Wait... no Super Strength for Scrappers?

[Omnicron]

I was under the impression that almost every set that could be proliferated to the relevant ATs had been, so every once in a while I scratch my head. No Super Strength for Scrappers? Seriously? This seems like a massive oversight to me. I have trouble imagining that Rage being OP for scrappers would be the issue: after all, there's no problem with sets like shields and bio armor which provide large bonuses to damage on a far more permanent basis with less of a drawback.

 

Further, this seems like a change our current devs could make with minimal hassle if they were so inclined.

 

Anyone care to weigh in? Is there something I'm missing?

[HelenCarnate]

Also no Energy Melee and no Ninjitsu for Brutes or Tankers and no Regen for Tankers either.  Oh and no Stone Armor for Scrappers either.  Not that there is a big line up of people demanding to want to make an EM/Stone scrapper, but still I would like to see all these ported.

[Zumberge]

I'm gonna use the numbers in Pine's for this, so bear with me.

 

So let's say that on Live you had Punch Man, a Willpower/SS Tanker, and you really liked him so you put a lot of money into his build.  Five of the six Hecatomb IOs go into Knockout Blow, and you're uppercutting people for about 320 damage.  That's nice.  When Rage is active, that's now up to 446.  That's even nicer!

 

Now let's say that there's an alternate dimension where Scrappers got Super Strength and you made Punch Man a SS/Willpower Scrapper instead.  The damage scale for Tanker melee attacks is 0.8, while Scrappers is 1.125 - in essence, Scrappers deal a factor of 1.4 times more damage than Tankers with the same attack.  Adjusting for this damage scale, Knockout Blow now deals 450 damage.  With Rage active, that number jumps to 630 damage.  On an Archetype that can crit for double that.

 

(Also, the 178 damage Foot Stomp is now 250 damage, with crits.)

 

Now this is a lot of damage, but you might be saying, "sure, but Rage has that huge drawback of the crash."  This is true; -20% defense to everything is a pretty nasty debuff, and if you have any enemy aggro they're going to be hitting you pretty badly.  After all, Tankers and Brutes have in-built taunt mechanics that basically cause enemies to attack them over other teammates.  Punchvoke and Pokevoke, they call them.

 

But Scrappers don't.

 

I'm not going to say that you're going to shed aggro like a ninja.  But I will say that if you were a Super Strength Scrapper on a team, your sudden departure from the battlefield would have far fewer consequences in terms of enemies following you or messing up the grouping than would a Tanker or Brute.  A melee DPS that needs to duck away for the fighting for ten seconds is an acceptable retreat; a tank that needs to needs to do the same is... not.

 

tl;dr, Scrappers with Super Strength could put out stupid huge numbers and mitigate Rage's current drawbacks in a way that Tankers and Brutes could only dream about.

[Redlynne]

No Super Strength for Scrappers? Seriously?

 

Scrappers are ... too strong ... for Super Strength.

 

For a more "thematic" and comic book-y answer, Super Strength pretty much always shows up on the Brick Types ... not on the La Machine whirling dervish of death and destruction types, even even the "finesse" fighter types who win through "skill" rather than just raw (overwhelming) power.

[HelenCarnate]

I'm gonna use the numbers in Pine's for this, so bear with me.

 

So let's say that on Live you had Punch Man, a Willpower/SS Tanker, and you really liked him so you put a lot of money into his build.  Five of the six Hecatomb IOs go into Knockout Blow, and you're uppercutting people for about 320 damage.  That's nice.  When Rage is active, that's now up to 446.  That's even nicer!

 

Now let's say that there's an alternate dimension where Scrappers got Super Strength and you made Punch Man a SS/Willpower Scrapper instead.  The damage scale for Tanker melee attacks is 0.8, while Scrappers is 1.125 - in essence, Scrappers deal a factor of 1.4 times more damage than Tankers with the same attack.  Adjusting for this damage scale, Knockout Blow now deals 450 damage.  With Rage active, that number jumps to 630 damage.  On an Archetype that can crit for double that.

 

(Also, the 178 damage Foot Stomp is now 250 damage, with crits.)

 

Now this is a lot of damage, but you might be saying, "sure, but Rage has that huge drawback of the crash."  This is true; -20% defense to everything is a pretty nasty debuff, and if you have any enemy aggro they're going to be hitting you pretty badly.  After all, Tankers and Brutes have in-built taunt mechanics that basically cause enemies to attack them over other teammates.  Punchvoke and Pokevoke, they call them.

 

But Scrappers don't.

