page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[skoryy]

Honestly, Unleashed Might is where I might actually roll myself an Inv/SS, since there's now one less clicky to worry about and more toys to play with.

[Zahnee]

7 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

The Devs can't just bin Rage without triggering a Nerdrage apocalypse, and neither do they seem to want to address the root problem that causes runaway performance issues with it (its buff really shouldn't stack with itself).

 

They can however make it the less optimal choice.

 

Unleashed Might is actually pretty well balanced. It's also currently the better choice for Brutes pretty much always; and at least competitive for Tankers assuming you're running Assault Core Hybrid (and it's always better whenever you've got a Kin).

So assuming you can make up the +ToHit deficit, yeah, time to switch. Especially if you've been propping up your single target attack chain with Punch or Boxing whilst Haymaker, Cross Punch and KO Blow are recharging.

Unleashed Might looks like it only exists to spit in the face of people who liked Rage as it was. 
 

A toggle that alters the power of everything else in the set just sounds like it should be passively inserted into the set. Just rework Super Strength from the ground up. This looks like a lazy “I hate Rage” fix.

 

I mainly solo, maybe some PUGs here and there due to life, so I couldn’t care less about a Kin and what it does. Ston’s tests on Brutes look good with SS v2 but that’s on Brutes with Fury. Super Strength was the single secondary on Tankers that could justify things other than Assault and Musculature and now here comes Homecoming homogenization to bring SS back in line with its incarnate choices. 

[Steampunkette]

Double Stacking Rage is still going to be vastly superior when Solo or on teams that aren't maximally damage buffed. Hell, even if you -can't- double-stack Rage, you'll still do more damage when solo or on teams that aren't maximally damage buffed compared to Unleashed Might.

 

(100x1.8=180, (100+30)x1.2=156)

 

On teams that -are- maximally damage buffed, Unleashed Might will become the better option.

 

Meanwhile the horrifying nerf to avoiding the survival penalty by only picking Resistance sets can be offset by support. Just, like, ANY SUPPORT character. Straight up /Thermal Corruptor negates the entire 20% Resistance penalty, effortlessly while also giving you heals and damage boost.

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:27 PM by Steampunkette

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Zahnee said:

A toggle that alters the power of everything else in the set just sounds like it should be passively inserted into the set. Just rework Super Strength from the ground up. This looks like a lazy “I hate Rage” fix.

 

You've got a really weird idea of what constitutes "Lazy".

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

 

The Devs can't just bin Rage without triggering a Nerdrage apocalypse, and neither do they seem to want to address the root problem that causes runaway performance issues with it (its buff really shouldn't stack with itself).

 

They can however make it the less optimal choice.

 

Unleashed Might is actually pretty well balanced. It's also currently the better choice for Brutes pretty much always; and at least competitive for Tankers assuming you're running Assault Core Hybrid (and it's always better whenever you've got a Kin).

So assuming you can make up the +ToHit deficit, yeah, time to switch. Especially if you've been propping up your single target attack chain with Punch or Boxing whilst Haymaker, Cross Punch and KO Blow are recharging.

 

I think this is right.  This seems to me to be the Instant Healing/Reactive Regen situation.   Unleashed Might with the changes it makes to the set, especially Hand Clap seems to be just better IMO.  Smooths out the overpowered peaks and removes the crippling valleys.

 

FEEDBACK:

 

I think there needs to be a better in-game explanation for the changes that Unleashed Might makes, especially to Hand Clap.  It basically makes it a different and MUCH better power. It feels like Sonic Clap and makes the AoE of the set more tolerable at lower levels.  Heck I just wish I didn't have to wait until 18/24 for it.  

[Sovera]

The Tanker is, IMO, the least affected by this.

 

Depending on the armor I often have to take slots out to not go past 90%, and see *so* many people posting builds where they ignore the ATO and have over 100% resistances.

 

Simply build to 110% and the nerf to resistances is gone. Build to 55% defenses and it's gone.

