Cone Powers

[Jeuraud]

I fricken hate them in CoH, unlike WildStar I have to guess as to whether my target is in my cone, and I really suck at guessing. Also not having taken geometry I think I was reading the arc degree wrong. I used to think that when it said an arc degree that it meant that many degrees from my center; a 45 deg arc, is 45 deg to my left and 45 deg to my right. I now believe that it's the measurement of the full arc, and maybe my guessing will be better now, but I'm still guessing. Another problem with a cone is the closer you are to your target the less cone area you have (This was real easy to see in WildStar.). This is the reason that targets have to be pretty much in line to hit more than one with Sands/Shadow Maul, which is a 7ft long, 45 deg arc. This works the same for any other cone attack, whether range or melee, if your in melee range.

 

My suggestion for Cone Powers is to double the Arc degree, so that 45 deg, is 45 to my left and 45 to my right. Or better yet just open them up to 180, and let the range and numbers affected, be the limiting factors, well that and them having to be in front of you.

[Redlynne]

What this sounds like to me:

 

"I fell in the river and got wet.  Fix it so I don't get wet when I fall in."

 

Sorry, you're going to have to do the Divide By 2 math in your head, just like all the rest of us, so as to intuitively know that a 120º wide cone is 60º to the left of center and 60º to the right of center for a 120º wide cone ... as advertised.

[Jeuraud]

What this sounds like to me:

 

"I fell in the river and got wet.  Fix it so I don't get wet when I fall in."

 

Sorry, you're going to have to do the Divide By 2 math in your head, just like all the rest of us, so as to intuitively know that a 120º wide cone is 60º to the left of center and 60º to the right of center for a 120º wide cone ... as advertised.

 

 

Anyways I thought I had made it fairly clear that I had been screwing up my math, and had fixed my screwup, but, and of course there is a but, math is not really important for Sands/Shadow Maul. It's also not very important for Beast's Ravens when your up close to the MOBs, because even though it's a 40ft cone, it's a 30 degree arc (I've yet to see a 120 degree arc.), and all the cone target area beyond the MOB group is of no value if there is nothing out there to hit. It's the side to side target area that is important when your in the scrum, and the closer you get to the MOBs the less target area you have.  And of course the smaller the arc, the smaller the target area. As mentioned before it's basic geometry.

I pulled Ravens from my chain, because when I am in the scrum it has the same problem as Sands/Shadow Maul, and in the scrum is how I'm choosing to play my Beasts MM.

 

Now if you stand in back, well away from the MOBs, then yeah using the right formula can make a difference for the cones. Well as long as you have a good eye for angles.

 

I'm thinking now that the only thing that will really fix cones in melee is making them 180. How much would this change range combat?

[Legree]

I'm thinking now that the only thing that will really fix cones in melee is making them 180. How much would this change range combat?

 

It wouldn't, but it would make those melee attacks a lot more powerful.  Yes, it is hard to hit multiple targets with Shadow Maul/Flurry/Sands of Mu (the only way I reliably hit multiple targets unless I'm knee deep in enemies is if there's a mob standing more or less directly behind my target) but I'd as soon not see a wider cone balanced by a decrease in their damage or an increase in recharge time or end cost, and to widen it without doing one or more of those things is just power creep for the sake of it.

 

Now Empty Clips in Dual Pistols on the other hand - that I do think needs a wider cone, though really I think I find that one underwhelming due to the disconnect between the animation of the attack (which does look like a 180) and what it actually does.

[Sunsette]

imo most of the powers that are 30 degree cones are too narrow to be fun, but for me that just means 'not bothering with that power'. Best to advocate for specific powers rather than blanket saying 'melee cones' -- that'd be very powerful with, say, Spines.

[DSorrow]

Anyways I thought I had made it fairly clear that I had been screwing up my math, and had fixed my screwup, but, and of course there is a but, math is not really important for Sands/Shadow Maul. It's also not very important for Beast's Ravens when your up close to the MOBs, because even though it's a 40ft cone, it's a 30 degree arc (I've yet to see a 120 degree arc.), and all the cone target area beyond the MOB group is of no value if there is nothing out there to hit. It's the side to side target area that is important when your in the scrum, and the closer you get to the MOBs the less target area you have. 

 

And of course the smaller the arc, the smaller the target area. As mentioned before it's basic geometry.