 

I'm not going to say that you're going to shed aggro like a ninja.  But I will say that if you were a Super Strength Scrapper on a team, your sudden departure from the battlefield would have far fewer consequences in terms of enemies following you or messing up the grouping than would a Tanker or Brute.  A melee DPS that needs to duck away for the fighting for ten seconds is an acceptable retreat; a tank that needs to needs to do the same is... not.

 

tl;dr, Scrappers with Super Strength could put out stupid huge numbers and mitigate Rage's current drawbacks in a way that Tankers and Brutes could only dream about.

 

And my brute with 65% Fury hits for KO blow of 636 with single rage without procs.  I Footstomp for 248 without procs as well.  I also have more HP and higher resists than a Scrapper and that is the trade off for not getting crits.  Scrappers without taunt auras can already shed aggro if there is a tank or brute on the team so neither are really an issue.

 

Consider that with Rad Melee (that Scrappers have) they can hit for over 466 with Devastating blow and that is just with a purple set, no procs, no rage, no crit and no Fusion.  This is on an attack that has a base recharge of 8 seconds faster than KO Blow, so it is not that big of a deal if they do get KO blow with Rage as long as it is 80% per stack and not 100%.

[HelenCarnate]

No Super Strength for Scrappers? Seriously?

 

Scrappers are ... too strong ... for Super Strength.

 

For a more "thematic" and comic book-y answer, Super Strength pretty much always shows up on the Brick Types ... not on the La Machine whirling dervish of death and destruction types, even even the "finesse" fighter types who win through "skill" rather than just raw (overwhelming) power.

 

And nothing says finesse like swinging a giant hammer or sword what is bigger than you are.

[Redlynne]

And nothing says finesse like swinging a giant hammer or sword what is bigger than you are.

 

/em polite cough

 

Guts

... not a Scrapper.

Just FYI ...  ^_~

[HelenCarnate]

And nothing says finesse like swinging a giant hammer or sword what is bigger than you are.

 

/em polite cough

 

Guts

... not a Scrapper.

Just FYI ...  ^_~

 

And yet Scrappers get Titan Weapons.

[Omnicron]

For a more "thematic" and comic book-y answer, Super Strength pretty much always shows up on the Brick Types ... not on the La Machine whirling dervish of death and destruction types, even even the "finesse" fighter types who win through "skill" rather than just raw (overwhelming) power.

 

[Erratic1]

Spider Man is class 25 whereas Hulk is class 100 (well. . .he has no upper bound but starts at 100).

[Omnicron]

Spider Man is class 25 whereas Hulk is class 100 (well. . .he has no upper bound but starts at 100).

 

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making, though I suppose my point wasn't entirely clear either: Spider-Man is an example of a Super-Strength scrapper. I was offering a counterpoint to the poster that argued that thematically, "scrapper types" don't have super-strength.

[Williwaw]

Spider-Man has super strength, but he's also highly agile and works that into his fighting style.  The SS animations in game suggest an all-power-no-finesse style, while Spider-Man's fighting style combines both, effectively giving him Martial Arts (with the alternate punch animations) and/or Street Justice as his actual fighting style.

 

Titan Weapons on Scrappers is a misstep conceptually, yes, but it can be explained thusly:

 

NCSoft Execs: "Hey, Paragon devs, put Titan Weapons on every melee class you can because we'll sell more money money money money money!"

 

(And the Homecoming devs didn't want to take it away once it was already there)

[Redlynne]

Spider-Man is an example of a Super-Strength scrapper.

 

/em polite cough

 

Spiderman does not have Hulk or even Kryptonian levels of super strength.

Stronger than an average human?  Sure, by a good bit.

REALLY super strong?  There are plenty of comparisons that put Spiderman towards the "lower end" of the super strength scale.  You even provided one.

 

If anything, I'd argue that Spiderman would translate to City of Heroes as more of an Electric Control/Electric Assault Dominator ... with the special effects swapped out for webs instead of electricity/lightning ... for that playstyle of preferring to neutralize foes by binding them up with webbing rather than going for the fist to the face as a first answer to every confrontation or for a knockout blow display of physical power.  Besides, the Dominator TAUNTING their victims for being helpless against the Dominator really fits in with Spidey's habit of taunting/critiquing his adversaries while he makes them look like fools in combat.  That kibitzing/commentary on how the fight is going while the fight is in progress is totally a Controller/Dominator habit.

[MunkiLord]

If SS on Scrappers isn't a good idea because of game mechanics, so be it. But restricting something like that based on what some people perceive as comic or theme appropriate is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. If a person feels that way about a powerset then they can skip taking it, problem solved. If they don't like that someone else made that choice, oh well. Their opinion on another person's powerset choices only has value when and if the other person says so.