 

On a Brutes, the new buffs make this easier than before though they will lag behind due to not having the ATO providing a hefty 15%-21% to all resistances (but Brutes are the oens who should least care about SS since Fury and Rage don't mingle well). They are 2-3% behind Tankers otherwise, or end with the same numbers. My Brute and Tanker Stone Armor in Open Beta both end with 45% without Weave and 50% with. And that's with heavily procced attacks so all attacks can push that further, like slotting five Blistering Cold which by itself would make the S/L drop gone on that build.

 

Every Rage drop also is *not* a death sentence. Most of the time it is inconsequential. Some of the times it drops at a bad moment and we're surrounded, but not girding our loins and stand there while taking damage fixes most problems. Or using an inspiration, or dropping Barrier.

 

 

I do agree SS is not that much of a monster to have to deal with this. On the other hand double stack Rage is. And when the devs tried to 'nerf' it to not stack the forums went in flames with dozen pages of teeth gnashing and pitchforks until they noped the fuck out of nopesville. 

 

And *that* would have been the best fix because until it happens the set can't be buffed meaningfully because it all revolves around whatever they do will be magnified by double stacks of succulent Rage.

 

Unleashed Might is elegant. Now they can buff that power alone in the future, or during this open beta, and buff the whole set without having to deal with the headache of the magnifying effect of Rage stacks.

[Sovera]

23 minutes ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

I think this is right.  This seems to me to be the Instant Healing/Reactive Regen situation.   Unleashed Might with the changes it makes to the set, especially Hand Clap seems to be just better IMO.  Smooths out the overpowered peaks and removes the crippling valleys.

 

FEEDBACK:

 

I think there needs to be a better in-game explanation for the changes that Unleashed Might makes, especially to Hand Clap.  It basically makes it a different and MUCH better power. It feels like Sonic Clap and makes the AoE of the set more tolerable at lower levels.  Heck I just wish I didn't have to wait until 18/24 for it.  

 

I've mentioned this before. The pacing of the sets could use work. Do we *really* need 4 ST attacks by level 8? Sets like Fire Melee have to wait until 16 for their first AoE (fine if teaming, but screwing up soloers). SS *still* has to wait to 18 for UM so Handclap turns into an AoE, another set with 4 ST attacks by level 8.

 

Swap KO Blow to 18, give Rage at 8.

[Major_Decoy]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I do agree SS is not that much of a monster to have to deal with this. On the other hand double stack Rage is. And when the devs tried to 'nerf' it to not stack the forums went in flames with dozen pages of teeth gnashing and pitchforks until they noped the fuck out of nopesville. 

 

That wasn't it. The previous idea had been "Rage only crashes if it's double stacked. If you only ever use one stack at a time there's no crash. And we'll even give a glowing green ring to tell you when it's safe to rage again"

[Maelwys]

43 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Double Stacking Rage is still going to be vastly superior when Solo or on teams that aren't maximally damage buffed. Hell, even if you -can't- double-stack Rage, you'll still do more damage when solo or on teams that aren't maximally damage buffed compared to Unleashed Might.

 

(100x1.8=180, (100+30)x1.2=156)

 

On teams that -are- maximally damage buffed, Unleashed Might will become the better option.

Rage is a straight +70% Damage buff on Tankers.
With typical ED-capped damage aspect that's 100% (base) + 95.5% (Slotting) + 70% (Rage) = 265.5% total.

Unleashed Might is only a +17.5% Damage buff on Tankers; but it also increases the base damage of most SuperStrength attacks.
+ Haymaker goes from 86.64 to 112.63 base damage (+30%)
+ KO Blow goes from 188.08 to 211.57 base damage  (+12.5%)
+ Foot Stomp goes from 75.02 to 84.4 base damage (+12.5%)
etc. etc.
Even if we take the lowest common denominator there for illustration (Footstomp's +12.5%)...
With typical ED-capped damage aspect that's 1.125x(100% (base) + 95.5% (slotting) + 17.5% (Unleashed Might)) = 239.625% total.

So on a Tanker 1 stack of Rage versus Unleashed Might actually ends up looking like 265.5% versus 239.625% with no other +Damage or Incarnate buffs in play.
That's a bit lower certainly; but it's balanced out by the fact that Unleashed Might has NO CRASH.

