Twilight Grasp should apply a HoT instead of a direct heal

[gabrilend]

Twilight Grasp is an ability in the darkness support set. Currently the ability applies a debuff to a foe and heals allies around your character. The description for the ability is this:

 

"You channel Negative Energy from the Netherworld through yourself to a targeted foe. Twilight Grasp drains the power from that target and slowly transfers it to you and all nearby allies. The targeted foe's chance to hit, damage and regeneration rate are reduced, while you and your nearby allies are healed."

 

Darkness and shadows are all about subtlety. Not just because they hide your nocturnal activities from wary eyes, but also because they creep every so slowly over the landscape as darkness falls, their ever-advancing approach heralding the sunset before the last glimmers of our star wink out of sight beyond the mountain, the ocean, or the ground you stand upon.

 

Because the description says "slowly" I do believe that changing Twilight Grasp to a +regen buff or perhaps a HoT (Heal over Time) could fit with the theme a bit better. And frankly there are quite a bit more direct heals than there are HoTs in CoH, so more diversity could be nice.

 

The difference between those two options as I understand it is that +regen is based on the target's maximum HP, while a HoT is a flat number of health restored. In order to reduce the impact of this change, my opinion is that a HoT may be preferred.

[Indystruck]

Or just remove the slowly instead. I think that's probably easier.

[Rudra]

Yeah, I would rather they just removed the "slowly" text. Leave Twilight Grasp alone please.

[gabrilend]

32 minutes ago, Indystruck said:

Or just remove the slowly instead. I think that's probably easier.

 

Easy isn't always better! And I gave a reason why "slowly" fits thematically in the italics. Plus if the HoT was the same duration as the draining effect, it would make even more thematic sense because you're draining the life-force from an enemy and being drained actively hampers their combat abilities.

 

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yeah, I would rather they just removed the "slowly" text. Leave Twilight Grasp alone please.

 

Why? Why leave it alone? What's wrong with the idea? Do you enjoy the direct heal more than a HoT, and if so, can you please explain why? Is it more useful in battle or do you like it for thematic reasons? Are you concerned that the HoT would need to be increased in healing power in order to match the burst of direct healing that it currently has? Or are you worried that more HoTs will decrease the spikiness of the health bar "whack-a-mole" game that is healing in MMOs? Or are you just being contrarian like always

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Why? Why leave it alone? What's wrong with the idea?

Because when I go to heal myself, my pets, or anyone else with me, I need that heal now, not progressively over time.

 

19 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Do you enjoy the direct heal more than a HoT, and if so, can you please explain why?

Yes, I prefer the direct heal over a HoT. Like I said, when I go to heal someone, regardless of who that someone is, I need that heal to affect them immediately. Dark doesn't have an array of heals to fit any given situation, and Twilight Grasp is a PBAoE, not a ranged heal. So if I'm not alone and someone needs that heal? First I have to get near them, and then use the power while praying they don't run off to smack something else before its effect kicks in. (Especially true of pets.) Now if it were to be a HoT instead, the likelihood of that character dying increases. (Especially for pets, since the T1s are already more fragile for being 2 levels lower than you and probably won't survive long enough for that HoT to save them.) HoTs are fine in sets like Nature Affinity because it has 4 HoTs, 1 of which also has a direct heal. So sets like that can layer their HoTs. Dark Miasma has 1 heal, and aside from Shadow Fall's PBAoE effect, everything else is applied to the enemy. (And everyone seems to prefer to target and murder whatever enemy is being used as the anchor no matter how you try to set it up so that they won't.) So converting Twilight Grasp to a HoT is a serious nerf to the set.

 

26 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Or are you worried that more HoTs will decrease the spikiness of the health bar "whack-a-mole" game that is healing in MMOs?

Twilight Grasp is less "whack-a-mole" by virtue of being a PBAoE. It's primary challenge is being within the 20 feet radius of everyone that may need to be healed.

 

30 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Or are you just being contrarian like always

Do you have a defense other than "you just don't like it because you're you"?

