New archetype: Captain - Mastermind primary with melee attacks, scrapper secondary powers which affect both the player and their pets

[gabrilend]

see title.

[Greycat]

I see title. What are you talking about? More clarification is helpful to fully flesh out what you have in mind. It doesn't have to be fully detailed with damage scales, etc. but a bit more description on example powers and how they're affecting things helps.

[Communistpenguin]

Probably the biggest issue I would see with this, is what pets? I would say we would need MM pet customization first, so that a "Captain" set would have more flexibility in pets. 

[Chris24601]

14 hours ago, Greycat said:

I see title. What are you talking about? More clarification is helpful to fully flesh out what you have in mind. It doesn't have to be fully detailed with damage scales, etc. but a bit more description on example powers and how they're affecting things helps.

I think what he’s saying is that the Captain concept would replace the personal ranged powers in the MM set with melee options (so the ninja set would get two katana single targets and an AoE).

 

The secondary would be an armor set scaled to MMs numbers that would extend the set’s defenses at some level to the pets. So if you took Super Reflexes your Ninja Pets would get some fraction of the personal defense bonuses applied to them as well… or if you took Regen a fraction of the better regeneration would apply to the pets, etc.).

 

I’m not convinced it’s viable myself. Pets are generally so glitchy that just making them tougher won’t do nearly as much for their survival as a good support set and situational awareness will. The MM’s own damage numbers would similarly be so lackluster as to make the armor set largely redundant for them (they’ll rarely catch enough personal aggro to need that level of mitigation) and, unlike the MM, would not have the ability to support non-pet allies with their secondary.

 

I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think it works well mechanically as is.

 

I think for a melee MM to be truly viable you’d need to do some considerable reworking of the pets so that the MM can be a greater percentage of the AT’s total DPS… maybe more like a “Three Musketeers” (2 pets plus the PCs) than the MM’s “Seven Man Band” to allow a greater percentage of the damage dealt to be via the character of themselves (say half with two pets accounting for a quarter each).

 

Fewer, but individually stronger, pets would also make an armor set affecting them more effective (the lowest tier MM pets are so squishy that even 75% resistance wouldn’t add that much survivability) and might make that concept viable.

 

Another major factor is determining which melee set should apply to each MM set. Ninjas is strait forward enough with the katana, but what’s the weapon set for demons? Mercenaries? Robots?

 

Basically, the thread title isn’t really an idea… it’s the seed of an idea that needs a ton of fleshing out to make it into something potentially actionable.

[gabrilend]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Basically, the thread title isn’t really an idea… it’s the seed of an idea that needs a ton of fleshing out to make it into something potentially actionable.

 

Thank you for helping me flesh it out. It's much easier to work through problems in a discussion rather than a proposal, I find.

 

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I think what she’s saying is that the Captain concept would replace the personal ranged powers in the MM set with melee options (so the ninja set would get two katana single targets and an AoE).

 

The secondary would be an armor set scaled to MMs numbers that would extend the set’s defenses at some level to the pets. So if you took Super Reflexes your Ninja Pets would get some fraction of the personal defense bonuses applied to them as well… or if you took Regen a fraction of the better regeneration would apply to the pets, etc.).

 

Yes this is exactly what I was proposing.

 

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I’m not convinced it’s viable myself. Pets are generally so glitchy that just making them tougher won’t do nearly as much for their survival as a good support set and situational awareness will. The MM’s own damage numbers would similarly be so lackluster as to make the armor set largely redundant for them (they’ll rarely catch enough personal aggro to need that level of mitigation) and, unlike the MM, would not have the ability to support non-pet allies with their secondary.

 

Pet's aren't necessarily glitchy! You just gotta handle them better. Which obviously is difficult, but that's part of the charm of being a Mastermind.

 

This would be a class more similar to scrapper than defender, so it's okay that there aren't support abilities.

 

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I think for a melee MM to be truly viable you’d need to do some considerable reworking of the pets so that the MM can be a greater percentage of the AT’s total DPS… maybe more like a “Three Musketeers” (2 pets plus the PCs) than the MM’s “Seven Man Band” to allow a greater percentage of the damage dealt to be via the character of themselves (say half with two pets accounting for a quarter each).

 

Fewer, but individually stronger, pets would also make an armor set affecting them more effective (the lowest tier MM pets are so squishy that even 75% resistance wouldn’t add that much survivability) and might make that concept viable.

 

How about this: instead of bodyguard mode, where pets in defensive mode share damage with the nearby Mastermind, instead there is "Assault mode", where each pet deals bonus damage to their target according to how much damage the Mastermind deals with their primary attacks.

 

For example, if you swing your katana, each ninja will get a flat +damage boost only for their next attack which is exactly as much damage that you dealt with your katana. I think that should be enough to boost the "MM's own lackluster damage numbers" while also leaning into the idea that if you want survivability, you better turn on a toggle for it and spend endurance on it. Downside is that the MM's targets would die slower than the pet targets... So, how about making it go both ways - every time a pet attacks, it gives the player a buff which increases their damage for their next attack by a flat amount according to how much has been dealt by their pets in the past 10 seconds? Only when in aggressive stance!

