Endurance Cost: How would you handle it?

[Black Tangent]

I have a character whose toggles - mostly defense - are taking up too much endurance,   Assume that all reasonable slots on selected powers have as many Level 50 End Reduction IOs as reasonable, and Stamina is slotted with 6 level 50 End Mod IOs as well.    What would you do differently or in conjunction with this to use less End or recover it faster?

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

How are your attacks slotted?  Typically the greatest loss of endurance is using ones attacks.

You mention 6 slotting Endmod in Stamina.  That's very likely several extra slots used.

This makes me curious about your slotting in general?  Could you supply a build?

[Snarky]

To combat end probs i slot health with Panacea, Miracle, and Numina procs.  Then stamina with perf shifter end mod, perf shift proc, and usually one endmod IO but you could use 2 in extreme cases i guess.
 

It is also possible to slot a very few attacks in the game with theft if essence proc to steal some end.   

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Black Tangent said:

I have a character whose toggles - mostly defense - are taking up too much endurance,   Assume that all reasonable slots on selected powers have as many Level 50 End Reduction IOs as reasonable, and Stamina is slotted with 6 level 50 End Mod IOs as well.    What would you do differently or in conjunction with this to use less End or recover it faster?

 

Move those 4 extra slots out of Stamina and into attacks, slot for EndRdx.

[Black Tangent]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Could you supply a build?

 

Here's the build file. 

 

botmaster3-build.txt

[Without_Pause]

You should download Mid's and use that if possible. If you 2-slot a power with Common IOs, just using two slots for it and adding in 5 IO Boosters to each essentially have them perform equal to the power being 3-slotted. 3-slotted is the max you want to slot in a specific power given boosting a single trait. If a power takes Acc, you very likely need to slot for it. Toggles to a default need End Reduc in them. Unless a power is on Auto, it to a default needs some End Reduc. 

Edited September 9 by Without_Pause

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Black Tangent said:

 

Here's the build file. 

botmaster3-build.txt 4.21 kB · 0 downloads

Level 1: Inherent Fitness Health
    Crafted_Panacea_D (50)
    Crafted_Panacea_B (50)
    Crafted_Panacea_C (50)
    Crafted_Panacea_A (50)
    Crafted_Panacea_E (50)
    Crafted_Panacea_F (50)
Level 1: Inherent Fitness Stamina
    Crafted_Recovery (50)
    Crafted_Recovery (50)
    Crafted_Recovery (50)
    Crafted_Recovery (50)
    Crafted_Recovery (50)
    Crafted_Recovery (50)

For starters, rip those out.

Health = Panacea Proc, Miracle Proc, Numina Proc. Plus a Preventive Medicine if you've nowhere else to put it (personally I'd just 6-slot Radiant Aura with the entire PM set)
Stamina = Performance Shifter Proc, 2x Level 50+5 IOs. Power Transfer Proc if you've no reliable means of self-healing (you're fine since you're /Rad)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 

Level 2: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Pulse_Rifle_Burst
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 14: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Pulse_Rifle_Blast
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 16: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Photon_Grenade
    Crafted_Damage (50)

This looks like you're not actually using these attacks much?
I'd swap the inherent slot to an Accuracy IO if you're leveraging them occasionally for the -Regen debuff; otherwise drop them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Level 1: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Radiant_Aura
    Crafted_Heal (50)
    Crafted_Heal (50)
    Crafted_Heal (50)
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
Level 8: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Radiation_Infection
    Crafted_Defense_DeBuff (45)
    Crafted_Defense_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (45)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (45)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (45)
Level 10: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Enervating_Field
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
Level 20: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Lingering_radiation
    Crafted_Snare (50)
    Crafted_Snare (50)
    Crafted_Snare (50)
Level 24: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Choking_Cloud
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Hold (50)
Level 28: Pool Leadership Defense
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50)
Level 32: Pool Leadership Tactics
    Crafted_ToHit_Buff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_Buff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_Buff (50)
Level 35: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Night_Fall
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (50)
Level 41: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Soul_Tentacles
    Crafted_Immobilize (50)
    Crafted_Immobilize (50)
    Crafted_Immobilize (50)
Level 44: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Soul_Storm
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Hold (50)

Here's the actual problem. 

These powers all need better slotting - don't just focus on enhancing the main component like ToHit Debuff in 'Radiation Infection' and Hold Duration in 'Choking Cloud'. You can look up the raw values here or just use Mids like the rest of us; but Radiation Infection, Enervating Field and Choking Cloud are all real Endurance hogs. Also, you may want to look up "Enhancement Diversification" to understand the implications of using lots of the same sort of IO enhancement within a single power (like you have for Maneuvers and Stamina)... in general, 2x Level 50+5 IOs are enough to "cap".

