Is it rude to suck at CoX?

[Burnt Umber]

So, a recent conversation I had in game reminded me of this old video essay I saw:

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/BKP1I7IocYU?si=50h5Xd66rU05Gdyz

 

The most salient points in the video for me here are:

 

• Video games like WoW (i.e., CoX) have paratexts* that affect how we the playerbase play the game.
• Paratexts allow players to share player knowledge, playstyles, and game mechanics/theories.
• Over time games can be "solved" by the playerbase and those solutions can become standardized and the expected playstyles.
• Bucking those playstyles, regardless of reason or merit, can isolate for that iconoclast and "rude" to other players.

 

For me, there is certainly a level at which CoX has been "solved" and that knowledge has disseminated within the playerbase, but I don't yet believe that making potentially "bad' choices in CoX is actually ethically bad for other players.  This is not to say that players are never refused a spot on a team or league because they are the right archetype or powerset or have made a possibly erroneous power choice.  Rather, that power/builds/etc. are not universally exclusionary:  a "petless" MM or "pacifist" defender can still can team to do trials or strike/task forces, and they have access to drops the same as everyone else.  Further, although there are different things done as speedruns, it is not the standard way of playing, so again those more unorthodox builds are still functional and have access to the same content as most other people.  Being optimized is not the standard or expectaion; CoX is for the most part a "casual" MMO.

 

But, I wonder if, as time goes on, the casualness of CoX will give-way and it will become "rude" to be less than optimal at CoX.

 

 

 

*As defined in the video, "paratext" is anything that pertains to the game that is not in the game intself. So that would include not only ParagonWiki, Mids, or City of Data, but also Developer or player posts on this board, a video guide on Youtube, or a Discord conversation.

Edited September 29 by Burnt Umber

[FupDup]

I'm going to lean towards "mostly not" but it depends. For normal content it rarely matters because the team will probably win easily enough. A lot of people are already unintentionally running builds that would make veterans cringe and it seems to be working fine for the most part. 

 

For special stuff like hardmode then I think the minimum bar comes up a bit, I don't think you should need 100% giga turbo optimized stuff with 69 procs slotted into every attack power, but definitely avoid the blatantly obvious troll builds like petless MMs or John Empathy Defenders and have a "moderately good" build set up. 

Edited September 29 by FupDup

[EmperorSteele]

No, but it may be rude to do so without asking first, though I'm sure most guys wouldn't have a problem wi- 

 

...oh, wow, wait, I think I misread the title. Nvmnd >_<

[Lunar Ronin]

Another, related video:

 

 

 

 

TL:DW: As the older a MMORPG gets, the more solved it becomes.  The more solved a MMORPG becomes, the more toxic its community gets.  It applies to City of Heroes as well.  The Homecoming community as a whole is more meta-focused and toxic than live was, because the game is 20 years old.  It's just not nearly to the level as other MMORPGs as City of Heroes is a more casual MMORPG.

[Snarky]

... I just started a Brute.  Who gives a crap about Strategy, Tactics, or what your teammates are doing/thinking?

[Skyhawke]

14 minutes ago, Snarky said:

... I just started a Brute.  Who gives a crap about Strategy, Tactics, or what your teammates are doing/thinking?

 

Brutes only need one strategy: Smash. Is it dead? No: smash again. Yes: smash to make sure.

 

As for is it rude to not be optimal at this game? I sure as hell hope not or I can be seen as very rude at times.

[High_Beam]

Its called society.

[Kaika]

I would say no, but it's a more nuanced then that

 

In this game I see it generally as "No one knows or care what you are doing unless it directly effects them". When was the last time you were in a team with PUGs and you actually cared what anyone else was doing, how well they built, how well they are doing their chosen role. For me at least the answer is, basically never, unless what they are doing is specifically getting in the way of me doing what I want to do. Knock back and power sets like energy blast are often considered controversial but no ones really talks about people who take flurry which is arguably one of the worst power picks in the whole game, because it really only effects the person using it. The reason no one really cares really come down to one major point:

 

City of Heroes is a very easy game, with a heavy focus on player freedom and creativity.

 

It always has been, it always will be. Due to the freedom of creativity the game was designed to foster, it was made in a way which removes the need for the normal trinity and roles, or a heavy need to rely on other players for success. Sure the game is made with the intention that players should need to team up for harder challenges but it rarely requires specific capability to succeed, and the few times it does are usually things that can be handled by a large amount of players. Hold, heals, taunt, ect. can either be commonly found in many powersets, or can be specifically taken from power pools if you feel the need to have them. It's also much harder to notice improvement and define methods of improving, when there are effectively several hundred thousand classes in the game. Sure AT generally define role but they don't always even in melee a SS/Invun brute plays alot differently then a TW/Bio, its hard to notice when someone is playing "sub-optimally". Compared to say another game I play like FF14 where classes are static and have very well defined roles, where I can tell if a PLD is playing their character correctly at a glance normally as I have the exact same kit when I'm using it.