[biostem]

I'd also argue that, especially in the heat of combat, the time between the windup as you're casting the power and when the smoky effect travels from the enemy back to you, is quite a bit longer than any of the other sets' healing powers that don't require a target...

Edited October 12 by biostem

[gabrilend]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Because when I go to heal myself, my pets, or anyone else with me, I need that heal now, not progressively over time.

 

That's an argument against HoTs in general. The inverse to this argument is that HoTs can be better if you expect your allies to take damage in the near future, but they aren't currently damaged. Both direct heals and HoTs have their uses.

 

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yes, I prefer the direct heal over a HoT. Like I said, when I go to heal someone, regardless of who that someone is, I need that heal to affect them immediately. Dark doesn't have an array of heals to fit any given situation, and Twilight Grasp is a PBAoE, not a ranged heal. So if I'm not alone and someone needs that heal? First I have to get near them, and then use the power while praying they don't run off to smack something else before its effect kicks in. (Especially true of pets.) Now if it were to be a HoT instead, the likelihood of that character dying increases. (Especially for pets, since the T1s are already more fragile for being 2 levels lower than you and probably won't survive long enough for that HoT to save them.) HoTs are fine in sets like Nature Affinity because it has 4 HoTs, 1 of which also has a direct heal. So sets like that can layer their HoTs. Dark Miasma has 1 heal, and aside from Shadow Fall's PBAoE effect, everything else is applied to the enemy. (And everyone seems to prefer to target and murder whatever enemy is being used as the anchor no matter how you try to set it up so that they won't.) So converting Twilight Grasp to a HoT is a serious nerf to the set.

 

There are some similar sets which don't have any heals at all, and they work just fine. I think it's okay if Dark Miasma only has a single heal, and I don't see any difference between the value added by a direct heal or a HoT. To me they feel like they'd be used in 80% of the same circumstances, and generally be roughly as useful as one another.

 

While it's true that characters are more likely to die while being healed by a HoT versus a direct heal, I'd offer a counter perspective and say that HoTs tend to be more efficient and deliver more healing throughput because they have a reduced risk of overhealing. The tradeoff between burst and efficiency has long been a balancing act for any MMO that has a healer class, and CoH is no different.

 

I see your point about layering HoTs. Nature of course has a theme of growth and renewal, and HoTs fit in quite well with that. Shadows, by contract, have creeping gloom, and I think HoTs fit in well there, as well.

 

In terms of layering HoTs to provide high amounts of healing in a short amount of time, I do think you're right that a HoT would not be as useful. However... I think that's alright. Twilight Grasp is the most important ability for Dark Miasma, and it's available at level 1. Not only does it debuff the enemy quite nicely, but it also tops up your allies / minions. I think by switching the ability to a HoT, you might be able to reduce the set's reliance on the ability by decreasing it's "punchiness" and sudden, burst impact power in favor of a more overpowering and oppressive approach.

 

To me, the current approach is like the way the shadows advance after an explosion like a firework. If you look anywhere BUT the sky, you'll see the darkness creep forth with remarkable speed.

 

In contrast, the proposed approach is more like the shadows of the trees growing longer and longer, forming great creeping fingers that siphon your strength and give it to the wolves and thieves who creep about searching for blood.

 

Both evoke darkness, but in different ways.

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

 

... Or are you just being contrarian like always

 

 

Do you have a defense other than "you just don't like it because you're you"?

 

 

teehee it's my post, I'm on offense this time, you're the one defending the status quo after all 😉

 

and yes my argument has been presented, I can provide clarifications, answer questions, or address concerns as needed. Please reply if you have any.

[gabrilend]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'd also argue that, especially in the heat of combat, the time between the windup as you're casting the power and when the smoky effect travels from the enemy back to you, is quite a bit longer than any of the other sets' healing powers that don't require a target...

 

Yes that is true! The windup is quite long. I personally am alright with it, I prefer animation windups to cast-times in other games. Feels more intentional, because in other games it's often easy to break a cast-time ability by moving. In CoH you literally can't move while casting, which I always thought was kind of nice.

