page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

Powerhouse posted a side by side comparison of 'Beta ToHit' vs 'Live ToHit' and even with the 'blunt' reduction in base tohit values, overall this change is better then before. It also only kicks in once you have 3 of the T1s and two of the T2s, so low levels shouldn't feel any different leveling up. 

 

This "kicks in" at levels 12/22-> Incarnate, so forgive me if I think the argument "but better at levels 1-21"! is the among the most disingenuous arguments I've heard about game balance. For crying out loud, "beginner's luck" is in play for those levels, so it's not like there wasn't already something in play at low levels.

[Dispari]

9 hours ago, Arbegla said:

This doesn't appear to be applying 'Recovery Rate' bonuses, unfortunately I don't have a print screen button (small keyboard) so I can't take screenshots. Can anyone else confirm that 'Recovery Rate' set bonuses are not transferring to the pets correctly?

 

Oh yeah, I reported this one at one point but forgot about it. Recovery doesn't work but +maxEnd does.

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Oh yeah, I reported this one at one point but forgot about it. Recovery doesn't work but +maxEnd does.

It's supposedly meant to be working as of this morning's patch... but the in-game info still says nope.

[MM]
 

 

[PET]

[tidge]

Thanks to all that reported it. I spent some time looking at the henchmen attributes and noticed this. 

 

Is the "Recharge time bonus" at 0% intentional?

 

I'm glad to see that the HP limits for T1/T2 have been reverted. I'm still non-plussed about the reduction in base ToHit for those henchmen (for most of the games content)... "Even Level Shift" means practically nothing to me if the effective ToHit chance nullifies it (sorry, I'm not buying the "but better at +3!" rationale" ... I understand there are concerns, but I think those concerns are so narrow that more typical content and playstyles are being ignored).

 

If the set bonus inheritances were better, and FWIW this is not something I ever wanted/asked for, I might be tempted to add more base accuracy to the MMs via set bonuses. Accuracy is one of the easiest (and largest) set bonuses to build for. I didn't really expect to be reconsidering having to change my preferred enhancement sets because of a new issue/page/panel.

[FupDup]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

Is the "Recharge time bonus" at 0% intentional?

Henchmen are intentionally immune to +rech buffs because it would mess up their attack chains. 

It'd be nice if henchmen could get a different buff, like damage, in place of the "wasted" recharge. 

[Shin Magmus]

     I agree with the tweaks to the patches regarding HP.  I have 2 fairly optimized MMs, but I don't play them much and have no desire to make more because MMs face a laundry list of issues that no other AT has to.  The various AI shenanigans, clunky movement, slow speed, and inability to understand terrain/pathing means that MMs are categorically slower at moving through a map, and especially at STEALTHILY moving QUICKLY through a map to hit certain objectives while bypassing others, than *every other AT in the game.*  This immediately relegates MMs to F-tier below human-only Khelds and Sentinels on something as simple as mission 1 of a MLTF: where the MM is incapable of getting their pets to the web parts quickly and uh... alive.  The AT has so many weaknesses: that alone makes it okay (maybe even expected) for them to be strong in direct stationary combat.  But MMs have never been generally strong outside of extreme niche situations, and one of the biggest issues has always been how quickly T1 and T2 pets could die (no one-shot protection.)

 

     I strongly advise looking at further tweaks to the formulas to not hurt new MM players running +0 content, because that HP change was a gutpunch to these players and I'm glad it was reverted.  Their baseline performance really has no justification for being nerfed, please keep this in mind.  I was already working on respecs with tons of Max HP set bonuses just to keep my MMs playable.

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  Even with all the keybinds set up, when you use a "PetCom_All GoTo" keybind and command your army to move onto the spot near that boss, they genuinely sit there and think about it for a bit.  Then they try to run over, get stuck on terrain, get stuck on themselves, randomly doubleback on their path intermittently like drunkards, and eventually 4-5 of them get there but 1 is still stuck because who the fuck knows why.  Now you issue your attack command via another keybind but your pets are still partially staggered, and the stuck pets are using their weaker ranged attacks instead of their stronger melee attacks.  This is just the performance on mostly flat ground: add stairs to the equation and cut your DPS in half at least.  MM issues pervade every facet of actually playing the AT in a real mission, and these Pylon tests do not tell the whole story.

