What is Meant by "Weak" or "Underperforming" Powersets?

[Waljoricar]

So I've recently had a couple of character concepts - a Necromancy/Poison Mastermind and a Kinetic Melee/Energy Aura Brute.

 

Now, for me, concept is king, always.

However.

 

When starting a new character, I like to have a quick browse of the forums for bit of a build guidance and general consensus on primary/secondary synergy, playstyle, etc. I solo exclusively and play everything at the "standard" difficulty, so I'm not concerned with min/maxing a character.

it's disheartening when I learn that Kinetic Melee is objectively the worst melee set out there. Or that Poison on Masterminds is just a woefully underperforming set. Like I said, concept is king, but I also want to have a good time as I play and feel like my character packs a wallop, you know?

Which got me wondering; what do people actually mean when they talk about those bottom-of-the-barrel powersets being weak, underperforming, poorly optimised or trash on a particular AT?

Is it typically meant from an endgame "creatinging a build with the highest damage output" (or whatever metric fits the AT in question) mindset, or are some powersets just so broken, so in need of rework that they're not fit for purpose even when playing at standard difficulty?

Whether or not a primary/secondary combo is enjoyable is another matter, but I do wonder just how much I'm shooting myself in the foot by startig a new 1-50 solo journey with a character that, according to popular opinion, kinf of sucks.

Edited August 20 by Waljoricar

[Without_Pause]

KM's DPS woefully underperforms against other sets to where any other aspect of it like mezzes or -DMG doesn't put it on par with other sets. I can at least say Fire Melee is a contender for the most damaging melee set across all maps, but it doesn't really offer mitigation. Axe on the other hand can do lots of damage which will get resisted more often, but it has mitigation. KM looks pretty. 

 

I need to add to this chart, but this is the Scrapper numbers I came away with when comparing KM to Claws. I get Scrapper Claws is a bit of a cheat, see Spin's recharge, but there are other areas Claws is significantly better than KM. Note, I don't take Eviserate for Claws. 2.508 animation time in this economy? 😆 I lose count how often Devastating Blow(Rad Melee) with it's 2.904 animation time lands after a target dies. Burst does that and then there is CS. One can literally make the case for Shockwave having twice the DPA of Repulsing Torrent once you factor in Follow Up. People can say they made a build work for them via procs, or whatever. I'm just saying any investment in KM will easily be matched by Claws if not other sets.

And yes, someday I want to get a KM to 50 so when they finally fix it I merely need to do a respec versus level one up. Also, I recently rolled a build I don't hear talked about nor do I think it is close to being min maxed. It's fun and that's what works for me. 

 

Attack	Damage	Animation Time	DPA	Recharge	End
Strike	67.5664	1.32	51.18666667	3.2	4.16
Body Blow	72.5713	1.32	54.97825758	5	6.032
Swipe	47.5467	1.056	45.02528409	1.7	2.912
Quick Strike	52.5516	1.056	49.76477273	3	4.368
Slash	82.5812	1.584	52.13459596	4.8	5.491
Smashing Blow	92.591	1.452	63.76790634	7	7.796
Shockwave	65.6896	1.188	55.29427609	12.1	11.565
Repulsing Torrent	68.8176	2.244	30.66737968	12	11.856
Spin	98.8472	2.64	37.44212121	9.2	9.152
Burst	78.2019	2.904	26.92902893	15	14.3
Focus	85.9605	1.32	65.12159091	6.4	6.822
Forcused Burst	102.6008	2.244	45.72228164	8	8.528
Eviserate	124.4974	2.508	49.64011164	8.867	8.876
Concentrated Strike	222.7189	3.036	73.35932148	20	18.512

[ZekeStenzland]

I am not a high end player. I don’t solo giant monsters. I don’t solo or even lead incarnate trials. I can occasionally solo regular task forces, but only sometimes. 

 

That being said, my gut take is that no matter what AT, primary, or secondary you have, with even basic slotting, you can probably do good enough at basic difficulty levels in general. 
 

