page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[Dispari]

22 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Maybe add inspirations to that?  Keep it at 40%, but let me pop inspirations and the henchmen get 40% of that (each!).  Basically inspirations on a MM work like team inspirations, just only for the henchmen.  (Which I don't think makes using inspirations on a MM overpowered.) Would make inspirations easier to use on a MM and also more intuitive for newer players.

 

It's a neat idea but you can just turn on team inspirations as drops and use them, which is what I do for all my MMs. If we're going for intuitive it'd be nice if the set bonuses were just something you could understand at a glance without needing to pull out a calculator. If we do want to do something inspiration-based and newbie-friendly for MMs, they could just have team inspirations on by default.

[FupDup]

On the topic of team insps, it'd be real nice if those could be combined like normal ones (same goes for duals and team duals). They currently cause a lot of inventory bloat. 

[Gobbledigook]

If MM's take so much setting up and managing and are to be slow and clunky then why should they not be far more effective?  or should we just play easier to manage and usually more effective AT's?

[Arbegla]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

If MM's take so much setting up and managing and are to be slow and clunky then why should they not be far more effective?  or should we just play easier to manage and usually more effective AT's?

 

MMs, in the right hands, are very effective. They just have a learning curve that is much higher than other ATs. And it used to be way worse to set up and manage. Anyone else remember the days of single target upgrades?

[Arbegla]

Has anyone done testing on how debuffs affect the T1s and T2s on test? With the purple patch no longer being a thing, debuffs, especially those like -res and -def should have less of an effect on the pets and allow for them to be more survivable when facing large amounts of debuffing enemies (think Longbow with the million sonic grenades they can throw, or Banished Pantheon with all of the -defense that is possible)

 

I know we're considering straight effective hit points of the T1, T2s and bodyguard mode, but won't the effective reduction in debuff potential also be a factor to consider when evaluating the even level change?

 

Also debuffs that the pets dish out (like -def in mercs and thugs) should be more effective against even level enemies right?

Edited 23 hours ago by Arbegla
added the fact that T1 and T2s have debuffs they can use too.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

14 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Anyone else remember the days of single target upgrades?

Yes!  And having to resummon and buff every time you zoned. UGH!

 

But please, let's refocus on the feedback for these changes and not reminisce or get sidetracked on things that could be.

[tjknight]

2 hours ago, Arbegla said:

MMs, in the right hands, are very effective. They just have a learning curve that is much higher than other ATs. And it used to be way worse to set up and manage. Anyone else remember the days of single target upgrades?

 

Yes it was terrible. 

 

So, some subjective feedback from my experience on the test server so far: I've been playing my Thugs/Empathy (full level 50 with Incarnates and set bonuses) and my Thugs/Dark MM (level 34 with basic IOs, no set bonuses or incarnates) on content that is challenging for them on live. I've noticed a significant improvement in their survivability and ability to complete content. My Thugs/Empathy character struggled on live with the Khalisti Wharf repeatables, with the pets dying frequently.

 

On the beta test, he can complete those repeatables with much less difficulty. He was also able to defeat Silver Mantis in the Black Scorpion arc, a mission that completely wiped this character on live. As this toon has no access to reliable debuffs outside of the pets. It feels like the level shift, plus set bonuses now affecting the pets, were contributing factors. I've had to heal the pets much less frequently the beta server than I do on live. My level 34 Thugs/Dark MM is effectively running the Doc Buzzsaw arc on the beta server, which is an arc I quit in frustration on live because the pets simply couldn't survive the buffed Vahzilok enemies. I know there are tweaks that need to be made and concerns raised by others. But overall, these changes feel good and I think will make MM's more viable in late game content. 

[tidge]

Doing a little more testing... and now that I see the blunt reduction in base ToHit rates for teh T1 and T2... I guess I'm keeping Tactics.

[JAMMan0000]

2 hours ago, tjknight said:

 

Yes it was terrible. 