 

When considering the windup and the concerns raised by @Rudra above, I do believe that changing Twilight Grasp to be a HoT would increase the time before a critically wounded ally is brought to a stable state, which would be a nerf. However, I also believe that changing Twilight Grasp to be a HoT would decrease the impact of the windup animation by allowing a player to pre-emptively cast it, rather than being forced to cast an ability with a long animation time while under pressure.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

I do believe that changing Twilight Grasp to be a HoT would increase the time before a critically wounded ally is brought to a stable state, which would be a nerf. However, I also believe that changing Twilight Grasp to be a HoT would decrease the impact of the windup animation by allowing a player to pre-emptively cast it, rather than being forced to cast an ability with a long animation time while under pressure.

Generally, at least IMO, I feel that a HoT is better when used in conjunction with burst healing, kind of like pain domination's soothing aura.  I've been playing a seismic/earth blaster recently, and having only a HoT from mud bath definitely shrinks the margin for error vs having a form of burst healing available;  Perhaps once I get their defense up, that periodic healing will be enough, but now, (and with a blaster's smaller HP pool), doesn't give you much breathing room if and when things go south... 

[Rudra]

52 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

hat's an argument against HoTs in general.

No, that is an argument against HoTs as the only means of healing. Even Nature Affinity has a direct heal, and it has 4 HoTs. That direct heal gives the player the ability to tell an ally "You're not dead yet! I've got you!" whereas a HoT says "If you can hold out a little longer, you'll be okay!". If the set has multiple heal powers, even if they are mostly HoTs, like Nature Affinity does, your character can go "I've got you! You're fine!" with that direct heal and then follow up with "They aren't going to hurt you any more!" with the HoT further bolstering them. Dark Miasma only has the 1 heal. Sets with no heals have other powers you can apply to your allies to keep them alive. Like Force Field where you can layer levels of protection on your allies and mitigate the need for heals in the first place. Dark Miasma is all about debuffs. Even Shadow Fall is a debuff, it just also happens to have a buff in it as well. And without the other tools to use on your allies, relying on debuffing your enemies, unless your anchor is a GM, you're going to be constantly throwing new debuffs on targets to protect the team, which the team will promptly kill because debuff anchor visual seems to mean "Kill this one NOW!!!!!" to most players, so that heal becomes more important. You lack the ability to directly fortify the team, and when they take damage, if you only have a HoT, they are likely going to die unless you are spectacularly fast at re-applying those debuffs to whatever is about to imminently terminate that ally. (Or pet.) (Edit: And if you think heals in this game are 'whack-a-mole'? Try preemptively debuffing specific enemies to protect specific allies. Yeah... not a nightmare I want to deal with....)

 

Had your request been "Maybe add a HoT to Twilight Grasp", I would have said "That is probably on the OP side", and then shut up after any counter-arguments. Because it can still work, even if the direct heal part is lowered slightly to compensate. Simply converting to a HoT though? That requires the character to lean forward and preemptively "heal" allies to protect them, which is not as viable a strategy with a heal that requires an enemy to pull health from, and hampers the set's ability to keep characters alive since it would now lack any direct heal ability and only have a HoT. "Sorry, Rockford. If only you could have absorbed that 800 HP hit you ate after my HoT started to affect you, you would have been fine. But hey! If you had, then I wouldn't have wasted part of my heal over-healing you!" doesn't work for me. I don't care if I over-heal allies or pets. I only care that my allies or pets needed an injection of more health and I was able to provide it before that next hit finished them.

 

As far as theme goes? Sure, shadows and darkness can be viewed as a creeping progression like you say, but they can also be as sudden as blowing out the candle. So from a thematic point of view? Twilight Grasp as is fits darkness just as well as a more progressive approach like a HoT, except with the ability to keep allies/pets that suddenly need the help for any reason alive where a HoT cannot.

Edited October 12 by Rudra

[kelika2]

I dont mind dumping Black Hole in favor of a heal over time power

make it something like the more live targets hit the more HoT you get.  like you hit 10 targets and you get 10 different little HoT effects on you

[lemming]

8 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I dont mind dumping Black Hole in favor of a heal over time power

make it something like the more live targets hit the more HoT you get.  like you hit 10 targets and you get 10 different little HoT effects on you

I'm in agreement with kelika2 here.   Mainly because of Rudra's arguments that Dark Miasma doesn't have more heals and Black Hole is a very situational power that is often skipped.