The only suggestions I have…

• Avoid sets like Empathy that mostly affect other teammates rather than you. 
• Avoid set combos that don’t mesh well together. Like a primary that does lots of damage to things next to you with a secondary that continuously pushing things away. 

 

[Psyonico]

I've got a kinetic/energy brute.  Probably my first toon to get fully T4'd with incarnates.  Although KM is considered weak among melee sets, it is still perfectly functional.  If concept is king, I think you'll find KM/Energy to be a fun combo.

 

Necro/poison may be another story, however.  My experience with poison on non-MMs is pretty good, but I don't have much experience with it on MMs.

 

The biggest difference (other than debuff strength) is MMs get Noxious Gas, as opposed to Venomous Gas.  NG gets cast on a pet, has a long recharge, and none of the debuff is enhanceable.  VG is a pbaoe toggle where the to hit and defense rebuffs are enhanceable.

 

NG really needs some love.

[Greycat]

If you want to run a certain character, just enjoy it. 

 

Pretty much every set is going to have someone saying something bad about it, it's "weak" or "unplayable" or something.  If you want to play it? Play it. 

 

And yes, I've done Nec/Poison (still have the character,) it's perfectly playable. Are you clearing entire maps in two minutes? Only if they're very small. So what? Poison is underperforming? Poison on a MM was the first set I accidentally soloed an AV on. Can it use some work or tweaks? Sure. Unplayable? Hardly. 

 

When it comes to "popular opinion" remember... McDonalds has sold billions of burgers. They're popular. Doesn't mean they're good for you. Take popular opinion the same way. 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, Waljoricar said:

what do people actually mean when they talk about those bottom-of-the-barrel powersets being weak, underperforming, poorly optimised or trash on a particular AT?

At least for me, I mean that, when compared to other sets for any given AT, said set(s) cannot accomplish the same feats - whether those metrics are durability, time to defeat X mobs, availability or ease of use of powers, usefulness of a given set's special or secondary effects, reliance on unique IOs or set bonuses to fill gaps in performance/functionality, and so on...

[Bionic_Flea]

Like Without_Pause above, some players have run detailed tests and rated different power sets according to DPS.  So you can get a ranking of most damaging to least damaging per unit of time.  But just DPS doesn't account for burst damage or sustain or any kind other effect or fun factor.

 

And then there are combinations of powersets that players have done crazy hard stupid things that should not be possible and other people try to make those to see if they can do the same.

 

Finally, there are groups that run the endgame content at the hardest levels and they have developed entire teams built around a distribution of powersets.

 

Those are all perfectly reasonable and fun things to do.  But any AT with any pairing of powersets can solo 90% of the content at level 50 with a good build at +1/x8 settings.  Many can do higher settings but all can do that.  And any AT with any pairing of powersets can also level from 1-50 with a crappy build at +0/x1 settings, as long as you know how to play and use all the tools available in game.

 

So while you may need (or want) a Ferrari (super duper flavor of the month powers and build), a Hyundai (any old powersets with a questionable build) will get you were you need to go.  And that's not even mentioning all the space on the continuum between Ferrari and Hyundai.

 

So you go ahead and level that Necro/Poison and make it as good as you want it. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I spend most of my time on scrappers, and it’s fair to say that by the time I hit 50, every one of them is able to handle +4/x8 content.  However, some are much faster than others.

 

I think the original devs thought process was to work in trade offs.  Sets that add additional survivability or control effects are offset with lower damage.  The problem though is that in team play outside of Hard mode stuff survivability is trivial enough that people want to just focus on damage.

 

[Triumphant]

If you're soloing and playing at standard difficulty, just about anything can be effective and fun, IMO.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

If you're soloing and playing at standard difficulty, just about anything can be effective and fun, IMO.

I don't think that's in dispute.  What is, however, is where powerset A can solo +4/x8 with little to no aid form set bonuses or other such power pools, while powerset B can do so with said additions, and powerset C *can't* do that, even with that assistance...

