BIO armour. Does it suck?!

[BurtHutt]

Ok, so, I never really dabbled with Bio and I have one Titan Weapons brute. So, I made the old classic TW/Bio scrapper. Got to 50 and the toon is a beast. I went to do my usual and sweep the walls and base in Cimerora....and I get mutilated. They drop my DEF by 48 or more and then just knock me silly. 

 

I guess Broadsword is a debuff and Bio armour does not have any mitigation for that? Is that true? I had no idea it was THAT bad.

[tidge]

The Cimerorans are often how players get introduced to the idea of Defense Debuffs and "Cascading Defense Failures".

 

I can't quite recall what I did with my Bio Stalker in Cimerora, except that I was leaning hard on the Bio Armor's PBAoE for offense, in addition to the more classic things like Absorb.

[Triumphant]

General consensus it that it's quite good on things like tankers and brutes.  Not sure about scrappers.  I don't use it on any AT because I find the different modes confusing.  It's just too busy for me.  I like set and forget armors (possibly with one or two click powers- heals or what not).

 

I don't recall if BIO has good defense debuff resistance, or not.  If the answer is no then, yes, you're going to have problems.

 

 

[Erratic1]

Bio is one of the best armor sets in the game, often considered overpowered and a candidate for nerfs.

 

But yeah, Cimerora pretty much looks at Defensive sets like Parasite looks at Kryptonians...like lunch. That does not mean Bio sucks, just you've found Bio's nasty opponent.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Bio is easily one of the best armors.  However, it does not have defense debuff protection, and if that is how OP defines what "sucks" means then yes it does suck.

 

If you are fighting a mob of 15 centurions and everyone of them swings at you with an attack that causes -10 defense every three to five seconds, you should be aware that will floor your defense pretty quickly once a few hits get through.  It's known as "cascading defense failure" and if you are new to the game you can read about it here:  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Cascading_Defense_Failure

[Techwright]

34 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Bio is one of the best armor sets in the game, often considered overpowered and a candidate for nerfs.

 

But yeah, Cimerora pretty much looks at Defensive sets like Parasite looks at Kryptonians...like lunch. That does not mean Bio sucks, just you've found Bio's nasty opponent.

 

I just started my first Bio defense, a savage brute, therefore, this is naturally intriguing to me.  So it has a nemesis.  Good.  What tactic(s) to use in that case?

 

2 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

  It's known as "cascading defense failure" and if you are new to the game you can read about it here:  https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Cascading_Defense_Failure

 

Looks like the wiki article needs to be updated with Bio in the "prone to CDF" list.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I just started my first Bio defense, a savage brute, therefore, this is naturally intriguing to me.  So it has a nemesis.  Good.  What tactic(s) to use in that case?

 

Number of different tactics depending on your situation...

 

(1) On a team let someone else grab aggro.

(2) You have "Oh Shit!" powers to use like Ablative Carapace, DNA Siphon, and Parasitic Aura

(3) Your offensive set might also allow survivability boosting via healing, knocking things down, making foes less likely to hit, etc.

(4) Epic powers can also provide the above aids.

(5) Inspirations

 

[Jacke]

9 hours ago, BurtHutt said:

Ok, so, I never really dabbled with Bio and I have one Titan Weapons brute. So, I made the old classic TW/Bio scrapper. Got to 50 and the toon is a beast. I went to do my usual and sweep the walls and base in Cimerora....and I get mutilated. They drop my DEF by 48 or more and then just knock me silly. 

 

I guess Broadsword is a debuff and Bio armour does not have any mitigation for that? Is that true? I had no idea it was THAT bad.

 

Welcome to the steeper part of the learning curve in City.

 

There's roughly 3 protections every Toon can have:

• Defense:  Not getting hit.
• Resistances:   Not getting the full amount of a hit.
• Absorb, HP, Regen:  Preventing the damage, taking the damage, and healing the damage.

There are buffs and debuffs to most of these.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Limits

 

Most non-Boss/AV mobs at the same Level will have a 50% chance to hit the Toon.  This changes with their relative Level, covered in two places:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

You need to know these things in general.  Also on a Melee Toon, use Combat Attributes to monitor some of your Defenses and other numbers so you can see when they get debuffed.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Combat_Attributes_Window

 

If the Toon normally has about 0% Defense and gets that Defense floored by debuffs to -100%, that means the mobs will be hitting nearly twice as often, all of them, ranged and melee.  If the Toon has some or really good Defenses, that multiplier will be much more, up to 20 times as much.  If the mobs are higher Level (quite common in L50 content), it won't be as big as that as the mobs will start off with more that 50% chance to hit, but it'll still hurt more.