 

So, some subjective feedback from my experience on the test server so far: I've been playing my Thugs/Empathy (full level 50 with Incarnates and set bonuses) and my Thugs/Dark MM (level 34 with basic IOs, no set bonuses or incarnates) on content that is challenging for them on live. I've noticed a significant improvement in their survivability and ability to complete content. My Thugs/Empathy character struggled on live with the Khalisti Wharf repeatables, with the pets dying frequently.

 

On the beta test, he can complete those repeatables with much less difficulty. He was also able to defeat Silver Mantis in the Black Scorpion arc, a mission that completely wiped this character on live. As this toon has no access to reliable debuffs outside of the pets. It feels like the level shift, plus set bonuses now affecting the pets, were contributing factors. I've had to heal the pets much less frequently the beta server than I do on live. My level 34 Thugs/Dark MM is effectively running the Doc Buzzsaw arc on the beta server, which is an arc I quit in frustration on live because the pets simply couldn't survive the buffed Vahzilok enemies. I know there are tweaks that need to be made and concerns raised by others. But overall, these changes feel good and I think will make MM's more viable in late game content. 

Thanks for the input. That is very interesting. Its opposite of what many have been experiencing. Not being critical of your feedback, just very curious why your experience has been so much different. Any gurus out there have any theories?

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

12 minutes ago, JAMMan0000 said:

Thanks for the input. That is very interesting. Its opposite of what many have been experiencing. Not being critical of your feedback, just very curious why your experience has been so much different. Any gurus out there have any theories?

 

What level critters was he fighting?

[Gobbledigook]

6 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

MMs, in the right hands, are very effective. They just have a learning curve that is much higher than other ATs. And it used to be way worse to set up and manage. Anyone else remember the days of single target upgrades?

Yes they are in certain scenarios. Much higher learning curve and no more effective and even less so than other AT's in certain scenarios.  I have really tried to like them but they are just so awkward to play, for me at least. I would like some actual improvements into how to manage the pets and not spend time resummoning and waiting for them to turn up and join the fight.

 

Maybe then i could endure playing them.

[csr]

1 hour ago, JAMMan0000 said:

Thanks for the input. That is very interesting. Its opposite of what many have been experiencing. Not being critical of your feedback, just very curious why your experience has been so much different. Any gurus out there have any theories?

 

Thugs did get buffed, with Resistance being added to both T1 and T2 pets.

 

Edit: Also, having Gang War recharge faster may add effective up time when you're in tough fights where the Posse members (Posse is not a term for an individual) may be dying fast.

Edited 16 hours ago by csr

[JAMMan0000]

You know, Im starting to think my experience with lower pet survivability had more to do with +5s now being in +4 mishes. I ran some +3 mishes on test (that now can include +4s) and pet survivability that seemed very comparable to +4 mishes on live. So it might just be that mish difficulty of +4s on test is just harder than +4s on live and the MMs are feeling that difficulty increase through pet survivability. If thats the case, I think Im ok with that because the mish difficulty increase will be shared with all ATs. And, honestly, a moderate across the board mish difficulty increase might not be a bad thing.

[gameboy1234]

On 11/12/2025 at 4:45 PM, mechahamham said:

For the most part, I feel like this is reasonable. In other games, if pets go down, it's a very big deal and you need to drop everything to get the pet back up ASAP.

 

CoH has a little of that, especially for MMs who spend their time in bodyguard mode. And I agree that 'zerg rush' tactics suck. They're not fun to play. They're not fun to watch. They're 'cheaty' in that they break the *intent* of the game mechanics if not the rules.

 

Just thinking out loud here, but I'm sure back on live MM pets had a much larger recharge time.  Like 1 minute for the tier one, 1.5 minutes for the tier two, and two minutes for the tier three.  If that prevents a "zerg rush" and allows us to have passive pet upgrades, I'd be all for it.  This was certainly a thing back on live, I remember having to break a few hot doors by exiting to allow pet powers to recharge.