I pulled Ravens from my chain, because when I am in the scrum it has the same problem as Sands/Shadow Maul, and in the scrum is how I'm choosing to play my Beasts MM.

 

Now if you stand in back, well away from the MOBs, then yeah using the right formula can make a difference for the cones. Well as long as you have a good eye for angles.

 

I'm thinking now that the only thing that will really fix cones in melee is making them 180. How much would this change range combat?

 

And how is this any different from any other AoE? Should we double the radius of PBAoEs too just because their AoE has no value and I want to hit more targets without improving my gameplay? A 40ft cone will hit people 30ft behind a target that's 10ft away, if you don't use positioning well to get those hits, it's not a cone issue. Why would you even intuitively think that a power advertised as a 60 degree arc cone would be 60+60=120 arc cone? There are plenty of melee cones that are 90 or 120 degrees and these would effectively become almost PBAoEs with a change like this.

 

Gameplay wise, widening some narrow cones especially if they're melee would be nice, but I just don't think you've justified why this change is necessary or good for the game, let alone why just blindly doubling the cone areas is the solution.

[srmalloy]

Anyways I thought I had made it fairly clear that I had been screwing up my math, and had fixed my screwup, but, and of course there is a but, math is not really important for Sands/Shadow Maul. It's also not very important for Beast's Ravens when your up close to the MOBs, because even though it's a 40ft cone, it's a 30 degree arc (I've yet to see a 120 degree arc.), and all the cone target area beyond the MOB group is of no value if there is nothing out there to hit. It's the side to side target area that is important when your in the scrum, and the closer you get to the MOBs the less target area you have.  And of course the smaller the arc, the smaller the target area. As mentioned before it's basic geometry.

I pulled Ravens from my chain, because when I am in the scrum it has the same problem as Sands/Shadow Maul, and in the scrum is how I'm choosing to play my Beasts MM.

 

I think Cutting Beam in the Beam Rifle set is a 120° cone (and you get such a nice visual demonstration of the arc when you fire); it's certainly the widest cone I've seen in the game.

 

[Super Homer]

I'm thinking now that the only thing that will really fix cones in melee is making them 180. How much would this change range combat?

 

Given how the game is balanced around a damage formula that takes into account things like arc angle and radius, expanding the arc of many powers to that degree would come with a ridiculous damage nerf.

 

That aside: a lot of the attacks that have a 45 degree arc are balanced as if they were single target, with any additionally hit targets being considered "bonus" if you manage to pull it off with good positioning or luck.

[Novacat]

Cutting Beam is 30 degrees, range 50 IIRC (I specced out from it a while back so I might be off)

DEFINITELY not 120, though it's very bright and visible so often looks larger than others who rely on "did the damage numbers pop up or not" for whether something was caught in it.

[Widower]

When someone disagrees with you, please don't resort to personal attacks as a first line of defense (or at all, but especially not as a first line of defense).

[Leogunner]

I LOVE CONES!

 

It's an odd fixation I have from my old days playing Dark Melee as my first serious character.  It made me learn and appreciate the wider cones or how to utilize longer ranges.  I even have several characters who solely focus on cones (my Fire/SD/Mako brute's draconic heritage lets him use various types of elemental breath attacks, for example).  The trick is, cones are sort of malleable...you can use the server's delay that tells you if your attack is out of range to stretch the cone's length thus increasing the possible targets.  It's kind of a fun game to play and the downfall of their execution as if they made the cones more usable, they likely would have to find a way to patch this and make all cones more defined.

 

An obvious fix would be if cones required no target.  Just like PBAoEs, if foes happened to be in the area of the cone, they get hit.  But just like PBAoEs, you can't stretch the area at all.

 

Increasing the degree may help hit max foes but maybe just make it so range bonuses work on cones?  Might make the difference of needing to take a step back and to one side of your target before executing the cone and just targetting the guy behind him instead.

[Jeuraud]

When someone disagrees with you, please don't resort to personal attacks as a first line of defense (or at all, but especially not as a first line of defense).

 

There is a difference between someone disagreeing, and someone attacking.

The first reply was just an attack (Giving nothing of value.), and not just attacking my idea, but me personally. The rest of the replies are disagreements, giving me some things to think about (Even the ones that have some attack in them.).

[Bossk_Hogg]

I just wish I could fire a cone without a target selected... I think the incarnate ones actually allow for that. Nothing is more irritating than having it lined up then your target moves throwing your aim off.

