page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[The Curator]

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Super Strength

• Hand Clap
  • Recharge time reduced from 30 to 12
  • Endurance reduced from 13 to 11.856
  • Stun changed from Stack to Replace
  • This power should now accept damage enhancement and sets.
  • Power description now warns damage enhancement and sets don't work unless Unleashed Might is active.
• Hurl
  • This power is now a narrow cone with a 10 degree arc that can hit up to 5 targets in a straight line (10 on tankers due to Overcap)
  • Damage was kept the same 
• Rage
  • -Defense crash reduced from -20% to -10.0%
  • Added a -20% res debuff to the crash
  • NOTE: This change is meant to make the crash more equitable across all Armor pairings
• NEW Unleashed Might
  • New Toggle power, mutually exclusive from Rage
  • While this power is active, you will gain a Scale 2.0 buff to Damage and a scale 1.25 buff to ToHit
  • The following powers will also gain additional bonuses:
    • Jab:
      • Deals an additional scale 0.204 damage
    • Punch:
      • Deals an additional 0.3 scale damage
    • Haymaker:
      • Deals an additional 0.492 scale damage
    • Knockout Punch:
      • Deals an additional 0.4447 scale damage
    • Hurl:
      • Deals an additional scale 0.492 damage
    • Foot Stomp:
      • Deals an additional scale damage
    • Hand Clap:
      • Becomes a front facing cone with 180 degree arc and 15ft radius
      • Has a target cap of 5 (10 on tankers due to Overcap)
      • Knocks down instead of knock back
      • Loses the 50% chance for additional mag 1 stub
      • Deals scale 1.0899 damage
      • Base Accuracy is increased from 0.8 to 1.0

[Biff Pow]

Loving the Unleashed Might toggle.

 

Handclap info still says 30 second recharge on the Enhancement screen, and says 5.19 knock on the detailed info (which I assume should be lower now that it's knockdown?)

[ExeErdna]

All the changes are good, Unleashed Might really takes the build into a new space where it isn't so one note. So you're basically picking safety over a bit less upfront damage, especially on Brutes. Now I hope the ATO's to be slotted on Hand Clap since it switches from knockback to KD. Which would help more mid to end-game slotting. 

[Lazarillo]

Been checking the numbers in the CC so far, since sometimes the "scale" damage doesn't always put things in perspective.  Looks like the extra damage from Unleashed Might for most attacks is around an extra 30%, 15% in KO Blow and Foot Stomp (because those are a pretty oomphy anyway, so sensible) in a bit.  That seems, on paper, pretty evenly balanced with single-stacked Rage over time, so I'm optimistic.  Two kinda pre-questions (well, one pre-question, one pre-ask) as I get into actually trying a character out.  First:

5 hours ago, The Curator said:

Hand Clap

[...]

• This power should now accept damage enhancement and sets.

 

I am assuming that it's got (or at least is supposed to get) melee AoE sets?  That seems like the "logical" one to me but sometimes my sense of logic doesn't always jive.

 

Second, I don't wanna be too greedy because these changes do look nice, buuuuuuut...any chance of Jab getting a little more love too?  It still feels like it's kind of an underperformer, even compared to some of the pool power attacks (especially so since said pool attacks actually got buffed too in this patch, albeit only slightly).  It's still a tad disheartening that seems to still be getting relegated to "just skip it", doubly so since both its animations look so cool, compared to, say, Punch, where both have kinda bleh animations.

Okay, anyway, said my peace there, I won't bring it up again unless someone else raises the issue.

 

Let's see how this goes...

[ScarySai]

8 hours ago, The Curator said:

Rage

• -Defense crash reduced from -20% to -10.0%
• Added a -20% res debuff to the crash

 

 

 

20%? That basically destroys any set that isn't a hybrid or defense set. a resist set can't survive much with -20%.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

20%? That basically destroys any set that isn't a hybrid or defense set. a resist set can't survive much with -20%.

 

By game math that 20% resistance debuff is the same as a 10% defense debuff, so dropping the 20% defense debuff to a 10% defense, 20% resistance should result in roughly the same numbers.

 

And if you say "Well, a defense set just needs to go 20% over cap" the same works for resistance. You just need to go 20% over cap. If you get to 110% resistance you won't see a drop.

[Zahnee]

3 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

By game math that 20% resistance debuff is the same as a 10% defense debuff, so dropping the 20% defense debuff to a 10% defense, 20% resistance should result in roughly the same numbers.

 

And if you say "Well, a defense set just needs to go 20% over cap" the same works for resistance. You just need to go 20% over cap. If you get to 110% resistance you won't see a drop.

 

Is there a reference for this game math?

 

On first glance this seems like a massive attack against resistance sets on a power that no one asked for a change to. 
 

I can’t test this anytime soon, but I’m curious how this pans out on Tankers specifically, seeing as they don’t have Fury to carry their damage. 

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Is there a reference for this game math?

 

You can see it in the way Purple and Orange inspiration effects are balanced. And a few other things like the Pet Aura IOs.

 

In regular content outside of external buffs/debuffs, +45% Defense is the effective cap and +90% Damage Resistance is the effective cap.