 

This was in reply to Captain Powerhouse talking about allowing the pet upgrades to be passives:

 

On 11/12/2025 at 4:45 PM, mechahamham said:

There has also been resistance from multiple dev team members that keeping your henchmen alive should be one of the responsibilities of the MM. If they simply get summoned with all the upgrades, the cost of resummoning them becomes too trivial. This is not any one person's opinion, but unless multiple people in the dev team can be sold on a concession/middle ground, it's not likely to change anytime soon.

 

[Maelwys]

So I managed to get my Bot/Kin into RWZ this evening for a bunch of Pylon tests on both Live and Brainstorm.

The results may seem a little unusual, however I am PURPOSELY trying to benchmark the effects of Incarnate Ability procs on an endgame Lv50+1 MM build here (since I know that the devs were particularly concerned about the potential effects of the stacking of those procs on even-level MM pets)

Anyway, here's the setup and the various pylon times:


Build: Mastermind - Robotics - Kinetics (Bonfire).mbd
 

Setup: Level 50+1 Robotics/Kinetics Mastermind with ED-capped damage in all pets, and an Explosive Strike proc in Drones and Assault Bot.
They are intentionally *NOT* using a Damage-buffing Alpha Slot ability (T4 Agility Core Paragon instead) or a Soulbound proc.
Noteworthy Passive/Toggle Buffs: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface, Supremacy, Tactics (to cap Hit Rate vs +3s) +1.01% Damage Set Bonus (TEST only)


PYLON TIMES: (Note: each time is the average of 3 runs; except for the >33minute one on Test #6 when I got very very bored ran out of testing time)
 

Test #1: vs a Levelless Pylon (Vanguard Training Pylon "Blank level Dummy")

+ [LIVE=04:35] [TEST=08:54] - Pets (Baseline run - no active buffs other than +Recovery/+Endurance)

+ [LIVE=04:03] [TEST=05:25] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=02:41] [TEST=03:24] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.

Test #2: vs a -1 Pylon (Vanguard IDC "Level 50 Dummy")

+ [LIVE=03:36] [TEST=03:28] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=02:13] [TEST=02:05] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.

Test #3: vs a +0 Pylon (Vanguard IDC "Level 51 Dummy")

+ [LIVE=05:00] [TEST=07:36] - Pets (Baseline run - no active buffs other than +Recovery/+Endurance)

+ [LIVE=04:34] [TEST=04:29] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=02:44] [TEST=02:41] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.

Test #4: vs a +1 Pylon (Vanguard IDC "Level 52 Dummy")

+ [LIVE=06:24] [TEST=06:29] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=03:42] [TEST=03:29] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.

Test #5: vs a +2 Pylon (Vanguard IDC "Level 53 Dummy")

+ [LIVE=15:25] [TEST=09:42] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=05:58] [TEST=05:23] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.

Test #6: vs a +3 Pylon (Vanguard IDC "Level 54 Dummy")

+ [LIVE=N/A] [TEST=33:24] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment repeatedly activated on cooldown.

+ [LIVE=14:43] [TEST=08:55] - Pets with Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment plus Pulse Rifle Burst set to Autofire for -200% Regen Debuff.
 (NOTE: Pet damage output was insufficient to overcome pylon regeneration on Live without any active -Regen debuffs)

Observations:
(i) The Live version of the toon wins comfortably on all of the "levelless" pylon runs (as expected since the T1 and T2 pets are "even-level" vs it and aren't suffering any nerfs!)
(ii) The Live version of the toon is winning very comfortably on both the levelless and the even-level pylon "baseline" runs (whenever Hybrid isn't toggled on)
(iii) Whenever the Hybrid is being used on cooldown; the Test and Live versions of the toon are extremely close in terms of performance (I had a few runs where their positions flipped!) until they start fighting Lv53+ pylons and the Live version of the toon apparently starts having trouble overcoming the Pylon's passive regeneration rate.