[gabrilend]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As far as theme goes? Sure, shadows and darkness can be viewed as a creeping progression like you say, but they can also be as sudden as blowing out the candle. So from a thematic point of view? Twilight Grasp as is fits darkness just as well as a more progressive approach like a HoT, except with the ability to keep allies/pets that suddenly need the help for any reason alive where a HoT cannot.

 

Yep, you're right, they both fit and can be justified thematically. We agree here. I like the candle better than the firework analogy to be honest.

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

... Dark Miasma is all about debuffs. Even Shadow Fall is a debuff, it just also happens to have a buff in it as well... You lack the ability to directly fortify the team, and when they take damage, if you only have a HoT, they are likely going to die unless you are spectacularly fast at re-applying those debuffs to whatever is about to imminently terminate that ally. (Or pet.)

 

Well, the debuffs should ideally be up before the ally takes damage. But I get what you mean. The long animation wind-up plays a part in this as well.

 

If Twilight Grasp was changed to a HoT instead of a flat direct heal, then it would emphasize the debuff aspect of the power. Right now, the power is primarily used as a heal, and the debuff is often an afterthought. If the heal was applied over time, then not only would the team be fortified with extra health, applied over time, but that health would be directly drawn from the enemy's strength, meaning the debuff is now the most important part of the ability. I do believe that is desired functionality.

 

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Had your request been "Maybe add a HoT to Twilight Grasp", I would have said "That is probably on the OP side", and then shut up after any counter-arguments. Because it can still work, even if the direct heal part is lowered slightly to compensate. Simply converting to a Hot though? That requires the character to lean forward and preemptively "heal" allies to protect them, which is not as viable a strategy with a heal that requires an enemy to pull health from, and hampers the set's ability to keep characters alive since it would now lack any direct heal ability and only have a HoT...

 

Well, that's a good suggestion, thanks for bringing it up. "Converting part of Twilight Grasp's direct heal into a HoT applied over the duration of the applied debuff" would be a middle-ground, but I'm not sure if the added complexity would be a good thing for such a low-level power. I'm sure seasoned players would have no problem with it, but to a new player it might be a little more difficult to grasp. New players aside, I think this middle ground would be a decent starting point, though I tend to prefer full measures over half-assing things because people can't agree.

 

Since Dark Miasma is a debuff set primarily, I think it follows that the debuffs should be emphasized, while other supporting aspects like healing should be minimized in impact. The few buffing powers that Dark Miasma has tend to lean toward enveloping your allies in darkness, and that darkness is pervasive and consistent. I think this approach is mirrored in many of the other offensive powers as well - they are all applied over time. Except perhaps Black Hole? That one's a weird one.

 

I don't believe there's anything wrong with a primarily debuff oriented powerset only having one heal, and I don't believe there's anything wrong with that one heal being a HoT.

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

I dont mind dumping Black Hole in favor of a heal over time power

 

What would be interesting would be to make it some sort of toggle, (either a PBAoE or anchored on an enemy), that deals some minor NE DoT, whilst simultaneously providing a HoT to allies.

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

but I'm not sure if the added complexity would be a good thing for such a low-level power. I'm sure seasoned players would have no problem with it, but to a new player it might be a little more difficult to grasp.

Please tell me you aren't being serious. If a new player for some reason struggles with a direct heal that also heals over time, how would that theoretical player manage applying just a HoT effectively? Managing a stream of small tics of healing to keep allies alive is far more complex than simply applying a direct heal, even if that heal also has a HoT component.

 

14 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Since Dark Miasma is a debuff set primarily, I think it follows that the debuffs should be emphasized, while other supporting aspects like healing should be minimized in impact. The few buffing powers that Dark Miasma has tend to lean toward enveloping your allies in darkness, and that darkness is pervasive and consistent. I think this approach is mirrored in many of the other offensive powers as well - they are all applied over time.