And if we also factor in common Incarnate buffs then it can get very close indeed:
1x Rage: 100% (base) + 125.5% (Slotting + T4 Musculature) + 70% (Rage) + 10% (Assault Hybrid passive) + 90% (Assault Core Hybrid Active) = 395.5% total.
UM: 1.125x(100% (base) + 125.5% (Slotting + T4 Musculature) + 17.5% (Unleashed Might) + 10% (Assault Hybrid passive) + 90% (Assault Core Hybrid Active)) = 385.875% total.
That's a comparative loss in DPS of only -2.4% (on a solo Tanker regardless of their Defensive powerset, Inspiration usage and Lore Pet choices).



So if you're used to double-stacking Rage?
Sure; running Unleashed Might is absolutely a chonky DPS loss until you hit the damage cap.

...but it's still a fine replacement for single-stacked Rage; even on solo Tankers. And it performs better with team buffs.

...and its introduction makes Super Strength performance far easier for the devs to balance; potentially allowing it to be made available to other melee ATs like Scrappers.

...and it also causes Hand Clap to start actually dealing damage; opening up better attack chain possibilities than before.
(57.58 base damage; with an Arcanatime of 1.452s.. which is better DPA than baseline Cross Punch and almost 3 times wider and it procs rather decently...)


So yeah, colour me happy with the changes.
Although I'd still prefer Unleashed Might to grant a scale 1.5 ToHit buff instead of scale 1.25. Meh.

[Zahnee]

Even with double stacked Rage Super Strength has not been top of the leaderboards, so all this does is funnel the damage of Super Strength to mediocre levels of single stack Rage. Super Strength v2 is still very middle of the road, so these changes accomplished exactly nothing except phasing out Rage, which deserves a reasonable explanation beyond “just because the devs.”

 

I say this is a lazy way to revamp a powerset but maybe a better way to describe it is a passive aggressive approach to countering the way some of us decide to play the game through the massive resistance debuff on Rage crash and tying the full functionality of Hand Clap to Unleashed Potential.

[ScarySai]

It's just easy to say rage is too strong on paper. In the same way fury is on paper, too strong.

 

Reality disagrees with that assessment, but we're not dealing with facts at this point. The rage change basically just kills it while promoting the new one in it's place.

Edited Saturday at 10:42 PM by ScarySai

[Major_Decoy]

20 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

It's just easy to say rage is too strong on paper. In the same way fury is on paper, too strong.

 

Reality disagrees with that assessment, but we're not dealing with facts at this point. The rage change basically just kills it while promoting the new one in it's place.

So how much more have you been being defeated with the changes?

[Zahnee]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

It's just easy to say rage is too strong on paper. In the same way fury is on paper, too strong.

 

Reality disagrees with that assessment, but we're not dealing with facts at this point. The rage change basically just kills it while promoting the new one in it's place.

 

Yeah I’m not sure what facts led us to this point. I now have to alter how I play because “reasons”

 

It’s honestly just easier to abandon SS altogether and play another set than it is to squeeze blood from a stone. Once they make up their minds it’s over. 

[drbuzzard]

Somehow I would guess that those screaming the loudest are those double stacking rage and running resistance sets so the crash is merely a pause. As demonstrated above by Maelwys, Unleashed Might is roughly comparable to single stack rage. 

 

Personally I run a elec/SS tank and some chunk of the time I end up with double stack rage. It's not really intentional, but i haven't taken the time to tune my recharge to avoid it, and I can't really complain about the damage. I do, however, eagerly look forward to unleashed might and will respec into it immediately when this goes live. I will need to respec in a fairly drastic way since rage means you leverage all the best options outside of super strength since rage will usually make other things better options. Unleashed Might will fix a lot of these issues. 

 

The premise that this is a lazy effort is so daft as to defy description. I lose IQ points every time I read that. 

[ScarySai]

27 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Somehow I would guess that those screaming the loudest are those double stacking rage and running resistance sets so the crash is merely a pause. As demonstrated above by Maelwys, Unleashed Might is roughly comparable to single stack rage. 