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Waljoricar said:

Now, for me, concept is king, always.

 

I'm a concept player that plays the level-ing content (the game) and not the end-game content.

I follow the character concept and pick powers as I go to fit that character conception.

 

I can't say that I have overly loved kinetic melee, but I can't say that I hate it. I'm not used enough to playing it to really make a good call on it.

I have a scrapper and a stalker with kinetic melee. I alt-jump but I can honestly say that I don't go out of my way to play either of those character (that being said, I have over 150 characters).

 

As for a poison mastermind ... I probably only have 1 or 2 of those. I know one for sure because it was built on character conception.

What would make it weak for a mastermind is really a lack of ability to heal your minions. If you don't mind respawning minions all the time, then that isn't much of an issue. 

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

I don't think that's in dispute.  What is, however, is where powerset A can solo +4/x8 with little to no aid form set bonuses or other such power pools, while powerset B can do so with said additions, and powerset C *can't* do that, even with that assistance...

Oh yeah, no doubt about it.  Certain sets just perform better than others.  The OP stated that they play at standard difficulty, though, so I assumed they were just playing at +0 difficulty.  In that context, I think they'll have fun with just about any AT. 

[biostem]

8 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Oh yeah, no doubt about it.  Certain sets just perform better than others.  The OP stated that they play at standard difficulty, though, so I assumed they were just playing at +0 difficulty.  In that context, I think they'll have fun with just about any AT. 

I guess I missed that part.  In which case, yeah - you can be successful with any set...

[Without_Pause]

I have builds I min/max on a bit. I don't care to try and build for +4/x8 on 'all' maps as those builds which can do it are fewer than people will imply, and I don't find them fun. On the flip side, I have other builds which pretty much only team with, so I don't can how they solo at all. 'You have a mission? Cool. lets go. I don't care what diff setting it is on.' I don't care if my Savage/shield Stalker can solo +4/x8. I care about having two ways to TP into mobs and the AoE I do because that's fun.

[Waljoricar]

Wow, so many thoughtful responses so quickly! Thank you all for your observations so far. This was a really fun read 😊

 

15 hours ago, ZekeStenzland said:

The only suggestions I have…

• Avoid sets like Empathy that mostly affect other teammates rather than you. 
• Avoid set combos that don’t mesh well together. Like a primary that does lots of damage to things next to you with a secondary that continuously pushing things away.
   

 

I think your second point is probably what served as the catalyst for my making this post. My first HC character back in 2019 was a War Mace/Dark Armour Scrapper. Loved that guy, lots of fun to play, but the endurance drain was just a total downer. Off to the forums I go for some guidance, only to learn I had apparently chosen the two most endurance hungry powersets in a Scrapper's repertoire...

 

This became something of a trend. I created a Dark Blast/Sonic Manipulation Blaster, an Illusion Control/Sonic Resonance Controller (and Dominator), a Time Manipulation/Storm Blast Defender, and each time I'd do a little build background check, I'd discover that I'd somehow, yet again, managed to put together two powers with playstyles at odds with one another.

 

15 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I've got a kinetic/energy brute.  Probably my first toon to get fully T4'd with incarnates.  Although KM is considered weak among melee sets, it is still perfectly functional.  If concept is king, I think you'll find KM/Energy to be a fun combo.

 

Necro/poison may be another story, however.  My experience with poison on non-MMs is pretty good, but I don't have much experience with it on MMs.

 

The biggest difference (other than debuff strength) is MMs get Noxious Gas, as opposed to Venomous Gas.  NG gets cast on a pet, has a long recharge, and none of the debuff is enhanceable.  VG is a pbaoe toggle where the to hit and defense rebuffs are enhanceable.

 

NG really needs some love.

 

I'm glad to hear that Kinetic Melee is at least fun. I'll probably go ahead a roll my Brute so your experienced opinion on the powerset is greatly appreciated.