 

Something other MMOs are huge on is end game content, and long term progression systems "Gearing and Raiding" effectively. While these systems do somewhat exist in CoH they are again extremely varied in how you can approach them, and don't really require a huge amount of skill or investment to succeed. If you wanted to you could level up to 50 and go full incarnate through just DFB. This means that the importance of things like Incarnate Trials is diminished compared to other MMO's raids, and its rather common for players to obtain full incarnate before even stepping into the higher end ones. On top of that, most things in this game are very mechanically simple, usually with mechanics not really progressing much in difficulty past "Don't stand in the bad", meaning that even in high end content the barrier for entry is rather low from a skill standpoint.

 

I think this is why the community seems to be a bit abrasive to people saying things like "Regen is bad" is because there is almost never a need to on efficiency to that level. Even in the highest levels of content or 4* challenge runs/speed runs most groups seem pretty open to inclusion unless they are specifically going for the meta, or the class kinda gets in the way(Sorry MMs >.<). As long as you can meet the requirements to make their strategy function (usually just barrier which everyone can get). Everything is viable is all content at some level, and outside of extreme exceptions, everything can work. How you build and play your character is seen more as personal preference and even difficulty selection then a fault of the player playing the character.

 

Long story short I don't think it will ever be rude to be bad at City of Heroes. Creativity and freedom of choice are far to important to this game the community.

 

Just don't knock my mobs out of melee range (PLEASE)

 

Edited September 29 by Kaika

[JKCarrier]

I'll admit, one of the reasons I don't team very often (besides just being kinda anti-social) is the fear that I'm going to screw things up for everyone else with my general ineptitude.

[Snarky]

15 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

I'll admit, one of the reasons I don't team very often (besides just being kinda anti-social) is the fear that I'm going to screw things up for everyone else with my general ineptitude.

[Neiska]

Some thoughts.

 

First, we all start somewhere. Sure, it's an old game, but not everyone played live either. People to this day are still discovering the game. Which to me, is a good thing.

Secondly, while there is an abundance of resources to pull from, I doubt there are many players who have done everything, played every class, every power, etc. Everyone is still learning something. Or some people may just be experimenting with something new.

Thirdly, you never know the other persons situation. I am a deaf player myself with a cochlear implant, but I don't wear it all the time. If I'm not wearing it, sometimes it does cause issues, like if looking for a glowie, I won't hear it. But the other person might be having a bad day. Might be on pain meds. Might have had a few adult beverages, so on. For whatever reason they may not be at the top of their performance.

Lastly, this is a free to play game. There are no trophies. No medals. Not even bragging rights. There is precious very little "new" achievements to be made. Everything you have done, someone else has already done. The game isn't a race to win. Its something we all play to enjoy. Now doing the best you can is all well and good, but not everyone minmaxes to the umpteenth degree, or subscribes to the meta. Some people like to do their own thing, even if it's subpar or not the kiss-your-elbow mathematically best for whatever situation.

 

Personally, my goal isn't to "win", it's to have fun. That might be farming. That might be hanging out with friends. That might be hunting Giant Monsters or beating up archvillians. It might be doing Ouro stuff. It might be volunteering to do missions that I don't need because I have seen people trying to fill the team for a bit. It might be trying a new build, or even just goofing off in the pocket D.

 

I have played many games where there is competition, and the attitude of "git gud" prevails. CoH is many things, but to me it is not one of them. It might be just me, but I just can't get worked up over pixels in a game old enough to vote. Sure, I may get frustrated with other players or hit a wall, but for me the fun is what matters most. Others may disagree, and thats okay. Its okay to try and min/max. This is just my opinions and thoughts about it.

 

TLDR: Is it okay to suck at a game? 

A: Does it matter? Is CoH "serious business?"

Edited September 30 by Neiska

[cranebump]

The community seems to be pretty forgiving. I know that Cit TF I was on this morning was, while I was trying to figure out how to target wormhole on my Troller.:-)

Edited September 30 by cranebump

[Sovera]

It's never rude to suck (at) CoX.

 

Unless doing starred content most everything can be soloed by one person so adding more is overkill. Adding 7 more people goes past overkill into silly nuclear damage territory. So if someone is playing a petless MM? Barely noticeable with or without them either way. As far as I'm concerned it's fine.