[marcussmythe]

I see no problem with allowing SS (or EM, or w/e) on Scrappers.

 

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isnt), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

 

If crits from ET are ‘too good’ on a scrapper (lol) then they are too good elsewhere (lololololol)

 

Ditto Stone Armor - if someone wants to be in Granite Armor, but more focused on crits/offense than Brute or Tank allows for, why the heck not? 

[Erratic1]

Spider Man is class 25 whereas Hulk is class 100 (well. . .he has no upper bound but starts at 100).

 

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making, though I suppose my point wasn't entirely clear either: Spider-Man is an example of a Super-Strength scrapper. I was offering a counterpoint to the poster that argued that thematically, "scrapper types" don't have super-strength.

 

The point is that while he is super-strong compared to an ordinary man, he is not superhero, super-strong. Plenty of people completely outclass him. Just like you can leap taller than an ordinary person in game, a character with any other primary powerset can be said to be stronger than ordinary. There you go. But Super Strength is supposed to represent those working on another level all together and those people are not leap in the mix fighters.

[Erratic1]

If SS on Scrappers isn't a good idea because of game mechanics, so be it. But restricting something like that based on what some people perceive as comic or theme appropriate is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. If a person feels that way about a powerset then they can skip taking it, problem solved. If they don't like that someone else made that choice, oh well. Their opinion on another person's powerset choices only has value when and if the other person says so.

 

Well hey, why don't we just do away with ATs all together and give everyone every powerset both as primary and secondary?

[Statesmandy]

Well hey, why don't we just do away with trying to define character concepts through arbitrary AT restrictions. "Scrappers are agile fighters" is a completely nonsense argument. It's like trying to argue that you can't be sneaky if you have impenetrable skin. Says who?

 

Now if there's a mechanical reason not to port some of these sets, that's fine, but don't try to tell me what kind of fighter my scrapper is.

[MunkiLord]

If SS on Scrappers isn't a good idea because of game mechanics, so be it. But restricting something like that based on what some people perceive as comic or theme appropriate is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. If a person feels that way about a powerset then they can skip taking it, problem solved. If they don't like that someone else made that choice, oh well. Their opinion on another person's powerset choices only has value when and if the other person says so.

 

Well hey, why don't we just do away with ATs all together and give everyone every powerset both as primary and secondary?

 

Much better option than control freaks dictating to other people how to play, build characters, and forcing their ideas on others.

[Hyperstrike]

Spider Man is class 25 whereas Hulk is class 100 (well. . .he has no upper bound but starts at 100).

 

Spider-Man is an example of a Super-Strength scrapper.

 

Most melee-oriented supers have SOME modicum of superhuman strength.  It's kinda like the "basic package"

 

Captain America comes in at the low end of the spectrum.  He's marginally stronger than the strongest human weightlifters.  He can basically chuck a motorcycle at you if necessary and he has the proper technique to take advantage of the momentum.

 

Spidey is MUCH higher up the scale and is in the "Chuck cars around" strong if he really NEEDS to.

 

Hulk's BASELINE is "Knock buildings down and chuck MAIN BATTLE TANKS for miles".  Not even going to address "Worldbreaker".

 

You're talking a difference in orders of magnitude.

 

CAN Spidey fight Hulk and make him hurt?

Yep.

Spidey MIGHT get lucky and knock Hulk out if the fight is short and sudden.

 

But the Hulk only REALLY needs to solidly connect ONCE and it's Spider-Salsa.

[Hyperstrike]

Well hey, why don't we just do away with ATs all together and give everyone every powerset both as primary and secondary?

 

Go play CO for that.

 

CoH doesn't support this sort of thing stably.

Freeform CoH characters have been tried.

Ripping out all the "error" checking for this stuff is non-trivial.

[Erratic1]

If SS on Scrappers isn't a good idea because of game mechanics, so be it. But restricting something like that based on what some people perceive as comic or theme appropriate is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. If a person feels that way about a powerset then they can skip taking it, problem solved. If they don't like that someone else made that choice, oh well. Their opinion on another person's powerset choices only has value when and if the other person says so.

 

Well hey, why don't we just do away with ATs all together and give everyone every powerset both as primary and secondary?

 

Much better option than control freaks dictating to other people how to play, build characters, and forcing their ideas on others.

 

I did not pass value judgment on people due to their positions, otherwise I might respond, "Because satisfying whiney cry-babies always makes a game better." But I'm above that.