 

You're definitely echoing what I've read about Poison on Masterminds elsewhere. It's interesting to me that, whilst players often caveat their feelings on certain powersets as only opinion, general consensus on Poison for Masterminds really is "it's just bad, avoid".

 

Such a shame too, as I'm committed to this particular character having Poison has a power. Water Blast/Poison Corrupter it is then!

 

15 hours ago, Greycat said:

If you want to run a certain character, just enjoy it. 

 

Pretty much every set is going to have someone saying something bad about it, it's "weak" or "unplayable" or something.  If you want to play it? Play it.

 

I think this is the right mindset and one I need to shift back into; there's no real need for me to be looking for build guidance at all, other than to demoralise and dissuade myself from playing a character I was super excited for five minutes prior. I'm not looking for endgame builds and I don't care about FotM builds, so I should just take a breath and play!

 

14 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

But any AT with any pairing of powersets can solo 90% of the content at level 50 with a good build at +1/x8 settings.  Many can do higher settings but all can do that.  And any AT with any pairing of powersets can also level from 1-50 with a crappy build at +0/x1 settings, as long as you know how to play and use all the tools available in game.

 

So while you may need (or want) a Ferrari (super duper flavor of the month powers and build), a Hyundai (any old powersets with a questionable build) will get you were you need to go.  And that's not even mentioning all the space on the continuum between Ferrari and Hyundai.

 

So you go ahead and level that Necro/Poison and make it as good as you want it. 

 

I think this comment really cuts to the heart of my original question, which was regarding the language we use to describe those "weaker" powersets across ATs and whether those terms had any relevance outside of the playerbase who are focused on making the biggest, baddest builds out there, or crunching numbers to see what reigns supreme.

 

I do think it's easy to interpret a lot of powerset criticism as "by choosing this powerset you are not only making the game unnecessarily more difficult for yourself, but also making it less fun as a result". I know that's the impression I was left with every time I considered picking Regen in any capacity.

 

11 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I'm a concept player that plays the level-ing content (the game) and not the end-game content.

I follow the character concept and pick powers as I go to fit that character conception.

 

Really pleased to hear from someone who plays the way I do (for the most part)!

 

Your comment reminds me that I'm definitely putting the cart before the horse a lot of the time when looking at build advice on the forums; people generally are talking about fully slotted, endgame builds - I rarely see builds designed for levelling base game content from 1-50.

 

The stakes are so much higher when running endgame content, I can appreciate why the long ass animation on Kinetic Melee's nova might be a genuine point of contention for many players.

 

I think I should try and better contextualise what it is I'm reading, when it comes to build discussions. Or just not read them altogether. I've been playing since i3. I think I know what I'm doing by now (I don't).

Edited August 21 by Waljoricar
Grammar

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Waljoricar said:

the endurance drain was just a total downer

There are ways to mitigate this, if you're willing to delve into a slightly more advanced aspect of the game.  Namely, the panacea, miracle, numina's, and performance shifter unique IOs...

[biostem]

Here's a useful link for them, but be forewarned that they can be expensive on the auction house...

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

[MoonSheep]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

I don't think that's in dispute.  What is, however, is where powerset A can solo +4/x8 with little to no aid form set bonuses or other such power pools, while powerset B can do so with said additions, and powerset C *can't* do that, even with that assistance...

 

i for one am bored with that as the benchmark (i know you’re not promoting it and only stating it) it feels a bit self inflicting in my view. i have characters which -could- solo +4/x8 but it feels like such a grind sometimes

 

therefore i agree with others that if you enjoy the alt and run it on medium difficulty then wahey. it might not perform as well for hard mode or speedruns, but if that’s not your cup of tea then you’re not missing out

 

+2 enemies buffed is where it’s at for team play in my view, the perfect mix of challenge and pace

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

i for one am bored with that as the benchmark (i know you’re not promoting it and only stating it) it feels a bit self inflicting in my view. i have characters which -could- solo +4/x8 but it feels like such a grind sometimes

 

therefore i agree with others that if you enjoy the alt and run it on medium difficulty then wahey. it might not perform as well for hard mode or speedruns, but if that’s not your cup of tea then you’re not missing out

 

+2 enemies buffed is where it’s at for team play in my view, the perfect mix of challenge and pace

You'll get no argument from me - Besides hating running out of end, I rarely make what would be considered "min-maxed" or even optimized builds...