(Your Henchmen slotting could also be made a *lot* more effective by mixing IOs from different sets rather than just 6-slotting the Soulbound and ATO sets. Robotics lends itself to frankenslotting a very bedlamatic mixture of Sets, HOs, Aura IOs and Damage Procs; and everything except the Drones needs some assistance managing their Endurance usage. But that's likely a conversation for another thread...)
 

Edited September 9 by Maelwys

[Without_Pause]

Also, asking for build advice would be even better done in the forum for Masterminds. 

[tidge]

Generally:

 

1) Unique Enhancements for +Endurance, and Recovery.

2) Accolades for +MaxEnd

3) Set bonuses for +MaxEnd

 

Masterminds... pay an endurance tax for their attacks. Slow down. Also Hasten has an Endurance tax, try to play with out it (I didn't look at the build).

[Ukase]

The first thing I would do is a respec. 

I used mids to open the build, and you've forgotten, or never know about the diminishing returns. 

If I assume you don't have unlimited funds, the first thing I'd do during the respec is take the 6 slots in stamina and reduce it to 3 if you continue to use common IOs. I might keep 4 slots if you use Set IOs - which would be Perf Shifter +end, Perf Shifter End Mod, Power Transfer End Mod and Power Transfer: Chance for Heal. 

Maneuvers is another area where you have 3.5 enhancements that are doing next to nothing for you because of Diminishing Returns. 
I would take away one of those slots and put it in Lingering Radiation. An end reduction in that power would serve you well. 
I'd also slap another end reduction in Dark Embrace. (and if you were to use sets, I'd just go with a 4 pc of Unbreakable Guard, or perhaps 3 Ribosome Hami-Os. Fairly cheap, and it would be like keeping the same 3 resists you have, and adding 3 more end reductions. (that's probably more than needed for this power though.) 

Let's look at Radiation Infection: it costs you .52/s of endurance. That is a humongous cost and your build doesn't have a single thing in it to reduce that cost. 
Take one of the defense debuffs out, one of the tohit debuffs out, and add 2 end reductions. Alternatively, the D-Sync Marginalizations would be perfect for you here. Place only two of them and call it a day, and have 4 slots to put somewhere else. 
The strange thing about this build is it still has 5 more slots that can be placed. So, I don't have a lot of confidence that the build I'm looking at is the actual build. 

Just at a glance, the biggest problem is not slotting with diminishing returns in mind. The second issue is not slotting any end reducers in your biggest endurance hog powers. 

8 hours ago, Black Tangent said:

Assume that all reasonable slots on selected powers have as many Level 50 End Reduction IOs as reasonable, and Stamina is slotted with 6 level 50 End Mod IOs as well. 

Making this assumption, I would have to know your budget. This build looks as if you're not loaded with influence. See, if it were me, I would use invention sets to 1) automatically deal with diminishing returns without thinking about it and 2) pursue those sets that specifically deal with increasing your endurance recovery and endurance points, and reducing your endurance costs. 

I would also automatically pursue the 4 passive accolades, even though only two of them add a small amount to the endurance points. Portal Jockey and Atlas Medallion both add 5%.

 

But, since you probably don't have the resources I do, I would certainly be trying to get those accolades, and also trying to plot a build that didn't use more than 3 of the same type of enhancement in the same power. 
 

[Black Tangent]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

Level 1: Inherent Fitness Health
 
For starters, rip those out.

Health = Panacea Proc, Miracle Proc, Numina Proc. Plus a Preventive Medicine if you've nowhere else to put it (personally I'd just 6-slot Radiant Aura with the entire PM set)
Stamina = Performance Shifter Proc, 2x Level 50+5 IOs. Power Transfer Proc if you've no reliable means of self-healing (you're fine since you're /Rad)

 

 What is the "PM set"?

 

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

 

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 

Level 2: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Pulse_Rifle_Burst
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 14: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Pulse_Rifle_Blast
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 16: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Photon_Grenade
    Crafted_Damage (50)

This looks like you're not actually using these attacks much?
I'd swap the inherent slot to an Accuracy IO if you're leveraging them occasionally for the -Regen debuff; otherwise drop them.

 

 

 

You guessed it.  The bots do most of the work.  I will sometimes throw in a Pulse Rifle Blast (Burst seems useless) or a Nemesis Staff to pick off runners that the boys are too busy to take care of, but other than that, I am debuffing, holding, watching toggles and health (and healing as neeed).   The only attacks I use regularly are Ptronic Core Final Judgment and Night Fall.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

Here's the actual problem. 

These powers all need better slotting - don't just focus on enhancing the main component like ToHit Debuff in 'Radiation Infection' and Hold Duration in 'Choking Cloud'. You can look up the raw values here or just use Mids like the rest of us; but Radiation Infection, Enervating Field and Choking Cloud are all real Endurance hogs. Also, you may want to look up "Enhancement Diversification" to understand the implications of using lots of the same sort of IO enhancement within a single power (like you have for Maneuvers and Stamina)... in general, 2x Level 50+5 IOs are enough to "cap".

