page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[Major_Decoy]

For Comparison, the Super Reflexes. The build I threw together had 61, 56, 56. Let's assume that by taking just a little bit more effort I can get 60% defense to all by sacrificing a little melee slotting.

 

95% defense  goes to 90% during the -20% defense debuff on Homecoming servers. You go from taking 5% of the damage to 10% of the damage, that is a 100% damage increase, 15% of the time, you are taking 15% more damage over the course of a fight.

 

95 defense goes to 95% during the -10% defense debuff on Open Beta, 0% resists goes to -20% resists, you go from taking 5% of the damage to taking 6% of the damage. That is a 20% damage increase, 15% of the time, you are taking about 3% more damage over the course of the fight.

 

For a hypothetical, "just barely capped" defenses and no resists.

 

95% defense goes to 75% during the -20% defense debuff on Homecoming servers. You go from taking 5% of the damage to 25% of the damage, that is a 400% damage increase, 15% of the time, you are taking 60% more damage over the entire fight.

 

95% defense goes to 85% during the -10% defense debuff on Open Beta. 0% resistance goes to -20% resistance, you go from taking 5% of the damage to 18% of the damage which is about a 260% increase in damage, which is about 39% more damage over the entire fight.

 

Okay, Hypothetical "Just barely capped defenses, barely capped resistances"

 

95% defense goes to 75% during the -20% defense debuff on Homecoming servers. You go from taking .5% of the damage to 2.5% of the damage, that is a 400% damage increase, 15% of the time, you are taking 6% more damage over the entire fight.

 

95% defense goes to 85% during the -10% defense debuff on Open Beta. 95% resistance goes to 75%, you go from taking .5% of the damage to 6.25% of the damage, that is a 2400% increase, 15% of the time, you are taking 360% more damage over the entire fight. 

 

Hypothetical "How is this a tank?" 0% resists, 50% defense

 

50% defense goes to 30%, you go from taking 50% of the damage to 70% of the damage, that is a 40% increase in damage taken, 15% of the time, you are taking about 6% more damage over the entire fight.

 

50% defense goes to 40%, 0% resists go to -20%, you go from taking 50% of the damage to 72%, that is a 44% increase in damage taken, 15% of the time you are taking about 6.6% more damage over the entire fight.

Edited yesterday at 06:33 AM by Major_Decoy

[flakoff]

So poor invulnerability will suffer not only with defence crash but resist as well lol

I don't get why fun is being ruined, objective I know but it's mainly a pve non paid for game. You could just take the crash away and not let it be stackable if its that important? 

Or just remove rage and buff the actual attacks so it feels like super strength not average strength!

[skoryy]

12 hours ago, Psyonico said:

You keep saying that SS is a mid tier set.  Ston's testing shows it as #1 for brutes on live.

 

Shh, you're not supposed to give the game away! SS is a mid-tier set! There is no war in Ba Sing Se!

[PyroBeetle]

On 12/6/2025 at 8:07 PM, Zahnee said:

Two can play this game. I lose IQ every time I read people say they only single stack Rage. You’re missing out on the full potential of an already mildly performing set. 
 

The argument that Unleashed Potential is fine because it’s comparable to single stack Rage is a net nerf to anyone who gave a damn about optimization. 

Nothing is stopping you from continuing to double stack rage other than the fact that Rage now equitably effects resistance armors.

 

As I posted in another thread, the purpose of Rage in all practical reasons in the modern meta was to facilitate proc monster builds...hell did you even run anything other than procs in your attacks (see 6 proc cross punch and 6 proc dominate that were staples of a SS Tank) if you could reliably double stack rage.

 

The changes being have all been a steady assault on proc damage builds, by design. Trying to justify anger without saying what you are really mad about is just disingenuous.

[skoryy]

5 minutes ago, PyroBeetle said:

As I posted in another thread, the purpose of Rage in all practical reasons in the modern meta was to facilitate proc monster builds...hell did you even run anything other than procs in your attacks (see 6 proc cross punch and 6 proc dominate that were staples of a SS Tank) if you could reliably double stack rage.

 

Yeah, i was coming to the same thought this morning. Double-stacked Rage gives you a stronger buff than slotting for damage and with no ED to boot, so now you can use those slots for procs and really go to town.

Edited yesterday at 02:58 PM by skoryy

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, flakoff said:

So poor invulnerability will suffer not only with defence crash but resist as well lol

I don't get why fun is being ruined, objective I know but it's mainly a pve non paid for game. You could just take the crash away and not let it be stackable if its that important? 

Or just remove rage and buff the actual attacks so it feels like super strength not average strength!

 

Umm, did you miss the Unleashed Might part where they did buff the attacks? 

 

It's pretty clear that double stack rage is the issue. A while back they tried to get rid of it and the caterwauling was immense. This time they are adding a bit more balanced penalty to it, and then buffing the set if you opt away from it as people have requested since the commercial server days. People can keep their pretty much out of line double stack rage, but they won't get extra toys. Those toys are are people who don't try as hard to break the game. 