[NotsoevilDM]

1 hour ago, Waljoricar said:

My first HC back in 2019 was a War Mace/Dark Armour Scrapper. Loved that guy, lots of fun to play, but the endurance drain was just a total downer. Off to the forums I go for some guidance, only to learn I had apparently chosen the two most endurance hungry powersets in a Scrapper's repertoire...

Tangent alert! If you want to talk about endurance issues, I am still working on an Ice Armour/War Mace Tanker. Thought it was just all the Ice armour toggles, never considered that War mace was particualrly end heavy. I have finally made it 50 with him and with incarnate powers slotted, endurance drain is now 'manageable'.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, NotsoevilDM said:

Ice Armour/War Mace Tanker

For sets like ice armor and energy aura, my main approach is to really leverage energy absorption or energy drain, and to just use them for the defense buff... 

[NotsoevilDM]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

For sets like ice armor and energy aura, my main approach is to really leverage energy absorption or energy drain, and to just use them for the defense buff... 

Indeed. Energy absorbtion is pretty much a default part of Cryo Magnon's attack chain for endurance recovery. The defence buff is a nice bonus..

[biostem]

24 minutes ago, NotsoevilDM said:

Indeed. Energy absorbtion is pretty much a default part of Cryo Magnon's attack chain for endurance recovery. The defence buff is a nice bonus..

I mistyped and meant that I *don't* use them just for the defense buff, but mainly for the end they grant...

Edited August 21 by biostem

[Without_Pause]

5 hours ago, biostem said:

There are ways to mitigate this, if you're willing to delve into a slightly more advanced aspect of the game.  Namely, the panacea, miracle, numina's, and performance shifter unique IOs...

For Dark Armor, the Theft of Essence proc can be seen as a requirement. 

[Luminara]

14 hours ago, Waljoricar said:

Is it typically meant from an endgame "creating a build with the highest damage output" (or whatever metric fits the AT in question) mindset

 

Yes, but it's usually subjective, based on a variety of factors rather than a direct 1:1 comparison and analysis.  Primaries and secondaries in Co* are all individual.  Even the ones that appear to be clones have differences.  Factors like hit rolls, special mechanics (Crits, Containment, Scourge, Fury, Chance to effects, to name a few), even the spawns themselves, what's in a spawn and how the spawn is arranged, can alter how a set performs.

 

And the players themselves aren't identical, either.  The same build in different hands will always give different results, due to differences in reaction time, responses, play style...  Even something as basic as general perception can sway how a set is viewed (sets with Smashing or Lethal damage are frequently spoken of poorly, because many people "know" that "everything heavily resists those damage types" (despite data collection and analysis proving otherwise)).  Personal preferences muddy the waters even more.  Some people consider a set "unplayable" if it doesn't have a minimum number of proc-slotting opportunities, or a specific type of power (a Hold, or a PBAoE attack with a minimum X' radius), or a power that can be slotted with the Achilles' Heel proc.  There are people who build characters completely reliant on multiple click powers to keep their attack chains fluid, instead of leaning into IO set bonuses, and other people who eschew anything more complicated than setting a single power on auto-fire, and people who bind all of their keys to inspiration combination and consumption binds, and people who use inspirations so infrequently that they forget they're there.  Attempts to quantify the performance spread tend to be tainted by personal play style, preferences, build patterns (yes, this is a real phenomenon), expectations and perceptions, despite the best intentions and efforts.

 

There is a bottom of the barrel in Co*, but the barrel is very shallow and where a set ranks is as much determined by the individual player as it is by raw performance.  What someone else might rate top tier, you might find to be lackluster, and vice versa.  So don't sweat it.