 

The new crash hurts non-resist sets harder than resist sets. Because that's how resist scaling works in this game.

 

New rage is a net buff for brute from what I can see, but that doesn't change the fact the change to the original is unjustified and unneccesary.

[drbuzzard]

4 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

The new crash hurts non-resist sets harder than resist sets. Because that's how resist scaling works in this game.

 

This I do not get. The defense drop has been reduced. 

• -Defense crash reduced from -20% to -10.0%

Only resistance sets have seen a negative change. 

[Zahnee]

33 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Somehow I would guess that those screaming the loudest are those double stacking rage and running resistance sets so the crash is merely a pause. As demonstrated above by Maelwys, Unleashed Might is roughly comparable to single stack rage. 

 

Personally I run a elec/SS tank and some chunk of the time I end up with double stack rage. It's not really intentional, but i haven't taken the time to tune my recharge to avoid it, and I can't really complain about the damage. I do, however, eagerly look forward to unleashed might and will respec into it immediately when this goes live. I will need to respec in a fairly drastic way since rage means you leverage all the best options outside of super strength since rage will usually make other things better options. Unleashed Might will fix a lot of these issues. 

 

The premise that this is a lazy effort is so daft as to defy description. I lose IQ points every time I read that. 

Two can play this game. I lose IQ every time I read people say they only single stack Rage. You’re missing out on the full potential of an already mildly performing set. 
 

The argument that Unleashed Potential is fine because it’s comparable to single stack Rage is a net nerf to anyone who gave a damn about optimization. 

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Only resistance sets have seen a negative change. 

 

-def doesn't only negatively impact defense sets, and -res doesn't only negatively impact resist sets. -20% resist + -10 def is far worse of a penalty than the previous one, in fact.

[drbuzzard]

4 minutes ago, Zahnee said:

Two can play this game. I lose IQ every time I read people say they only single stack Rage. You’re missing out on the full potential of an already mildly performing set. 
 

The argument that Unleashed Potential is fine because it’s comparable to single stack Rage is a net nerf to anyone who gave a damn about optimization. 

 

You might read more carefully if you wish to play the game. I do run some portion of double stack rage, I could certainly up that portion if I wanted to. This isn't string theory.  I know what it can do. I also dislike the extra crashes which is why I don't. I remember the glory days of broken as hell titan weapons. I tried it, and found that yes it was impressive, but I found it too annoying to play. That alt merely sits. 

 

But if, as you say, super strength is a mildly performing set even with double stacked rage, and you 'give a damn about optimization', why aren't you playing one of those not mildly performing sets?

Edited Sunday at 01:13 AM by drbuzzard

[FupDup]

5 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

This I do not get. The defense drop has been reduced. 

• -Defense crash reduced from -20% to -10.0%

Only resistance sets have seen a negative change. 

What he's saying is that defense sets still get hit eventually, and they of course have lower resists, which means that any hits that get through are gonna be nasty. 

[drbuzzard]

1 minute ago, FupDup said:

What he's saying is that defense sets still get hit eventually, and they of course have lower resists, which means that any hits that get through are gonna be nasty. 

 

That is more clear. Thanks. 

 

[Biff Pow]

This is a focused feedback thread. Has anyone actually playtested the new Rage and felt the crash is much harsher?

[drbuzzard]

2 minutes ago, Biff Pow said:

This is a focused feedback thread. Has anyone actually playtested the new Rage and felt the crash is much harsher?

 

Sorry, only playtested the Unleashed Might option since it interested me far more. 

[ScarySai]

Yep.

 

Aside from rage, hurl needs a cast time buff. Over two seconds is ridiculous.

[ExeErdna]

From a bit more playing these changes really help Tanker slotting. Since they now have 5 extra slots since they no longer NEED TO invest in a whole Gaussian set. Double Rage is amazing yet getting clipped by some of these tougher mobs when it crashed sucks since it only takes one little critical failure and even the tanker is entering the floor club. It's the Safety Choice, it's the early-mid game "don't wanna invest heavy into yet" choice. I'll say again, it NEEDS the ATO slotting into Hand Clap