[Jeuraud]

I'm thinking now that the only thing that will really fix cones in melee is making them 180. How much would this change range combat?

 

It wouldn't, but it would make those melee attacks a lot more powerful.  Yes, it is hard to hit multiple targets with Shadow Maul/Flurry/Sands of Mu (the only way I reliably hit multiple targets unless I'm knee deep in enemies is if there's a mob standing more or less directly behind my target) but I'd as soon not see a wider cone balanced by a decrease in their damage or an increase in recharge time or end cost, and to widen it without doing one or more of those things is just power creep for the sake of it.

 

Is it power creep?

Because to me they are not doing the job they were created for, AoE.

 

Sure SM/SoM are heavy hitters, but they are also DoTs, and have long activation times that keep you locked up, and consistently do not hit more than one MOB. I cant remember the number of times my characters have stood there swinging away at One dead/arrested MOB, while others are pounding on them. Most people opt out of SM because  consistently hitting more than one MOB is the whole point of an AoE, and if it's going to consistently not to do its job then there is no point in having it. You can slot Smite for damage and refresh, there is nothing you can do about the activation time of SM, nor little about it consistently hitting only one MOB.

 

I'm not sure why everybody thinks that opening up the cones will make them OP because there is another factor that limits all AoEs; it's max number. Every Cone AoE that I've looked at had a lower number than Circular AoEs, and that includes Spines. A Circular AoE can consistently get it's max number, while a Cone AoE, pretty much never gets its max number. A Circular AoE is also a lot easier to use, than a Cone AoE.

 

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE. Now if you all think they are doing their job, AoE, then there's not much else for me to say, because I'll never agree with that.

 

[Adeon Hawkwood]

imo most of the powers that are 30 degree cones are too narrow to be fun, but for me that just means 'not bothering with that power'. Best to advocate for specific powers rather than blanket saying 'melee cones' -- that'd be very powerful with, say, Spines.

To my mind the 19 and 30 degree melee cones are single target attacks that occasionally hit a second target.

[Zep]

I just wish I could fire a cone without a target selected... I think the incarnate ones actually allow for that. Nothing is more irritating than having it lined up then your target moves throwing your aim off.

 

That would be nice - however - I think it is inherent with tab/click based targeting. I have some success by targeting a mob at the back of a group and just thinking of the cone as a straight line plus. Soloing I can reliably hit most or all of a group. With teams that is harder to do, yet still works. It doesnt matter where the mobs are when the power resolves, it locks in and rolls to hit/damage when you click to activate.

[Zep]

I take the Mu special attack on about 2/3 of my characters. It isnt to hard to hit 2-3+ mobs when they are packed up.

 

I also regularly use Jacobs Ladder on my Stalker. Sometimes I only hit 1 target, sometimes I miss entirely and dont hit anyone, with a group I can usually manage 2-3. It is pretty annoying at first - with some practice and willingness to change how you target a little not an issue.

 

It does take some time though and if you just face-roll don't count on hitting multiples. If your on a team where everything is melting anyways not a deal (IMO anyways).

 

-edit- fix missing word

[Legree]

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE.

 

I don't think that is their job though.  Most melee sets only have one true AoE - invariably the one that the single target specialist Stalkers don't get.  Anything beyond that is a bonus.

 

I cant remember the number of times my characters have stood there swinging away at One dead/arrested MOB, while others are pounding on them.

 

I've done that often enough myself and what I take from that is it's a hard hitter and I shouldn't waste it on enemies with only a sliver of health left.

 

As a couple of other people have commented the cone powers are essentially single target attacks which - with positioning, timing and/or luck - sometimes hit multiple targets.  To widen the cone so that they effortlessly hit multiple targets every time, while not changing anything else about the power - yes, I'd call that power creep.

[Rylas]

The problem with melee cones in my opinion, is that for melee ATs, the most efficient way to use them usually means playing to the least efficient way for melee ATs to play.

 

For example, NPCs surrounding a brute tend to cluster 1–2 layers around the player. As soon as the player tries to jump outside of the group to line up a cone, NPCs will start moving around again making it difficult to line them up. If cones were wider and had shorter range, then at least it wouldn't be a struggle to hit more than 2 NPCs more reliably. You wouldn't even have to adjust damage numbers so long as you kept the area close to the same square footage.

[Jeuraud]

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE.

 

I don't think that is their job though.