[Vinceq98]

59 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I agree with the tweaks to the patches regarding HP.  I have 2 fairly optimized MMs, but I don't play them much and have no desire to make more because MMs face a laundry list of issues that no other AT has to.  The various AI shenanigans, clunky movement, slow speed, and inability to understand terrain/pathing means that MMs are categorically slower at moving through a map, and especially at STEALTHILY moving QUICKLY through a map to hit certain objectives while bypassing others, than *every other AT in the game.*  This immediately relegates MMs to F-tier below human-only Khelds and Sentinels on something as simple as mission 1 of a MLTF: where the MM is incapable of getting their pets to the web parts quickly and uh... alive.  The AT has so many weaknesses: that alone makes it okay (maybe even expected) for them to be strong in direct stationary combat.  But MMs have never been generally strong outside of extreme niche situations, and one of the biggest issues has always been how quickly T1 and T2 pets could die (no one-shot protection.)

 

     I strongly advise looking at further tweaks to the formulas to not hurt new MM players running +0 content, because that HP change was a gutpunch to these players and I'm glad it was reverted.  Their baseline performance really has no justification for being nerfed, please keep this in mind.  I was already working on respecs with tons of Max HP set bonuses just to keep my MMs playable.

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  Even with all the keybinds set up, when you use a "PetCom_All GoTo" keybind and command your army to move onto the spot near that boss, they genuinely sit there and think about it for a bit.  Then they try to run over, get stuck on terrain, get stuck on themselves, randomly doubleback on their path intermittently like drunkards, and eventually 4-5 of them get there but 1 is still stuck because who the fuck knows why.  Now you issue your attack command via another keybind but your pets are still partially staggered, and the stuck pets are using their weaker ranged attacks instead of their stronger melee attacks.  This is just the performance on mostly flat ground: add stairs to the equation and cut your DPS in half at least.  MM issues pervade every facet of actually playing the AT in a real mission, and these Pylon tests do not tell the whole story.

The amount of times I have died because I was out of bodyguard range because for some reason demons are the slowest of slow pets is immeasurable. I always rage quit when that happens because otherwise I'm very tanky. I tried group flight but then a whole new issue comes up and the damn pets get stuck floating INSIDE a floor or a doorway. Now I just summon the mobs to me through the teleportation powers.

[...]

59 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  

 

This is the elephant in the room that has not been addressed.

 

Accuracy boosts, more hp, etc are all nice. But at the end of the day what MM really need is a TP-henchmen-to-me power on a meaningfully short cool down. 

 

Unless the dev team can find a way to make henchies keep up with the MM when the MM has a travel power on.

 

I suspect they can't though. Pathing and AI issues seem much more complex than a simple TP power. 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  

 

I deeply agree with this feel, although my own frustration (with MM gameplay) isn't rooted in the henchmen movement/pathing.

 

Attaboys to HC: The fast respawns, the global buffs, the useful slotting options for upgrades have all been GREAT!

 

Even though I play a MM almost every day, and have played a LOT of content with it (including non-BAF Incarnate Trials, FWIW) there is enough subtlety and variety of HOW I have to play MMs through different content that I'm unconvinced that there is a "one size fits most solution" to any of the different circumstances MMs "have trouble with"... because from my PoV most of the "trouble" is figuring out what the optimal approach is to the situation. Let's face it: players who gravitate to "same strategy, every time" or face-rolling keyboards don't want to invest extra effort into ALSO learning (more than one way) to play their MM.

 

I can believe that some fraction of players get frustrated with MMs and give up before level 22... but I doubt it was something like "henchmen missing attacks" that cracked the top ten list of hypothetical complaints. Henchmen need slots, and (especially at low levels) henchmen need support... and with power picks and slots at a premium below level 26, yeah... players gotta think about how to balance their choices (e.g. the player might just have to wait before getting Hasten/Kick/Tough/Weave)

 

I don't think players that PL to 50 are criminal, but the effect of skipped lessons (about slotting, about power picks) from lower level play are amplified for MMs in ways that don't really apply to most other ATs... so that it is easy to see criminally poorly played MM at 50+.