 

(The fact that only two of the five armoured ATs has a damage resistance cap of +90%, and that it's generally easier to stack three Positional Defence types to +45% than eight Damage Resistance types is definitely something to bear in mind though)

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Maelwys

[Zahnee]

9 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

You can see it in the way Purple and Orange inspiration effects are balanced. And a few other things like the Pet Aura IOs.

 

In regular content outside of external buffs/debuffs, +45% Defense is the effective cap and +90% Damage Resistance is the effective cap.

 

(The fact that only two of the five armoured ATs has a damage resistance cap of +90%, and that it's generally easier to stack three Positional Defence types to +45% than eight Damage Resistance types is definitely something to bear in mind though)

 

Resistance is getting slammed by every single debuff that gets thrown at it since it’s not avoiding attacks. I don’t see 1% defense = 2% resistance as equal in real time. This is an instance where spreadsheet game balancing doesn’t exactly line up with actual gameplay. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I vaguely recall bringing up the unfairness of the rage crash only being a defense debuff back on live. Pretty sure I even requested exactly this, cut defense debuff in half, turn the other half into an equitable resistance debuff. Kinda funny seeing it happen.

Yes, resistance sets get hit more often but resistance inherently resists resistance debuffs. Unlike defense. They had to add DDR to the game for that. Regardless, that 20% defense debuff that rage currently has is a very good reason for not ever running an SS/SR brute because the debuff is tagged as Ignoring Resistance. And an SR user being knocked down to 25% defense from 45% is a dead SR user.

 

Now, everybody gets debuffed the same. Don't want the debuff, use the toggle.

[Maelwys]

33 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Resistance is getting slammed by every single debuff that gets thrown at it since it’s not avoiding attacks. I don’t see 1% defense = 2% resistance as equal in real time. This is an instance where spreadsheet game balancing doesn’t exactly line up with actual gameplay. 

 

And Defense without extremely substantial amounts of additional Defense Debuffs Resistance is very prone to cascading failure from -Def debuffs, whereas Damage Resistance by itself inherently resists -Res debuffs.

And Defense is prone to lucky/unlucky streaks (the anti-one-shot code is almost as buggy as the streakbreaker).

 

Lots of caveats exist. Like Power Boost effects.

 

However the fact remains that one of the factors in powers balancing is 2 Res = 1 Def.

[ScarySai]

7 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

By game math that 20% resistance debuff is the same as a 10% defense debuff, so dropping the 20% defense debuff to a 10% defense, 20% resistance should result in roughly the same numbers.

 

It's more nuanced than that in practice, which is why that approach to design is generally frowned upon. 

 

Should be scrapped. Stronger sets don't have downsides even half as bad, "parity" is just a poor justification for a nerf.

Edited 8 hours ago by ScarySai

[FupDup]

Rage is balanced around the drawbacks of the crash and is only allowed to be as strong as it is due to that. Resistance armors being able to ignore that drawback made them a must-pick pairing with SS and made defense pairings pretty bad most of the time. Making it more equitable across the different armor types makes sense.

 

The specific values chosen for the crash, however, can and should definitely be scrutinized. They can probably be softened up a bit. 

[gameboy1234]

7 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Should be scrapped.

 

I actually agree with this.  The original idea behind Rage was that it was like the Hulk, once in a while you get really mad and are able to do some extra damage.  The huge crash at the end was supposed to be like the Hulk coming out of his mad.  Gameplay, I think these big boost, big downside -type powers are just not fun, and probably should be reworked to have less of a boost and less of a bonus too.

 

Personally, the Rage on test right now is fine, but I think we're just used to it.  I don't know yet if the toggle is actually a replacement or not, just tried it once so far.

 

[ScarySai]

@FupDup

Barely. It's like soul drain, ss isn't anything special with its base values.

 

And things like hurl still being an over 2s cast time certainly don't help the case.

 

Like -defense hurts resist sets too. It just doesn't cripple them. The phrasing implies this is a compromise for Defense sets, but is actually worse for everyone. -20% res loss is a lot.

Edited 8 hours ago by ScarySai

[Americas Angel]

28 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Like -defense hurts resist sets too. It just doesn't cripple them. The phrasing implies this is a compromise for Defense sets, but is actually worse for everyone. -20% res loss is a lot.

 

Yup. My EA brute now both loses its def softcap as well as getting hit with a 20% -res debuff. (Whilst also not having perma DDR due to nerfed Overload!) Hardly "equitable". Just a straight up nerf to performance.

 

And my Regen Tank that doesn't care about -def debuffs is now a lot squishier.

 

Probably going to just reroll the characters as Street Justice or MA.

 

[Lazarillo]

Okay, so, I've been futzing around with the new goodies on an SS/Regen I made and it seems pretty grand to me.  Not gonna unseat Claws Scrappin' as my favorite way to melee, but it's a fine, non-stop brawl, with some punching, a little more punching, and then just a bit of punching, as a treat, and is gonna be something I look at a lot more for Brutes if it goes through.  The wide-cone juggle with a bit of bonus damage on Hand Clap is solid, too.  