You see, this is where we differ and why I can't accept Twilight Grasp as a HoT. You see Dark Miasma's powers as a progressive thing where I see it as an immediate, continuous thing. I want my enemies to be slower and take more damage? I throw a Tar Patch and they are immediately slowed and rendered more vulnerable until they leave it. I want my enemies to be less accurate? I throw a Darkest Night and they are suddenly near blind until they or I die. I want them not attacking at all? I throw a Fearsome Stare or Petrifying Gaze, and they are immediately cowed or held. I want a group of them out of my way? I throw a Black Hole and they are immediately removed from the equation until the Black Hole goes away. There is nothing slow or progressive in Dark Miasma's power set. It is all about immediately, negatively affecting your enemies. So its heal likewise immediately, negatively affects its target while also immediately, positively affecting nearby allies.

 

Edited October 12 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "way".

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

What would be interesting would be to make it some sort of toggle, (either a PBAoE or anchored on an enemy), that deals some minor NE DoT, whilst simultaneously providing a HoT to allies.

That... is actually a pretty cool idea.... Though it would be a minor effect for the DoT/HoT since the affected targets are effectively removed from battle.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

That... is actually a pretty cool idea.... Though it would be a minor effect for the DoT/HoT since the affected targets are effectively removed from battle.

Well, probably would need to eliminate the phase effect, unless this only applied while within its AoE, which would, IMHO, cause more frustration, especially since it's a toggle...

[gabrilend]

36 minutes ago, biostem said:

Well, probably would need to eliminate the phase effect, unless this only applied while within its AoE, which would, IMHO, cause more frustration, especially since it's a toggle...

 

Maybe it could be a regular power that turns into a toggle while it's on cooldown? I'm imagining a debuff applied to a single enemy, and a "pulsing" healing wave that triggers every half second or so.

 

I quite like this idea btw. Toggle powers absolutely fit in line with the more regulated, measured, and predictable playstyle that I'm trying to implement.

 

A toggle power which applies a debuff to a foe and gave a healing aura would be pretty nice. However you'd have to make it turn off if the enemy died, which would interrupt the healing unexpectedly. That's the only issue I can think of right now. I'm a big fan of toggles so I'm in favor 🥰

 

42 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Please tell me you aren't being serious. If a new player for some reason struggles with a direct heal that also heals over time, how would that theoretical player manage applying just a HoT effectively? Managing a stream of small tics of healing to keep allies alive is far more complex than simply applying a direct heal, even if that heal also has a HoT component.

 

Hehe you're right, I can't imagine anyone who's savvy with video games having a problem with it. It's important to consider all angles of a problem however, and this technically would be a very minor concern. But we both agree, I don't think it's large enough to merit further discussion which is why I only mentioned it in passing.

 

44 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You see, this is where we differ and why I can't accept Twilight Grasp as a HoT. You see Dark Miasma's powers as a progressive thing where I see it as an immediate, continuous thing. I want my enemies to be slower and take more damage? I throw a Tar Patch and they are immediately slowed and rendered more vulnerable until they leave it. I want my enemies to be less accurate? I throw a Darkest Night and they are suddenly near blind until they or I die. I want them not attacking at all? I throw a Fearsome Stare or Petrifying Gaze, and they are immediately cowed or held. I want a group of them out of my way? I throw a Black Hole and they are immediately removed from the equation until the Black Hole goes away. There is nothing slow or progressive in Dark Miasma's power set. It is all about immediately, negatively affecting your enemies. So its heal likewise immediately, negatively affects its target while also immediately, positively affecting nearby allies.

 

You're right, those are all immediate effects. But they all affect an enemy over time - just like a candle that is snuffed brings forth the dark with rapidity, so too are the effects are striking and immediate. But they take place over a long period of time. After all, very debuff has a duration, and during that duration the enemy is suppressed like a blanket of dark fog enveloped them.

 

The debuffs are applied slowly, over their duration. For example, Tar Patch, an ability which places a swirling font of darkness on the ground that slows nearby enemies over time. Or Darkest Night, which shrouds an enemy in darkness, obscuring the attack capabilities of them and their nearby allies for a period of time.