 

Sure, a melee heavy team with a Kin will finish a Synapse ten minutes earlier, and a Controller heavy (3+) team will finish ten minutes slower but over a period of an hour it's not like we'll notice it.

Edited September 30 by Sovera

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, Kaika said:

When was the last time you were in a team with PUGs and you actually cared what anyone else was doing, how well they built, how well they are doing their chosen role.

 

To be fair, I was just on a pug today and we were a bit short on support.  I was trying to time my spawn rushes with the tank, soaking a bit of aggro and help to keep his health from getting too low.  I'm sure the folks behind me were likewise strategizing how best to tackle the spawn and keep folks alive.

 

The game isn't hard and doesn't require perfect play.  Nor does it require strict adherence to some sort of script.  But I think I've never not cared, I'm always at least trying to do something good to support the team.

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

I'll admit, one of the reasons I don't team very often (besides just being kinda anti-social) is the fear that I'm going to screw things up for everyone else with my general ineptitude.

Everyone else has general ineptitude? 

Why am I asking? Of course they do!

 

14 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

 

The game isn't hard and doesn't require perfect play.  Nor does it require strict adherence to some sort of script.  

 

Not should it (in most circumstances).  WOW introduced me to the concept of raiding. When a high ranking player described it to me, I learned it required players to be at specific spots or the raid mechanics would kill ya. It required specific rotations of powers. Many were required to hold to specific raid schedules or be penalized.  I steered well clear clear of all that.

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

To be fair, I was just on a pug today and we were a bit short on support.  I was trying to time my spawn rushes with the tank, soaking a bit of aggro and help to keep his health from getting too low.  I'm sure the folks behind me were likewise strategizing how best to tackle the spawn and keep folks alive.

 

The game isn't hard and doesn't require perfect play.  Nor does it require strict adherence to some sort of script.  But I think I've never not cared, I'm always at least trying to do something good to support the team.

 

Oh for sure, I think the game is easy, but it's not entirely bereft of challenge or anything even at the more casual levels of play. Sometimes you do need to stop and think strategy and such, enemies can vary wildly in strengths and weaknesses so sometimes you have to think outside of the box. It's a core part of the game that when problems arise there are usually many was to tackle them. It allows for a lot of creative solutions, like in your case splitting the aggro to help manage the alpha strike and this kind of creativity is exactly what the game is made to foster. Problem solving like this working is a big part of the reason why the game is so open many play styles and skill levels.

 

Quick Edit because I'm bad at telling when my thoughts are together:

To elaborate a bit more, other MMOs, or at least the ones I played, are usually much more rigid on how to solve a problem. Even if there are theoretically many ways to go about it, the player base will often come to one or two ways to handle a given problem. On top of that there is usually alot less variety to any given encounter. It might not play out exactly the same every time, but it often is far more predictable then CoH ever is. Usually they have some way to enforce a specific group of roles on a group, with mechanics that play out roughly the same every time, and you generally have a idea of what to expect. Compared to CoH where your group comp can vary wildly, causing the same encounter to play out very differently, and on top of that EVERYTHING is layered in large chunks of RNG. Groups of Arachnos for example can be filled with fairly non threatening crab spiders or loaded to the brim with fortunatas, giving encounters alot of variance. In order for the game to function it needs alot of ways to solve problems that other MMOs just don't really need. Inspirations I'm fairly certain were the devs direct response to this, and likely the reason they remain so powerful, but there are many other ways to turn the tide. Sure there is some room for expression and creativity in other MMOs but often thats only when people mess up. When I say the game fosters creativity, this is what I mean, it gives you the freedom to be creative by offering many different routes of problem solving. People have gone from 1-50 using just brawl since there are so many ways to get by in this game if you are just a bit creative about it.

Edited September 30 by Kaika

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Burnt Umber said:

But, I wonder if, as time goes on, the casualness of CoX will give-way and it will become "rude" to be less than optimal at CoX.

 

If it hasn't happened after 20 years, it's not going to.

[JKCarrier]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

Alas, not everyone is as sanguine (no pun intended) about bad PUGs as you are, Snarks. 😉 

[High_Beam]

11 hours ago, Snarky said:

This GIF is so gloriously nuanced when you factor in what you know about little Alice.

[Crysis]

I’m rather pleasantly surprised when I meet someone in-game who either a) never played it back on Live or b) did play it on Live but recently ‘rediscovered’ it.  