 

I'd suggest people also understand that this is still beta. If the penalty adjustment is too far out of line, they can adjust it. That's what beta is for. The number is not carved in granite. Personally I don't think it unreasonable. 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

Yeah, i was coming to the same thought this morning. Double-stacked Rage gives you a stronger buff than slotting for damage and with no ED to boot, so now you can use those slots for procs and really go to town.

It's the +ToHit as much as the +Damage.
If you're getting +40% (2x Base for Tankers) ToHit "for free" you don't need to bother with any Accuracy aspect in your attacks; and procs that need a hit check also benefit.

IMO the major difference between Rage setups and Unleashed Might setups is going to be that the former will be better if you're using multiple procbombed off-set attacks like Cross Punch, Gloom and Dark Obliteration... and the latter will be better if you're sticking within the powerset (because of its interactions with Hand Clap) and/or if you're at the damage cap (so partying with a Kinetics, or Active AE Farming).  Rage's "Crash" is supposed to be the limiting factor; but damage procs bypass that.

Brute Fury also muddies the break-even line a lot; so even with off-powerset attacks and no Fulcrum Shift they probably won't be hugely dissimilar. But I'm sure someone'll test it!
 

Edited yesterday at 04:09 PM by Maelwys

[PyroBeetle]

44 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

It's the +ToHit as much as the +Damage.

IMO the major difference between Rage setups and Unleashed Might setups is going to be that the former will be better if you're using multiple procbombed off-set attacks like Cross Punch, Gloom and Dark Obliteration... and the latter will be better if you're sticking within the powerset (because of its interactions with Hand Clap) and/or if you're at the damage cap (so partying with a Kinetics, or Active AE Farming).  Rage's "Crash" is supposed to be the limiting factor; but damage procs bypass that.

It is 100 percent about the +to hit, and I think all the whining about the change is more about the fact that using the statistically less effective Unleashed Might will make having to do all the fussing with double stack rage not worth it. Coupled with the fact that it is making regular slotting attacks, especially for a brute, come close to the damage that running a full proc build, just less appealing. Add on you get a new toy, or at least a refurbished one, in Hand Clap for using Unleashed Might, and holy Jesus, the world is ending.

 

The proc bomb meta is a thing, and yes a Rad/SS Tank used to be able to effectively solo in 4 Star Content. I dont think that was ever anybodies intent for CoH, and for sure it is not the dev teams intent, because they have been saying for years the want to do something about procs.

 

Full disclosure, I was running a Regen/SS tank proc bombed out the wazoo, and I find SS/Willpower Brute that I was testing the changes on, just more fun to play, if not quite at the peak effectiveness. It was just less fussy.

[Myrmidon]

Only five pages in less than twenty-four hours? Either the population has dwindled tremendously or Unleashed Might is beyond good on Brutes…

 

 

 

Rage penalty parity to let it survive for the Rage Junkies and Unleashed Might for everyone else. Aside from any adjustments, it looks like everyone wins if this goes live.🏆

[Major_Decoy]

So, I feel like as "changing the rage crash to give parity between defense and resistance sets" I do feel as though this is accomplished by this change.\

 

Whether or not the rage crash should be as harsh as it is lies beyond my experience. I don't really use rage.

 

I do feel that this rage crash is still better than 10 seconds of magnitude 16 stun.

[ScarySai]

19 hours ago, Psyonico said:

You keep saying that SS is a mid tier set.  Ston's testing shows it as #1 for brutes on live.

 

Rage inflates the numbers, and Foot stomp + knockout blow with all the procs sprinkled in are good enough to shred clear times. Hence why it does good on the clear test, while performing horribly on the test where DPS actually matters. SS has the same problem dark melee has, except SS has better aoe coverage and procability: Other sets scaled up to it's damage % will trash it. Martial with +200 damage buffs on it will trash super strength. Also, due to having zero damage/acc slotting in the brute powers, rage actually is a big swing factor.

 

when benchmarking the sets, you have to keep this in mind. It's like with khelds, the whole changeling thing seems OP until you realize that a damage capped AT with animation cancels firing off 4 attacks a second loaded with procs isn't even capable of beating a mid tier scrapper with similar stats.

 

Trapdoor was also fairly robot and -tohit loaded, so, lol.

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by ScarySai

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, PyroBeetle said:

Nothing is stopping you from continuing to double stack rage other than the fact that Rage now equitably effects resistance armors.

 

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Please feel free to tell us what you think it means. Numerically speaking, the change to rage does now equally affect both types of armors.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Please feel free to tell us what you think it means. Numerically speaking, the change to rage does now equally affect both types of armors.

 

You could read the thread where I and others have spelled it out already.

 

The claim of some sort or equality being reached relies only on looking at damage, but status effects exist in the game and there has been ABSOLUTELY NO WHINING BY THOSE CRYING HERE ABOUT EQUALITY AT LONG LAST BEING ACHIEVED about how resistance sets get hit with status effects that do not get delivered against defense sets due to not applying when an attack misses. 