 

I do like the idea of reducing the total number of pets. The Mastermind should be the Master of pets, after all. How about two of the T2 pets at +1 level, and the training powers need to be applied individually again?

 

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Another major factor is determining which melee set should apply to each MM set. Ninjas is strait forward enough with the katana, but what’s the weapon set for demons? Mercenaries? Robots?

 

Demons can use savage melee

Undead can use broad sword

Mercenaries can use dual blades

Robots can use martial arts

Thugs can use mace

Ninjas can use katana

Wolves can use super strength

 

 

[Chris24601]

Eh… those choices don’t feel terribly thematically evocative except Ninja + Katana. What does Martial Arts have to do with Robotics? Why isn’t Savage Melee going to the Beast MM?

 

This is what I meant about it being an issue. I’m sure your choices made sense to you, but they make little sense to me.

 

So, in the spirit of helping out, let me share my thoughts for the associations.

 

- Ninjas getting Katana attacks is so sensible I don’t think it even bears discussing reasons, but I will note that this choice does influence some of my other choices.
 

- Demons get the Flaming Whip animations with melee attacks. There’s already significant enough changes that would be needed from the original power set that taking the whip animations and attaching them to some new melee powers wouldn’t be adding any more to the complexity than you’re already doing with a whole new AT.

 

- Necromancy gets Dark Melee. I get the idea of Broadsword to line up with the Death Knights, but Ninjas will already be getting a blade with virtually identical powers and two Lethal blade sets would be a bit redundant. So giving the Necromancer Dark Melee attacks still fits it’s theme but will offer something different from the rest of the powersets.

 

- I’ve got no objection to Dual Blades for Mercs (though I don’t think carrying over the combo system makes any sense), except that it really doesn’t fit their Pet capabilities at all (they’re absolutely the most ranged of the MM pets). My suggestion would be that these Merc Pets also get Dual Blades representing them as more like Spec Force Assassins. One alternate thought though would be make this the set that say, gives a ranged attack (burst), along with a rifle butt and a leg sweep to better fit in with his Mercs.

 

- Robots paired with Martial Arts feels completely non-sensical to me. Maybe if the bots had a more anime mecha look to them I could almost see it. Instead I’d focus on Bots existing energy damage with a reddish energy color scheme and give them “power gauntlets” i.e. Energy Melee and pink/red pom-poms of death as the coloration and energy type matches and has been used with a number of tech-based foes (Crey, IDF) for powered melee attacks.

 

- I sorta see the idea of Thugs and Mace attacks in the sense of a billy club or improvised weapon, but given the rough and tumble nature of the Thugs I think Street Fighting would align better thematically, particularly if the set keeps the top tier pet as your Melee Battle Buddy.

 

- I’m torn with the Beasts. On the one hand Savage Melee makes some sense… limited shapeshifting matches the rather D&D druidic themes of the set, but we’ve already got two MM sets giving Lethal Damage attacks so instead I’m going to suggest Spines/Thorn Melee for some toxic damage added into the mix. That said, if you want to let it be more universal, give them Staff Melee since it could be a magic staff, but could also be used by someone with the “natural” or “tech” (see the tech staff options) origins as well.

 

But those would be my suggestions (and my reasoning) for matching melee attacks to the MM sets.

[biostem]

I like some of what this thread proposes.  Something similar has been proposed before.  What I would do would be to replace the personal attacks from the pet sets with appropriate armor toggles, while the secondary set consisted of melee attacks.  The APPs for this AT would include the ranged attacks that were stripped from the pet sets.  I would also have the passive ability for this AT be two-fold:  1) Those armor toggles also generate a PBAoE effect that grants some of their benefit to your pets, and 2) Add a single-target taunt effect to the melee effects, like what brutes get.

 

 

The armor powers would need to be tweaked, and some other adjustments would be necessary for the primary sets, (likely, each pet primary would end up with 2 general armor powers and likely 1 status protection power):

 

Beast would get super reflexes, regeneration, or maybe bio armor

Demon Summoning - fire armor

Mercenaries - invuln or willpower

Necromancy - dark armor

Ninjas would get ninjitsu powers

Robotics - invuln, elec, or energy aura armors

Thugs - invuln or willpower

[Rudra]

I was trying to stay out of this, but I can't. A melee version of MMs can be interesting/fun. However, the whole principle of the proposed AT getting armor sets and that armor set extending to their pets? No. If you want to bolster the pets of this AT? Then make the secondary a support, not an armor. If you want armor to be the secondary? Then live with your pets dying frequently because you no longer need them to protect you.

 

Edited October 15 by Rudra
Edited to remove redundant "however".

[OEM61]

I have never really given Mastermind a serious go.  Dabbled with it a time or two back in the day but it was a villain AT.  The little time I played red side I usually spent it with a Corruptor, sometimes a Stalker and a little time with a Brute.

I do wonder where the power levels would be for this.  Just curiosity since I would be more inclined to play a Mastermind, I think.

Anyway, if you are just talking about what attacks to group with what minions, then  just to throw something out there...