[FupDup]

I think we should try nudging down the crash to around 7.5/15 to make it a little more manageable. 10/20 is pretty big, but 5/10 might be a too low? 

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Americas Angel said:

 

Yup. My EA brute now both loses its def softcap as well as getting hit with a 20% -res debuff. (Whilst also not having perma DDR due to nerfed Overload!) Hardly "equitable". Just a straight up nerf to performance.

 

And my Regen Tank that doesn't care about -def debuffs is now a lot squishier.

 

Probably going to just reroll the characters as Street Justice or MA.

 

It feels like all involved parties just forgot how resistance scaling works. Just 10% is the difference between no-selling an alpha and losing 3/4s of your health in the opening volley at higher levels of it. A character with low resists already is going to get obliterated in one shot.

 

The difference between a resist capped brute and a resist capped scrapper is only about 10%. Look at how vast that difference is, then add another 10 to that.

 

It's the whole reason why scrappers and stalkers are generally not recommended to take resist based sets.

Edited 5 hours ago by ScarySai

[Steampunkette]

18 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It feels like all involved parties just forgot how resistance scaling works. Just 10% is the difference between no-selling an alpha and losing 3/4s of your health in the opening volley at higher levels of it. A character with low resists already is going to get obliterated in one shot.

 

The difference between a resist capped brute and a resist capped scrapper is only about 10%. Look at how vast that difference is, then add another 10 to that.

 

It's the whole reason why scrappers and stalkers are generally not recommended to take resist based sets.

Well...

 

That and the hit point difference. And the oft baked in Absorbs, Heals, +MaxHP, and Regen. All of which massively favor a character with a larger HP Pool.

 

But. Y'know. Sure. It's -just- the lower numbers on Resistance that makes the difference.

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Yes, resistance sets get hit more often but resistance inherently resists resistance debuffs. Unlike defense.

 

As if most defense sets do not have some level of DDR. Do resistance sets get some level of status protection as a general rule?

[Erratic1]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

And Defense without extremely substantial amounts of additional Defense Debuffs Resistance is very prone to cascading failure from -Def debuffs, whereas Damage Resistance by itself inherently resists -Res debuffs.

And Defense is prone to lucky/unlucky streaks (the anti-one-shot code is almost as buggy as the streakbreaker).

 

Meanwhile the resistance set user has  been sapped, detogglex, and is dead....or slowed to inability to fight or escape and whittled to death....or blinded as oppose to having the attack miss.

[Zahnee]

Spreadsheet values of X% Def = X% Res are garbage, and most of us understand the significant value difference between the two stats. Defense may cascade against -Def, but Resistance can cascade against literally everything else (-recov, -regen, -tohit, -end, -rech, slows). In actual gameplay those debuffs are significant.

 

What’s the actual issue with Rage in its current state to begin with?

 

It has a massive debuff, which no other melee set has, and it’s still not top of the leaderboards.
 

To make Rage palatable we as players have found solutions around it, such as using resistance based sets to avoid the -defense and placing procs in attacks to get around the -damage. EVEN WITH cheesing these 2 negative functions, Super Strength doesn’t become god-tier, but it becomes palatable. 
 

If any lessons are to be learned from how this set has been built to overcome Rage crash, it’s that the crash does not matter, so why not just remove it altogether? That would allow Defense based armors to not feel left out and also give alternatives to full blown proc builds. 
 

Even with Rage crash dropped I would put money that it still doesn’t become the #1 performing set. 
 

These changes simply funnel people into using Unleashed Might, otherwise you get a more significant crash from the new Rage as well as being locked out from using the new functionality of Hand Clap. If you want to eliminate Rage, then do it, but hiding behind these changes to disincentivize the power is counter productive.

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, FupDup said:

Rage is balanced around the drawbacks of the crash and is only allowed to be as strong as it is due to that. Resistance armors being able to ignore that drawback made them a must-pick pairing with SS and made defense pairings pretty bad most of the time. Making it more equitable across the different armor types makes sense.

 

So if your defensive set provides an absorption shield, does it need to take a too?

 

Part of the joy of combining primary and secondary sets are the synergies to be had. Apparently we only need one primary and one secondary with a dozen special effects  choices...to be fair and balanced.

 

 

[Maelwys]

27 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

These changes simply funnel people into using Unleashed Might, otherwise you get a more significant crash from the new Rage as well as being locked out from using the new functionality of Hand Clap. If you want to eliminate Rage, then do it, but hiding behind these changes to disincentivize the power is counter productive.

 

The Devs can't just bin Rage without triggering a Nerdrage apocalypse, and neither do they seem to want to address the root problem that causes runaway performance issues with it (its buff really shouldn't stack with itself).

 

They can however make it the less optimal choice.

 

Unleashed Might is actually pretty well balanced. It's also currently the better choice for Brutes pretty much always; and at least competitive for Tankers assuming you're running Assault Core Hybrid (and it's always better whenever you've got a Kin).

So assuming you can make up the +ToHit deficit, yeah, time to switch. Especially if you've been propping up your single target attack chain with Punch or Boxing whilst Haymaker, Cross Punch and KO Blow are recharging.