 

The reduction in base ToHit seems weirdly misplaced, as I'm not aware of any other AT that is getting hit with base reductions in ToHit (Accuracy changes in individual powers above level 22 would probably be more accurate) and if they were mentioned I didn't see any base decrease in the ToHit or Accuracy of Control/Dom/VEAT/Kheldian/Lore pets.

 

[Maelwys]

19 minutes ago, ... said:

I suspect they can't though. Pathing and AI issues seem much more complex than a simple TP power. 

I'm pretty sure they could theoretically give MMs a toggle with an only-affecting-henchmen Mag 100+ "reverse repel" effect; so that we can choose to vacuum all the little unruly smeggers up and then deposit them somewhere else after moving... (Perhaps even with a few animation tweaks? Robotics = Voltron Combine!)

[Dispari]

Fresh math number comparisons for my IOed MMs (the ninja one is a little sparse). None of these include buffs or powers from the secondary sets but does include Supremacy.
I did move some slotting where I could, like dropping +heal in Dark Empowerment, but some values may have slightly higher potential if I took the time to adjust to new options.

 

Necromancy (live):
Zombies: RES: 55% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 675; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Knights: RES: 62% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 903; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Lich: RES: 69% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 1132; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Necromancy (beta):
Zombies: RES: 58% (N/C), 56% (S), 55% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (R/F/C), 10% (all); HP: 699; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 17%

Knights: RES: 65% (N), 64% (C), 63% (S), 62% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 932; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 17%

Lich: RES: 72% (N), 71% (C), 70% (S), 69% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 1189; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 17%

 

---

 

Mercenaries (live):
Soldiers: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Spec Ops: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 35% (A), 23% (R), 16% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Commando: RES: 65% (S/L), 43% F/C/T, 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Mercenaries (beta):
Soldiers: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 607; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 16%

Spec Ops: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 36% (A), 26% (R), 19% (E/N), 17% (M), 16% (S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 800; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 16%

Commando: RES: 71% (S/L), 44% (F/C), 43% (T), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 993; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 16%

(Merc summon and buff animations are still pretty long compared to everyone else)
 

---

 

Ninjas (live):
Genin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 42% (A), 23% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 60% (A), 27% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 87% (F), 61% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 54% (A), 32% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Ninjas (beta):
Genin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 43% (A), 25% (R), 24% (M), 10% (all); HP: 614; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 61% (A), 29% (R), 28% (M), 10% (all); HP: 807; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 89% (F), 64% (S/L), 37% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 55% (A), 34% (R), 33% (M), 10% (all); HP: 1000; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

(Minor bug worth reporting, the pet you buff with your training abilities likes to stand there repeating the animation/sound on repeat until you move)

 

---

 

Demons (live):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 76% (S/L), 62% (T), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 81% (S/L), 80% (F), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Prince: RES: 70% (T), 67% (S/L), 65% (C), 62% (F), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Demons (beta):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 78% (S/L) 63% (C/T), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 598; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 13%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 86% (F), 83% (S/L), 63% (C), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 790; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 13%

Prince: RES: 71% (C), 70% (S/L/T), 68% (F), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 983; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 13%

Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

[Uun]

On 11/10/2025 at 5:19 PM, The Curator said:

40% of your Set Bonuses now applies to henchmen that are within range of Supremacy

Not sure this is possible, but could Accolades be included as well?

[tidge]

42 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

 

I'm slightly curious why 100% isn't on the table... 

 

Folks who chase +Recharge, no effect (for stated reasons)

Folks who chase +Accuracy, easy to do with purples... and AFAIK these are the "largest" enhancement set boosts and would immediately address concerns about Henchmen hitting whatever...

Folks who chase MaxEnd, EndDiscount, MaxHP, Regen, Recovery.... these boosts are small, and would actually make sense for Henchmen performance (see problems with blue bar burn in hecnhmen)

 

Resistance and Defense global boosts are often pretty small... and it's not that hard to cap Defense anyway, and while I've personally never worried much about henchmen resistances, the recent back-and-forth about "surviving" seemed to be focused more on getting hit (defense) not on taking damage anyway

 

Damage boosts.... here i can see an area for slight concern, but for many of the sets that offer bigger damage boosts:

• Getting multiple damage boosts from the same set means surrendering other useful boosts (like Recharge)
• Damage boosts aren't that common, and many of those are gated at 4+ slots... so "reasonable trade-off"