 

Like attacks that are overwhelming your Toon, you need to react to heavy debuffs.  And they often come together.

• Warn the Team especially if tanking.
• If nothing else, like a real fight, RUN.
• Have some of your 20 Inspiration Slots allocated to help.  In this case, big Defense Inspirations or Defense+Resist Inspirations, as well Heal or Heal+Endurance.
• Perhaps have the Destiny Power Ageless Radial T3 or T4.  It can provide Defense Debuff Resistance for a time.
• Get support from the Team.
• Learn to adjust your tactics to not bite off more than you can chew.
  • Which will vary with the Mission, the Team, and the mobs being fought.

 

 

[aethereal]

Bio armor has no debuff resistance of any kind.

 

I don't generally find it a huge problem on S/L defense debuffers (Bio provides S/L resistance, so if you build towards that it will help a lot to survive Cims and other defense debuffers who use S/L attacks).  But Praetorian Clockwork just wreck Bio by debuffing regeneration and defense and then having energy attacks (which Bio provides no native resistance to).

 

One of the reasons why I don't usually slot DNA Siphon as a proc bomb is that if you have it slotted defensively and you use it at the right time it can really help you survive defense-debuffing mobs.  Sure, against a lot of enemies that's redundant, but if you want to handle enemies that are debuff-heavy, it's really nice to have a big regeneration spike in the middle of the fight.  Unless your enemies also debuff regen.  Hi Shadows and Praetorian Clocks.

[Neiska]

Every set has a weakness, and Bio can stumble against -def. There are ways to help with it but they aren't fullproof, many are mentioned above. You can also use an incarnate power to help with -DEF. But if someone else is giving you -DEF protection bio still rocks on that mission. It is hard to make specific suggestions tailored to you without seeing your build though.

[BurtHutt]

Yeah, I will say I would not recommend BIO on a scrapper. It works well on my Brute because he has a lot of high resists so he can survive the Cim mobs.

 

I knew BIO didn't have that much in regards to debuff resist etc but wow this is just savage lol My poor scrapper. 

[Hjarki]

The 'classic' TW/Bio Scrapper is more of a pylon test build more than a general play build - Titan Weapons tends to be a bit clunky/slow for most purposes that aren't hitting a stationary target for a minute straight.

 

Bio Armor is also more of an offensive set rather than a defensive one. It's primarily taken when you want to maximize damage rather than survivability. The debuffs - -resist/-damage/-regen - also make it a good source of support.

 

To solve the issue of -defense, you can use a primary like Katana. While not a normal part of your rotation, Divine Avalanche can pump your +Lethal defense so high that cascading defense failures (at least against the most dangerous form of -defense from lethal attacks) will almost never occur.

[roleki]

I run /Bio Scrappers street hunting in Cimerora all the time; they aren't as sturdy as Shield or Invuln, but Bio has all the tools it needs to survive -Def.  In fact, my biggest hassle with those Temu Romans is -ToHit, so I've got a macro to make +ToHit inspirations and try to keep above 90 at all times.  

 

 

[Without_Pause]

Res based armors work better on Brutes and Tankers due to getting higher numbers from Res powers. They also have a decidedly higher Res cap on top of just more HP. I have a Rad/bio Brute and while it is sturdy enough, it actively uses the clicks, and again, there are situations soloing which will cause it issues. I feel like I have token builds for the various Res based armors as where I have multiples of the Def based ones. None of the Res based armors are on a Scrapper.

 

Counterpoint, Bio will put up as good of numbers for offense as any other armor. There definitely are Scrapper fans who love Bio for that.

[Uun]

Bio is a hybrid set. It relies on resistance against S/L/T, defense against F/C/E/N/P, then tops it off with +absorb and +regen. Unless you've added it from pool powers or set bonuses, it has no S/L defense at all. Against Cimerorans you want capped S/L resists. Brutes/tanks are better than scrappers/stalkers in this regard due to their higher resist cap.

 

Interestingly, the sentinel version of Bio has some defense debuff resistance (in Athletic Regulation). 

[Thraxen]

It’s good but you’re not tanking on a scrapper with it usually. Use carapace before the action. My spines/bio usually kills them before I run out of stuff to keep me alive. Can’t solo the whole wall. But one group at a time is fine. 

[Erratic1]

15 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Res based armors work better on Brutes and Tankers due to getting higher numbers from Res powers.