(Your Henchmen slotting could also be made a *lot* more effective by mixing IOs from different sets rather than just 6-slotting the Soulbound and ATO sets. Robotics lends itself to frankenslotting a very bedlamatic mixture of Sets, HOs, Aura IOs and Damage Procs; and everything except the Drones needs some assistance managing their Endurance usage. But that's likely a conversation for another thread...)
 

 

That makes perfect sense.   Thanks!

 

 

[Without_Pause]

9 minutes ago, Black Tangent said:

 What is the "PM set"?

Preventive Medicine.

[Luminara]

That build needs to be taken outside and shot.

[Sanguinesun]

12 hours ago, Black Tangent said:

I have a character whose toggles - mostly defense - are taking up too much endurance,   Assume that all reasonable slots on selected powers have as many Level 50 End Reduction IOs as reasonable, and Stamina is slotted with 6 level 50 End Mod IOs as well.    What would you do differently or in conjunction with this to use less End or recover it faster?

 

 

 

 

1. Use mids or the ptr server to test out(as you can spawn any IO and build to 50 for free) to find potential improved builds for your play style. Lots of bonuses from sets for helping endurance management either in recovery boosting or endurance discounting. Just only doing general IO's for end redux isn't as effective as what can be garnered through set use.

2. Incarnates fully done(part of the build stuff in point 1 though really.

3. Improve potential management of your toggles.  You dont need to necessarily run all toggles all the time depending on what you've got going.  Also be mindful to manage your power use otherwise.

4. Beyond such general things as a whole, we cannot give you specific advice due to your not providing specific build information from which to give you feedback.  Every character is different and with different play goals so its really impossible to give much more specific help.

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

That build needs to be taken outside and shot.

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I haven't read every response but has anyone explained ED to the OP?

 

Six slotting Stamina isn't going to do him any favours at all and could well be one part of why he's strugging with his End

[Without_Pause]

40 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I haven't read every response but has anyone explained ED to the OP?

Indirectly. 

 

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

Let's look at Radiation Infection: it costs you .52/s of endurance. That is a humongous cost and your build doesn't have a single thing in it to reduce that cost. 
Take one of the defense debuffs out, one of the tohit debuffs out, and add 2 end reductions. Alternatively, the D-Sync Marginalizations would be perfect for you here. Place only two of them and call it a day, and have 4 slots to put somewhere else. 

The person is on the rather poor side. HOs might be asking a lot to slot. For RI, I would simply 4-slot Dark Watcher's Despair while skipping Recharge\End and Chance for -Recharge.

[Black Tangent]

Here's what I was able to come up with:

 