This definitely suggests that if MMs are using a "75% chance of DOT" T4 interface ability there is a substantial drop in overall henchmen damage output on Test when fighting "levelless" foes like GMs; and a less-substantial-but-still-noticable drop in overall henchmen damage output when fighting even-level foes. However throwing Hybrid Ability procs into the mix seems to be able to make up some of the performance deficit vs levelless foes and effectively all of the performance deficit vs regular even-level foes... and versus higher-conning targets (somewhere between +2s and +3s) the Test version of the character will start pulling ahead of the Live version. (And since the devs are apparently intending the break-even point to be +2s for regular damage and +3s for proc damage... to my mind that all tracks rather nicely!)
 

Edited 14 hours ago by Maelwys

[Arbegla]

On 11/10/2025 at 3:19 PM, The Curator said:

40% of your Set Bonuses now applies to henchmen that are within range of Supremacy

 

This doesn't appear to be applying 'Recovery Rate' bonuses, unfortunately I don't have a print screen button (small keyboard) so I can't take screenshots. Can anyone else confirm that 'Recovery Rate' set bonuses are not transferring to the pets correctly?

[Thezanman]

48 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

This doesn't appear to be applying 'Recovery Rate' bonuses, unfortunately I don't have a print screen button (small keyboard) so I can't take screenshots. Can anyone else confirm that 'Recovery Rate' set bonuses are not transferring to the pets correctly?

Can you use windows key+shift+s to take a screenshot instead?

[Arbegla]

21 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

Can you use windows key+shift+s to take a screenshot instead?

That did the trick (mostly) You can tell by the two screenshots that I have a ton of recovery bonuses, but my assault bot (who is in range of Supremacy) is not receiving any bonuses to his recovery.
 

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

This doesn't appear to be applying 'Recovery Rate' bonuses, unfortunately I don't have a print screen button (small keyboard) so I can't take screenshots. Can anyone else confirm that 'Recovery Rate' set bonuses are not transferring to the pets correctly?

 

Saw your post on Discord and already fixed internally. Thanks for the report.

[Arbegla]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

Doing a little more testing... and now that I see the blunt reduction in base ToHit rates for teh T1 and T2... I guess I'm keeping Tactics.

 

Powerhouse posted a side by side comparison of 'Beta ToHit' vs 'Live ToHit' and even with the 'blunt' reduction in base tohit values, overall this change is better then before. It also only kicks in once you have 3 of the T1s and two of the T2s, so low levels shouldn't feel any different leveling up. 

[Catalyze]

Since it seems to me that All these MM changes are to facilitate players with Full Incarnates doing activities at +5 and above, I decided to level identical MM's on Live and Beta. This is to see what actually happens versus "should be no change" or "they will improve over Live at lower levels". MM's don't play the same for me at lower levels. I just ran identical content with 2 identical builds and the same difficulty level on both. Beta MM's got really  bad, really fast, and it wasn't close.

 

1. At level 2 a previous Mod/Dev was correct in both health pools being the same ... 105.  Hit is the same at 97% although the contributions are not the same. Resists are the same. I ran Mathew Habashy's arc on +1 X 2 and it was fine with both.

 

2. At level 6 the health drops on Beta by 17% from Live 128 to Beta 107.  Hit on Live is 96% and Beta 88% with Live being a level 5 pet and Beta being even level.  Resists are the same on both. I ran Twinshots arc on +1 X 2 and it got done with a touch more healing on Beta but nothing really standing out.