 

Brutes do not get higher numbers from Res powers than Scrappers do. Only Tankers do. Brutes have a higher Res cap, but they have to spend more accordingly to reach it than Tankers do.

Edited August 27 by Erratic1

[BurtHutt]

Ok, so I've been running around with my toon for a while. Pretty fun but is absolutely not able to handle multiple groups in Cimerora. The big mobs on the rooftops usually do a number on my toon and I land in ye olde hospital. It's kinda sad since I have DEFs and CORRs that can wreck these mobs lol (as well as tanks and brutes).

 

It is kinda odd how some of the toughest enemies in CoX are ancient warriors. Makes zero sense. Ah well. Back to the funny pages!

[Without_Pause]

6 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Ok, so I've been running around with my toon for a while. Pretty fun but is absolutely not able to handle multiple groups in Cimerora. The big mobs on the rooftops usually do a number on my toon and I land in ye olde hospital. It's kinda sad since I have DEFs and CORRs that can wreck these mobs lol (as well as tanks and brutes).

 

It is kinda odd how some of the toughest enemies in CoX are ancient warriors. Makes zero sense. Ah well. Back to the funny pages!

Just because a sword is old doesn't mean it is dull.

[biostem]

7 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

It is kinda odd how some of the toughest enemies in CoX are ancient warriors. Makes zero sense.

Welcome to superhero/comics logic - guy with a sword much tougher than numerous thugs with guns...

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

Ok, so I've been running around with my toon for a while. Pretty fun but is absolutely not able to handle multiple groups in Cimerora. The big mobs on the rooftops usually do a number on my toon and I land in ye olde hospital. It's kinda sad since I have DEFs and CORRs that can wreck these mobs lol (as well as tanks and brutes).

 

It is kinda odd how some of the toughest enemies in CoX are ancient warriors. Makes zero sense. Ah well. Back to the funny pages!

Have you thought about adding Barrier to your defenses?

[Uncle Shags]

I also have a TW/Bio, and also use the walls to test and compare my different toons.  OP, I'm not sure what's going on, because  your experience doesn't jive with mine at all.  My scrapper is a friggin beast.

 

So, just to check and make sure I'm not full of beans, I just went and tested in Cimerora.  As expected, with full on T4 incarnates I'm a wrecking ball.  I can take two groups of roaming bosses (4) and a full group of scrubs at the same time easily.  A full group of 20 goes down in one Build Momentum cycle.  But I assume T4 isn't what OP is talking about, so just to see, I also removed all my incarnate powers.  I wasn't able to take a boss duo (2) and a group together, but I could easily take out a group of 20, with barely a scratch.  I could have taken more but the aggro cap prevents it.

 

I've got a dark/dark tank, a FA/BA tank, a BA/FA scrapper, Shield/BA tank, and a EM/Dark stalker all maxed out.  To me it feels like my bio scrapper handles the walls better than them all.  I think the combination of fast damage with absorb shields is what does it.  You don't need defense if they're dead.   

[R jobbus]

just to clear some of this up, bio is an excellent secondary. and also, to be clear, cimerora is an end game ordeal if you're doing it at +4. so to use bio properly here you need to have a pretty good build, and incarnates and stuff. but this isn't different from what SR would require, if you're doing a dangerous end game area like cimerora or the ITF.

 

Bio does require learning though. And it's rewarding. as I said in another topic, it's not always about just having a set that offers you DDR so you can just sit in the middle of groups of enemies and slowly wear them down with decent/medium damage like SR allows you to do.

 

The other day I cleared 3 full groups of cimerorans in the big intersection of the first stage of the ITF+4/x8 on titan/bio in probably 25-ish seconds, and the way you accomplish this is by using bios survability, heals, and damage to just kill anything before it's able to really do anything to you. barrier helps, shadow meld helps, but it's also about how you play. if you know what your offense is capable of, you dont have to have DDR. when your build can kill a boss in a few seconds, your strategy changes, etc

 

bio is an excellent secondary, one of the best. but it does take some learning. it's not like willpower where you just set your toggles and zone out.

 

 

 

Edited September 12 by R jobbus

[Story Archer]

I think it's generally ugly, and it's the set that makes me most wish we had more 'No FX' options... but that's probably not what you're asking about.

[Story Archer]

On 9/11/2024 at 8:26 PM, Uncle Shags said:

You don't need defense if they're dead.   

 

Death IS an excellent DeBuff...

 

I'm sorry - BEING ARRESTED is an excellent DeBuff.