 

If an AoE Cone's job is not to do AoE, then what is it's Job? Why should I be spending a power choice and slots on an AoE Cone that is not really for AoE?

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE.

I don't think that is their job though.

If an AoE Cone's job is not to do AoE, then what is it's Job? Why should I be spending a power choice and slots on an AoE Cone that is not really for AoE?

Well it depends on the cone. The melee cones with a large 180degree radius are clearly intended for AoE damage but the ones with narrow cones (19, 30 or 45 degrees) are more like single target attacks that can occasionally hit a second target. They generally have their damage balanced closer to a single target attack than an AoE attack.

[Jeuraud]

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE.

I don't think that is their job though.

If an AoE Cone's job is not to do AoE, then what is it's Job? Why should I be spending a power choice and slots on an AoE Cone that is not really for AoE?

 

Well it depends on the cone. The melee cones with a large 180degree radius are clearly intended for AoE damage but the ones with narrow cones (19, 30 or 45 degrees) are more like single target attacks that can occasionally hit a second target. They generally have their damage balanced closer to a single target attack than an AoE attack.

 

In the Scrapper set the only Melee Cone with a 180 was Axe's Pendulum, there are one each at 130 in Broadsword and Katana. Something to note is even at the larger arc they are still set to 5 max, just like every other short melee cone.

 

As for damage lets look at Dark.

 

            Smite                Shadow Maul

DPA      13.95                      7.2             

Act        .97                        3.07

Rech    6.00                      8.00

End      6.86                      8.53

 

So if SM is not made for AoE, then what is it made for, because it sure as hells does not compare to Smite for single target.

 

Until someone brings some facts to this argument, instead of opinion, I will continue to believe that an AoE Cone's job is to do AoE, just like in every other RPG I have played. And if AoE Cones are consistently not doing AoE then they are broken, and need fixing.

[Sunsette]

n.b. This is exactly why I suggested being precise with specific powers you wanted to see a buff. Easier to nail down arguments. Which AT is this from btw? Different ATs can have different versions of the powers.

[Legree]

As for damage lets look at Dark.

 

            Smite                Shadow Maul

DPA      13.95                      7.2             

Act        .97                        3.07

Rech    6.00                      8.00

End      6.86                      8.53

 

So if SM is not made for AoE, then what is it made for, because it sure as hells does not compare to Smite for single target.

 

No it doesn't compare.  It's better.

 

Smite does one hit of damage.  Shadow Maul does four.  I just tested this on a couple of random mobs and one activation of Smite was doing 2/3 of the damage of one activation of Shadow Maul against a single enemy.  Also for what it's worth I also managed to hit two targets more than once when fighting a group.

 

You asked for facts.  There's your facts.  Shadow Maul does more damage than Smite, and if you make the effort to line up your attacks you can double that damage (or more) by hitting multiple targets.

[Leogunner]

I'm not asking for a Buff to Cones, I'm asking for them to do their job, AoE.

I don't think that is their job though.

If an AoE Cone's job is not to do AoE, then what is it's Job? Why should I be spending a power choice and slots on an AoE Cone that is not really for AoE?

 

Well it depends on the cone. The melee cones with a large 180degree radius are clearly intended for AoE damage but the ones with narrow cones (19, 30 or 45 degrees) are more like single target attacks that can occasionally hit a second target. They generally have their damage balanced closer to a single target attack than an AoE attack.

 

In the Scrapper set the only Melee Cone with a 180 was Axe's Pendulum, there are one each at 130 in Broadsword and Katana. Something to note is even at the larger arc they are still set to 5 max, just like every other short melee cone.

 

As for damage lets look at Dark.

 

            Smite                Shadow Maul

DPA      13.95                      7.2             

Act        .97                        3.07

Rech    6.00                      8.00

End      6.86                      8.53

 

So if SM is not made for AoE, then what is it made for, because it sure as hells does not compare to Smite for single target.

 

Until someone brings some facts to this argument, instead of opinion, I will continue to believe that an AoE Cone's job is to do AoE, just like in every other RPG I have played. And if AoE Cones are consistently not doing AoE then they are broken, and need fixing.

 

Well, for Scrapper, a Crit Shadow Maul is quite painful because all the damage it triggers is applied at the start + it continues its normal damage over several tics.

 

Granted, the power itself is niche.  Usually min/max players don't take it but overall, not every power in the game is meant for min/max purposes.  Some are just cool or fun.