Botmaster2.0: Level 50 Magic Class_Mastermind

Character Profile:
------------------
Level 1: Inherent Inherent Brawl
    EMPTY
Level 1: Inherent Inherent prestige_DVD_Glidep
    EMPTY
Level 1: Inherent Inherent Sprint
    EMPTY
Level 2: Inherent Inherent Rest
    EMPTY
Level 1: Inherent Fitness Swift
    Crafted_Fly (50)
Level 1: Inherent Fitness Hurdle
    Crafted_Jump (50)
Level 1: Inherent Fitness Health
    Crafted_Panacea_F (50)
    Crafted_Heal (50)
    Crafted_Heal (50)
Level 1: Inherent Fitness Stamina
    Crafted_Power_Transfer_F (50)
    Crafted_Performance_Shifter_A (50+5)
    Crafted_Recovery (50+5)
    Crafted_Recovery (50+5)
Level 1: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Battle_Drones
    Attuned_Command_of_the_Mastermind_D (1)
    Attuned_Command_of_the_Mastermind_C (1)
    Superior_Attuned_Soulbound_Allegiance_F (1)
    Superior_Attuned_Soulbound_Allegiance_C (1)
    Crafted_Damage (50+5)
    Crafted_Accuracy (50+5)
Level 6: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Equip_Robot
    Crafted_Res_Damage (50)
Level 8: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Photon_Grenade
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 12: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Protector_Bots
    Superior_Attuned_Superior_Mark_of_Supremacy_D (1)
    Superior_Attuned_Superior_Mark_of_Supremacy_E (1)
    Attuned_Edict_of_the_Master_F (1)
    Attuned_Call_to_Arms_A (1)
    Attuned_Call_to_Arms_F (1)
    Synthetic_Hamidon_DeBuff_Accuracy (50)
Level 16: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Pulse_Rifle_Burst
    Crafted_Accuracy (50)
Level 18: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Repair
    Crafted_Heal (50)
Level 22: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Assault_Bot
    Crafted_Damage (50+5)
    Crafted_Damage (50+5)
    Crafted_Accuracy (50+5)
    Crafted_Accuracy (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
Level 26: Mastermind_Summon Robotics Upgrade_Robot
    Crafted_Heal (50)
Level 1: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Radiant_Aura
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_A (50)
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_F (50)
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_E (50+5)
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_B (50)
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_C (50)
    Crafted_Preventive_Medicine_D (50)
Level 2: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Radiation_Infection
    DSync_DeBuff_Endurance_Discount (53)
    DSync_DeBuff_Endurance_Discount (53)
Level 4: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Accelerate_Metabolism
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_A (50)
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_B (50)
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_C (50)
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_D (50)
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_E (50)
    Crafted_Efficacy_Adaptor_F (50)
Level 10: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Enervating_Field
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
Level 20: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Lingering_radiation
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
    Crafted_Snare (50)
    Crafted_Snare (50)
    Crafted_Ice_Mistrals_Torment_A (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
Level 24: Mastermind_Buff Radiation_Emission Choking_Cloud
    Crafted_Hold (50+5)
    Crafted_Hold (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
Level 14: Pool Teleportation Recall_Friend
    Crafted_Recharge (50)
Level 28: Pool Leadership Defense
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50+5)
    Crafted_Defense_Buff (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
Level 30: Pool Leadership Assault
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
Level 32: Pool Leadership Tactics
    Crafted_ToHit_Buff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_Buff (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
Level 35: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Night_Fall
    Crafted_Damage (50)
    Crafted_Damage (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_ToHit_DeBuff (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
Level 38: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Dark_Embrace
    Synthetic_Hamidon_Res_Damage_Endurance_Discount (53)
    Synthetic_Hamidon_Res_Damage_Endurance_Discount (53)
    Synthetic_Hamidon_Res_Damage_Endurance_Discount (51)
Level 41: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Oppressive_Gloom
    Crafted_Stun (50)
    Crafted_Stun (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50+5)
Level 44: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Soul_Tentacles
    Crafted_Immobilize (50)
    Crafted_Immobilize (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Damage (50)
    Crafted_Damage (50)
Level 47: Epic Mastermind_Soul_Mastery Soul_Storm
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Hold (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Endurance_Discount (50)
    Crafted_Accuracy (50)
    Crafted_Accuracy (50)
Level 49: Pool Flight Fly
    Crafted_Fly (50)
Level 0: Pool Flight Fly_Boost
------------------
 

 

botmaster-Respeced.txt

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Indirectly. 

 

The person is on the rather poor side. HOs might be asking a lot to slot. For RI, I would simply 4-slot Dark Watcher's Despair while skipping Recharge\End and Chance for -Recharge.

Honestly? The end/to hit/defense debuff HOs are probably cheaper than Dark Watcher's Despair

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Honestly? The end/to hit/defense debuff HOs are probably cheaper than Dark Watcher's Despair

Cheaper in that once you hit 50, then sure. But you can slot DWD at 21 and at a million per those aren't really breaking the bank. They would literally be among the cheapest crafted IOs they would be slotting considering the ones they have already shown in their build. They are already slotting ATOs, PVP IOs, and Purples. 

[Psyonico]

3 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Cheaper in that once you hit 50, then sure. But you can slot DWD at 21 and at a million per those aren't really breaking the bank.

True, but the OP indicated they were already 50

[Without_Pause]

1 minute ago, Psyonico said:

True, but the OP indicated they were already 50

Those set bonuses can add up as well. If a build is insanely tight, then sure, look at HOs, but I honestly don't ever slot them.

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, Black Tangent said:

Here's what I was able to come up with

 Again, if you can use Mid's do so. I feel like every power not actively talked about needs to be reworked. Again, does the power take Acc? Then slot for it. Immobilize is a terrible thing to slot for unless you are slotted with a damage proc IO from an Immobilize set. If a power does something like Hold, then look at the Hold sets and find out what set you want to go into there because doing this piecemeal via a forum isn't the way to make a coherent build. 

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Enhancement_Sets

 

[Apogee]

12 hours ago, Luminara said:

That build needs to be taken outside and shot.

 

He didn't slot for Accuracy so he would likely miss.

[Black Tangent]

7 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

 Again, if you can use Mid's do so. 

 

I have found it to be the most frustrating piece of software. 

 

I will readily admit that I am not really into studying percentages and values and squeezing every last drop out of enhancements; it's just not my thing.  Do I want the build to be awesome?  Sure!  Am I willing to spend hours to get in there? Not so much.    And yes, I was trying to make a build based on the advice given in toto above; do Frankenslotting for pets, 2 IOs maxed out is fine, etc.   If these are specific sets I *must* have then I will be glad to slot them, but that's contrary to what I was gleaning from the above.