 

You know, I think status effects need to be divided up into those that can be resisted and those which can be dodged, and if you don't have enough of either to mitigate then too bad, so sad. Let's call for equality between armor sets. Confuse should be based on your Psionic resistance, and if all you have is dodging...well, you don't dodge mental attacks. I am sure it will be possible to assign half the currently completely dodgeable attacks that defense protects against which resistance based character just get hit by and have to suffer through to check specific resistancs like being sapped checks Energy resistance. 

 

It is only equitable after all.

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You could read the thread where I and others have spelled it out already.

 

The claim of some sort or equality being reached relies only on looking at damage, but status effects exist in the game and there has been ABSOLUTELY NO WHINING BY THOSE CRYING HERE ABOUT EQUALITY AT LONG LAST BEING ACHIEVED about how resistance sets get hit with status effects that do not get delivered against defense sets due to not applying when an attack misses. 

 

You know, I think status effects need to be divided up into those that can be resisted and those which can be dodged, and if you don't have enough of either to mitigate then too bad, so sad. Let's call for equality between armor sets. Confuse should be based on your Psionic resistance, and if all you have is dodging...well, you don't dodge mental attacks. I am sure it will be possible to assign half the currently completely dodgeable attacks that defense protects against which resistance based character just get hit by and have to suffer through to check specific resistancs like being sapped checks Energy resistance. 

 

It is only equitable after all.

 

 

But they lowered the amount of defense de buff, so that means you’re getting hit with fewer status effects not more. Your complaint makes no sense.

[Major_Decoy]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You could read the thread where I and others have spelled it out already.

 

The claim of some sort or equality being reached relies only on looking at damage, but status effects exist in the game and there has been ABSOLUTELY NO WHINING BY THOSE CRYING HERE ABOUT EQUALITY AT LONG LAST BEING ACHIEVED about how resistance sets get hit with status effects that do not get delivered against defense sets due to not applying when an attack misses. 

 

You know, I think status effects need to be divided up into those that can be resisted and those which can be dodged, and if you don't have enough of either to mitigate then too bad, so sad. Let's call for equality between armor sets. Confuse should be based on your Psionic resistance, and if all you have is dodging...well, you don't dodge mental attacks. I am sure it will be possible to assign half the currently completely dodgeable attacks that defense protects against which resistance based character just get hit by and have to suffer through to check specific resistancs like being sapped checks Energy resistance. 

 

It is only equitable after all.

 

 

 

That is not an issue with rage, that is an issue with defense and resistance as a whole. It is entirely irrational to expect a change to Rage to address a systemic issue that effects people who are not playing Super Strength.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

That is not an issue with rage, that is an issue with defense and resistance as a whole. It is entirely irrational to expect a change to Rage to address a systemic issue that effects people who are not playing Super Strength.

 

Context matters. The current difference is a minor benefit to resistance sets and yet some are going on like aggrieved as millionaires complaining that the poor Food Stamps while ignoring all the tax breaks and deferred taxation they get that the poor could only dream of, except here it is defense afficanados complaining that for once they do not come out on top.

 

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But they lowered the amount of defense de buff, so that means you’re getting hit with fewer status effects not more. Your complaint makes no sense.

 

I am pretty sure you are confused here.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I am pretty sure you are confused here.

Very likely, if you want to clarify without all the histrionics maybe I’ll get it.

[Erratic1]

10 hours ago, flakoff said:

So poor invulnerability will suffer not only with defence crash but resist as well lol

I don't get why fun is being ruined, objective I know but it's mainly a pve non paid for game. You could just take the crash away and not let it be stackable if its that important? 

Or just remove rage and buff the actual attacks so it feels like super strength not average strength!

 

Yes, Invulnerability and Bio are both going to get whacked by this supposed, "equitable" dealing.

 

Well, I am sure that someone will come along to explain how this is "equitable". 🙄

[Erratic1]

Testing at level 20 SS/SR Brute, running as I usually do at that level without enhancements, and making use of Unleashed Might. 

 

Hand Clap is enough to make me seriously consider dropping Cross Punch, which has been my filler, AoE attack when using Super Strength to this point. A total joy taking down a group of 3 orange Tsoo and not losing half my health. Two red warriors were worth about half my health and maybe 60% of endurance. 

 

Enjoyable so far.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

well, you don't dodge mental attacks

 

Or autohit attacks which don't bother resistance based characters any more than anything else that hits them.

 

Also, sure seems the devs seem to be adding some resistance to certain status affects in these overhauls. Seems the two might be related.

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Also worth pointing out that that testing is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of date.

Ston's been back on the Discord recently; and this post (30mins old at the time of writing) is I believe his most recent publicly shared dataset:

 

[BrandX]

Is Unleashed Might a way to port SS to Scrappers?

[Wavicle]

Just now, BrandX said:

Is Unleashed Might a way to port SS to Scrappers?

We’re guessing yes, but we don’t have any actual confirmation of any kind.