 

Yesterday I did an ITF with someone who had never done an ITF before and had no idea how IO set bonuses worked.  They were on a Tank which, thankfully, can handle a lot of damage even poorly slotted but it was obvious as a Tanker they’d never dealt with more than one spawn at a time.  By the second mission, they were repeatedly face-planting due to ambushes.  So we started chatting during rest of missions (I was on a MM) and I just told him to put himself on follow on my Commando and attack stuff near it and I’d keep him upright for remainder of TF.

 

Hey, I love new players….free bonus pets!  Too bad I have to use chat to command them though.

 

This game ain’t toxic.  Just players who are uninformed and used to playing solo make it that way.

[Ukase]

Is it rude to not play at some notion of better than average level? 

For my money, that depends. There are a collection of ...well...reasons people have for not being very good. 


Goals: "It's not my desire to whip out my e-peen for all to see. I'm just here to unwind after work".  

 

If I'm being honest, I do grasp the mental energy drain some parts of this game can have while playing. The ITF, with all that senseless screaming, can take me from being able to mow my grass, row 10k in 36 minutes, and a load of laundry to pulling out a tub of ice cream instead. The ITF is arguably my least desired activity in game because of that stupid screaming. Probably why they do it. I can't imagine it would be fun in real life to fight with people screaming like that, let alone in game. 

Still, unless I'm up for it, I avoid it. It's only a common courtesy for players who are just looking to "unwind" to not put themselves in situations where reading comprehension and fast key strokes are going to be recommended for best results. 
So, if you're wanting to unwind, and asking for an invite on an MoLRSF, you might be rude - if you're not going to look at the activity as something that deserves your energy. Badges are important to some folks. Strangely, very important to some folks. If you sign up for one and don't take your character's survival seriously, you are being rude. Granted, nobody wants to be the player that screws up. It's a mistake, after all. But, some folks while they don't want to screw up, take the mindset, "it's just a game". And while that's true, it's also time spent that went for nothing because someone couldn't be bothered to pay closer attention. That is time nobody can ever get back. That's even worse than wasting 10 bucks on a cup of coffee when you could have made it at home for 35 cents. I can always earn more money. I cannot get the time back. 

 

It's too early for a wall of text. I could come up with 5 or 6 more cases where people are probably being rude by being too cavalier about how their play impacts my play. (and it's certainly possible for the opposite to be true) 

Short answer, in some cases, yes, it's rude to not be a competent player. But not all cases. 

[roleki]

I usually build to solo at (or as near as possible to) 4/8, so it mostly doesn't matter if 6 of my 7 teammates are just farts in a bubble.  If the team/league lead is a buho, then there's potential for an issue.

[tidge]

15 hours ago, Burnt Umber said:

For me, there is certainly a level at which CoX has been "solved" and that knowledge has disseminated within the playerbase, but I don't yet believe that making potentially "bad' choices in CoX is actually ethically bad for other players.  This is not to say that players are never refused a spot on a team or league because they are the right archetype or powerset or have made a possibly erroneous power choice.  Rather, that power/builds/etc. are not universally exclusionary:  a "petless" MM or "pacifist" defender can still can team to do trials or strike/task forces, and they have access to drops the same as everyone else.  Further, although there are different things done as speedruns, it is not the standard way of playing, so again those more unorthodox builds are still functional and have access to the same content as most other people.  Being optimized is not the standard or expectaion; CoX is for the most part a "casual" MMO.

 

But, I wonder if, as time goes on, the casualness of CoX will give-way and it will become "rude" to be less than optimal at CoX.

 

The Homecoming version of CoX is almost entirely divorced from requiring specific types of characters, power choices, or even play styles (including: solo v. teaming) to achieve most everything in the game.

 

Ethics has nothing to do with these. A player would pretty much have to work really hard at griefing other players for ethics to come into the conversation, IMO.

[Greycat]

16 hours ago, Burnt Umber said:

But, I wonder if, as time goes on, the casualness of CoX will give-way and it will become "rude" to be less than optimal at CoX.

 

 

No.

 

Sure, some people will get their undies in a twist at it or at something they don't like, but that's generally just rudeness on *their* part, not the other player's. And I don't see anything in this game changing that dramatically as a general rule.

[PyroBeetle]

CoX will always be a game that is supportive of creativity over min/max ideology. People still roll ATs and characters that are seen as less than ideal, and they function just fine in a team. Most new players, and Homecoming still gets some, sense this, and are mostly willing to listen and learn.

 

Is it bad to suck at CoX, no, but to refuse to follow simple commands to make your group's functioning easier, that is bad in any game. And CoX does have it's fair share of group troll powers, looking at you group fly, that it would be inexcusable to use if it is negatively affecting your group, but by and large, people are willing to listen and adjust their playstyle to accommodate the group they are in.