[Hopeling]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isnt), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

It kind of is though. SS dominated the brute/tanker meta for a very long time, primarily because of Rage. In isolation, SS is reasonably balanced because the set only has one AoE and only one really good ST attack, so even with Rage it's not doing anything too incredible. But when you add in outside powers like a damage aura, Burn, or ancillary attacks, the fact that these all get bonuses from Rage gives a very clear advantage over other primaries.

 

Moreover, the reasoning in the quote just doesn't hold. Everyone seems pretty comfortable saying that other sets with damage buffs, like Claws or /Shield, are better on a scrapper, because scrappers get more out of damage buffs - not only because we have higher base damage, but also because we get larger damage buffs even as a percentage. Taking these two together, any damage buff power is 62.5% more beneficial to a scrapper than to a brute in absolute terms (more than that if you count crits). If Blinding Feint is better for scrappers than brutes, Rage would be too, except to an even greater degree because it's a much larger buff. (Plus, scrappers can take snipes in their epic pools, so they'd really get to take advantage of Rage's large +tohit.) When you take a set that's already overperforming, then hand it to an AT whose modifiers make it much better, it's at least plausible that you're going to have balance issues.

 

I don't know if this would really make Super Strength overpowered on a scrapper, at least not moreso than the sets we've already got. TW pretty clearly overperforms, and yet people still seem happy to play other sets. But SS would definitely be a stronger set on scrappers than it is on brutes, for the same reason Dual Blades is, except moreso. Frankly, with how badly the Rage crash change affects the set, I think Rage needs to be reworked a little anyway, and maybe that rework could make it more palatable for a scrapper port.

 

I also don't know if this is the real rationale behind not porting it: Stone Melee is another classic "brute force" set that didn't get proliferated, and there's no obvious balance concern there. Stalkers didn't get War Mace, again for no clear balance reason - and after getting both Fire sets, it's hard to imagine that thematic concerns were the issue either.

[Without_Pause]

Hulk is SS. Spider-Man is SJ. The end.

[marcussmythe]

If SS is ‘too good’ on a scrapper (it isnt), then its too good elsewhere (it isnt).

It kind of is though. SS dominated the brute/tanker meta for a very long time, primarily because of Rage. In isolation, SS is reasonably balanced because the set only has one AoE and only one really good ST attack, so even with Rage it's not doing anything too incredible. But when you add in outside powers like a damage aura, Burn, or ancillary attacks, the fact that these all get bonuses from Rage gives a very clear advantage over other primaries.

 

Moreover, the reasoning in the quote just doesn't hold. Everyone seems pretty comfortable saying that other sets with damage buffs, like Claws or /Shield, are better on a scrapper, because scrappers get more out of damage buffs - not only because we have higher base damage, but also because we get larger damage buffs even as a percentage. Taking these two together, any damage buff power is 62.5% more beneficial to a scrapper than to a brute in absolute terms (more than that if you count crits). If Blinding Feint is better for scrappers than brutes, Rage would be too, except to an even greater degree because it's a much larger buff. (Plus, scrappers can take snipes in their epic pools, so they'd really get to take advantage of Rage's large +tohit.) When you take a set that's already overperforming, then hand it to an AT whose modifiers make it much better, it's at least plausible that you're going to have balance issues.

 

I don't know if this would really make Super Strength overpowered on a scrapper, at least not moreso than the sets we've already got. TW pretty clearly overperforms, and yet people still seem happy to play other sets. But SS would definitely be a stronger set on scrappers than it is on brutes, for the same reason Dual Blades is, except moreso. Frankly, with how badly the Rage crash change affects the set, I think Rage needs to be reworked a little anyway, and maybe that rework could make it more palatable for a scrapper port.

 

I also don't know if this is the real rationale behind not porting it: Stone Melee is another classic "brute force" set that didn't get proliferated, and there's no obvious balance concern there. Stalkers didn't get War Mace, again for no clear balance reason - and after getting both Fire sets, it's hard to imagine that thematic concerns were the issue either.

 

For the record, I feel that having damage buff effects be larger (buildup, etc) on Scrappers than say Brutes or Tanks was already a bad design choice - as the advantage of the Scrapper is already ‘baked in’ in the larger base damage mod. 

 

But if they ported SS to Scraper, and raised the rage buff, it might produce an outlier, and thats a fair point.  I honestly feel that a reevaluation of SS base performance, and the impact of rage, is probably called for.  Ill note that when I suggested on the rage thread that we should do so and aim to make what comes out the back end a solid, midrange set, performance wise, once everything was accounted for,, some of the afficionados of SS seemed offended.