 

3. At level 15 the health drops by the same 17% as above with 185 Live and 155 Beta. Hit is 80% Beta (still 58% Base) and 89% Live.  Resists (including Ember Demons contributions) are up by 2% with a Resist SO in Beta pet training over Live.  Ember Demon gets nothing from his ally shielding so he sits at the same resist level as Level 2 or 6. I ran the Shauna arc in Kings Row on +1 X 2.  I should say, I attempted to run the arc on both Live and Beta. The Beta toon could not defeat Chernobog as a +1 Elite Boss. Not even close over the course of 4 tries. Live got it done on the first try, mostly. I fell over dead as Chernobog fell over dead and it completed.  I deleted both toons and remade them. On Live it's just a matter of double boxing with one of my fire farmers. On Beta, it's even faster....lol. 

 

4. At level 16, I tried the arc again on Live and Beta. I did this because I am playing Demons/Electric and Faraday Cage comes at 16 with the promise of across the board resistance buffing. Live got it done with all pets alive no inspirations used and frantic healing when it came off cooldown. Still at +1 X 2 difficulty. Beta with the exact same build took 4 tries with all pets dead on 3 of them. Chernobog would health chunk the T1 pets for half health a lot. The Ember Demon got his health chunked not as badly but was dead on the successful 4th attempt. Every failed attempt was with all pets dead.  A 6 second cooldown on Rejuvenating Circuit was too long at +1 X 2 on Beta to keep them alive 3 times.

 

So, what do I make of this? Leveling is worse with Beta changes. For the posters only caring about the End Game, carry on with your charts explaining why the End Game will shine at +3 and above with Full Incarnates. I will continue tomorrow with life at level 27 or so for the New Improved and Overly Compensated Mastermind on both Beta and Live and see what a new player will see in a month or so when all this falls over into Live.  

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, Catalyze said:

So, what do I make of this? Leveling is worse with Beta changes.

 

This is an excellent post, thank you. Could you test again with today's patch, please?

[Maxzero]

On 11/12/2025 at 2:15 PM, ScarySai said:

 

Problem is that it isn't that much of a marked improvement even in those situations, and for incarnate content they already get extra level shifts.

 

So it's just a sidegrade at best, it's weird.

 

MM henchmen being even con on itrials is fine but not in regular content. Since henchmen were already an even con in itrials does this mean these changes are nerf in this content?

[Maelwys]

  

21 hours ago, The Curator said:

BUILD 4 CHANGES:

Powers

• Masterminds
  • Henchmen HP modifiers have been reverted
  • Henchmen > Addressed an issue with the Heal Other modifier tables that was causing some heals to be slightly weaker
  • Beasts > Tame Beasts: Power should now accept resistance enhancements and sets (for reals this time)
  • Fixed a bug where Recovery Set Bonuses were not included in the henchmen set bonus sharing.

Looks promising, especially for any Beasts/ who have been struggling with their survivability. Thanks! 👍

[EDIT] - Here's an illustration of my Henchmen HP now on Live/Test:

  (was previously 480.99, so that's +27.0%)

  (was previously 678.34, so that's +18.5%)

 

FWIW +MaxHP Set Bonuses seem particularly nice for supplementing the T1 pets survivability (Since Set Bonus inheritance use the master's base values; the same value ends up getting added to each of the pets... so the T1s with the lowest HP gain the most proportional benefit!)

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Maelwys

[tjknight]

12 hours ago, JAMMan0000 said:

You know, Im starting to think my experience with lower pet survivability had more to do with +5s now being in +4 mishes. I ran some +3 mishes on test (that now can include +4s) and pet survivability that seemed very comparable to +4 mishes on live. So it might just be that mish difficulty of +4s on test is just harder than +4s on live and the MMs are feeling that difficulty increase through pet survivability. If thats the case, I think Im ok with that because the mish difficulty increase will be shared with all ATs. And, honestly, a moderate across the board mish difficulty increase might not be a bad thing.

 

I've been running +2 and +3 so h ave not been encountering +5 enemies. That may be the diffrence. Also Gang War is spawning at 50 (+1) on beta. While on live they are spawning at 48 (+1) ... and I have Gangwar near perma on the Empathy build. That's probably a contributing factor. 

Edited 4 hours ago by tjknight