Beast Mastery -> Savage Melee (they are animals, you fight like one).  Other options:  Claws.
Demon Summoning -> Fiery Melee (they come from Hell, so does your weaponry).  Other options:  Claws, Dark Melee, Energy Melee, Psionic Melee, Spines(?)
Mercenaries -> Martial Arts (Mercenaries are skilled, fighters, so are you).  Other options:  Dual Blades.
Necromancy -> Dark Melee (The darkness sets all have some 'necromantic' elements of life draining and such).  Other options:  Psionic Melee.
Ninjas -> Katana (Japanese-themed minions, Japanese-themed weapon).  Other Options:  Martial Arts, Staff Fighting.
Robotic -> Electrical Melee, Energy Melee., Radiation Melee. (I don't really have a front-runner here.  Any of them seem viable/logical) 
Thugs ->  Street Justice.  Other options:  Martial Arts, Super Strength.

I think that I would look at overall proliferation of certain sets and lean towards some lesser-used ones just to even things out a little, within reason, of course.  If Energy Melee, for example, is notably less-used then Electric or Radiation Melee then I would lean more towards giving that to the Robot Captain set.  I would not consider Spines there even if it was the rarest of all melee sets because Spines do not connect in any way with using Robot minions.  Not to me, anyway.

Just my thoughts.


Edit:  As far as defenses, there would be no automatic assignments.  A Beast Captain using Savage Melee would no more be stuck with Super Reflexes than Fiery Aura Tankers are stuck with Fiery Melee.

Also, there would be adjustments within the set.  It's not like a Captain taking Invulnerability would get those powers at full strength for himself and each and every minion at the same time.

They could have powers that only affect the Captain, only affect the minions, or work for both to varying degrees. 

A Captain's Invulnerability set might include 4 powers that affect only himself, 3 that only work for the minions (and possibly those on a scale where the Bruiser gets more benefit than the Enforcers who get more benefit than the Punks), and 2 that work to some degree for both.

The defenses would have to be given as much work as the offenses for this AT.

Edited October 18 by OEM61

[megaericzero]

I'd been contemplating similar ideas on a henchmen-and-armor archetype, given the multiple suggestions/discussions cropping up about it over the past several months. I find it helps me, personally, to have power tables to visualize what full sets will look like, so here's some of what I had banging around in my head so far. Feel free to take any ideas from it.

(I'm going to wrap it in a spoiler tag so as not to spam a wall of text the thread.)

Spoiler

(In the case of Demon Summoning, a sword since fire and ice - which are represented in DS - both use swords in their melee sets, but with toxic DOT to parody the whip DS normally has. In the case of Mercenaries, it's Super Strength powers repackaged as boxing.)

 

These last two don't have any primary to marry up with but have armor sets that can be easily tweaked. Note that ELA's sentinel is Galvanic (the affinity one), not to be confused with Voltaic (the blast one).

 

 

Edited October 19 by megaericzero

[Techhead]

On 10/15/2024 at 7:10 PM, biostem said:

I like some of what this thread proposes.  Something similar has been proposed before.  What I would do would be to replace the personal attacks from the pet sets with appropriate armor toggles, while the secondary set consisted of melee attacks.  The APPs for this AT would include the ranged attacks that were stripped from the pet sets.  I would also have the passive ability for this AT be two-fold:  1) Those armor toggles also generate a PBAoE effect that grants some of their benefit to your pets, and 2) Add a single-target taunt effect to the melee effects, like what brutes get.

 

 

The armor powers would need to be tweaked, and some other adjustments would be necessary for the primary sets, (likely, each pet primary would end up with 2 general armor powers and likely 1 status protection power):

 

Beast would get super reflexes, regeneration, or maybe bio armor

Demon Summoning - fire armor

Mercenaries - invuln or willpower

Necromancy - dark armor

Ninjas would get ninjitsu powers

Robotics - invuln, elec, or energy aura armors

Thugs - invuln or willpower

Yeah I really dig this design of making the melee modular, possibly also make it melee primary, pet/armor secondary, and instead of MM's spread of 3 ranged, 3 summon, 2 upgrade, and 1 steroid, it loses one of the pet-focused power slots (the steroid at MM's T7?) to have a non-toggle defensive button, like a drain or AOE heal or a placate+stealth.

[tidge]

Try not to lose sight of this facto about Masterminds: They have terrible damage scales, and they pay an enormous endurance tax on their attacks.

 

I can understand simply wanting alternate (primary) powers, as 3 summons + 2 upgrades doesn't leave many more (primary) powers for variety... but this is essentially the basis of the Mastermind AT. The request for a melee-option instead of a ranged-option isn't prima facie terrible, but as a practical matter I'd want such a thing on whole lotta other AT too... such that this suggestion just feels like a different game. Better IMO is to propose new primaries that have alternate attacks, with similar damage and endurance profiles as current MM sets.

 

I'm skeptical of the true motivation, because if the original ask is "give us Masterminds with Melee primaries and Armor secondaries", this sounds like a variation of "give us Scrappers with Henchmen" to me. We sort-of can have this with "Crabberminds", and Scrappers can get a Patron pet.