 

I think the "fastest" ability (whatever that means) would be Howling Twilight, which has no component applied over time. I think.

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

The debuffs are applied slowly, over their duration. For example, Tar Patch, an ability which places a swirling font of darkness on the ground that slows nearby enemies over time. Or Darkest Night, which shrouds an enemy in darkness, obscuring the attack capabilities of them and their nearby allies for a period of time.

No, they aren't applied slowly over their duration. They are applied immediately, as limited by cast time, with ongoing effects. A sustained effect is not a slowly applied effect, it is simply sustained. Now if say Darkest Night, to use as an example, applied a -2% damage debuff and -1% ToHit debuff that increased over time to the power's base -22.5% damage debuff and -11.25% ToHit debuff, then it would be applied slowly over its duration. However, it doesn't work that way. Darkest Night immediately applies its -22.5% damage debuff and -11.25% ToHit debuff after the 0.5 second wait time of its 3.17 second cast time. So you are applying the power's full effect even before you finish getting through the power activation animation. And that time before effect is found in every power in the game. The only thing that keeps Darkest Night from achieving its full effect upon being used is the target's resistances to those debuffs if the target has any. Same thing with Tar Patch. 1.067 seconds into Tar Patch's 3.1 second cast time, you are already applying the power's full -72% run speed, -1000% fly, -50,000% jump height, and -22.5% damage resistance (as resisted by the target's appropriate defenses if any) without any build up. Same thing with every other power in Dark Miasma. There is no progressive application of effect, just sustained application of effect.

 

Edit:

29 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

I think the "fastest" ability (whatever that means) would be Howling Twilight, which has no component applied over time. I think.

Howling Twilight is actually a great debuff power. It just also happens to be a great rez. Howling Twilight applies a 15 second Mag 3 fear effect for 15 seconds, -50% jump height, jump speed, running speed, and flight speed for 30 seconds, -500% target regeneration for 30 seconds, and a Mag 2 Stun for 15 seconds. I use Howling Twilight specifically as a debuff when the fight starts going south before focusing on spamming heals. (Edit again: Conveniently, it also gets my allies back on their feet as long as I had the sense to be near their corpses. Which also means my follow up heals ensure they stay alive long enough to get their toggles back up or their pets back out or to get out of range.)

 

Edited October 12 by Rudra

[Kaika]

I see no reason to change a power thats been perfectly functional, practical, and generally well liked, in a set thats also functional, practical, and generally well liked.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Shin Magmus]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:47 AM, Indystruck said:

Or just remove the slowly instead. I think that's probably easier.

You're some kind of genius. 

[Snarky]

On 10/11/2024 at 5:31 PM, gabrilend said:

Why? Why leave it alone? What's wrong with the idea? Do you enjoy the direct heal more than a HoT, and if so, can you please explain why? 

Do you really need a detailed explanation with diagrams why having the heal be instant rather than slow is more effective in combat?  You cannot open that mind of yours and use just a little imagination to guess why this might be beneficial?

[mistagoat]

On 10/12/2024 at 2:48 AM, Kaika said:

I see no reason to change a power thats been perfectly functional, practical, and generally well liked, in a set thats also functional, practical, and generally well liked.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

This is where I land on it too. Dark Miasma is already in a very good place and I don't believe any changes are needed at this time.

If one were to put a gun to my head and demand 1 change to Dark Miasma, I'd be much more interested in pursuing biostems suggestion. Black Hole is lame...

[Shin Magmus]

On 10/14/2024 at 12:21 PM, Snarky said:

Do you really need a detailed explanation with diagrams why having the heal be instant rather than slow is more effective in combat?  You cannot open that mind of yours and use just a little imagination to guess why this might be beneficial?

     Snarky, if I talked that way to someone I'd have my comment deleted (and worse).  Be Snarky To Each Other.

[Seed22]

22 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Snarky, if I talked that way to someone I'd have my comment deleted (and worse).  Be Snarky To Each Other.

According to my tinfoil hat and chair that speaks to me in my mind, CoH seems to have a very biased moderation practice varying from GM to GM with little to no consistency in application. 
 

But thats just tinfoil musing, pay it no mind