turns into a housecat. No powers. But enemies go 'awwwww' and are placated for a while. Random chance of CC as some enemies are allergic and will start sneezing.*

😁😃

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

So what new options should we put in them?

 

Honestly, I don't know.

 

Could the OP concept work towards resolving one wish I've heard a lot of people put forward, that of having more powers more in line with their primary and secondary power sets?

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

Could the OP concept work towards resolving one wish I've heard a lot of people put forward, that of having more powers more in line with their primary and secondary power sets?

If you're talking about attacks, wouldn't that fit in more with judgements?

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Techwright said:

 

Could the OP concept work towards resolving one wish I've heard a lot of people put forward, that of having more powers more in line with their primary and secondary power sets?

 

That's part of why I was thinking of putting the rough idea for Genesis, for instance, in the ... parallel tree? ... of Judgement, and a similar one in the other side for control. But - purely conceptual at the moment, so lots of room to play.

[Uun]

I would be in favor of adding additional branches/abilities you could take instead of the existing ones. Adding new branches/abilities you could take in addition to the existing ones would just add to power creep.

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

I would be in favor of adding additional branches/abilities you could take instead of the existing ones. Adding new branches/abilities you could take in addition to the existing ones would just add to power creep.

 

That's exactly what I'm describing...

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Uun said:

I would be in favor of adding additional branches/abilities you could take instead of the existing ones. Adding new branches/abilities you could take in addition to the existing ones would just add to power creep.

While not the same as what you are saying, the OP is functionally the same. For instance, if you craft a Judgement power and a Side Branch 1 power, you can either slot that Judgement or you can slot that Side Branch 1 power, but you can't slot both. So it would still for all intents and purposes be an instead of power.