Leadership

[Dresdenus]

Hey All! Hope I’m posting this in an OK spot. I’m building a tank character and I want him to take powers from the Leadership PP. My question is what priority should I take each power? I’m not looking for specific builds, and this is a role playing character so I’m skipping some “musts” powers from other pools like Hasten. Also, are there any real skippable powers in Leadership that don’t do much for the team? Thanks for the help!

[Xaeon]

Uhhh...everyone everywhere (except purpled out warshades who are always at the damage cap) likes assault for more damage and tactics to miss less. Then peel back and grab manoeuvres.

[TheOtherTed]

Tough call.  If you're running a RP character, what's "skippable" or not depends on your interpretation of each power.  On that basis, I personally would skip Maneuvers in favor of Vengeance, for a couple of reasons.  First, while Vengeance is situational (i.e., it can only be used after a teammate falls), it has a more ready and dramatic RP interpretation - "We have to press on, for Bob!" or "Bob's death will not be in vain!"  Second, Vengeance is the only Leadership power where the numbers are pretty good for all archetypes (melee types get the shaft for all other Leadership powers).

 

I had a Defender on live who had Vengeance.  On the one hand, I barely used it.  On the other hand, the few times I did, at least one person on the team would immediately respond with "awesome" or "cool."  People may "criticize" taking such a situational ability, but people will also applaud when the situation occurs.

 

BTW, you may have already seen this, but there's a nice breakdown of Leadership numbers by archetype here:

https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Leadership#Archetype_Differences

[Redlynne]

One of these years, someone is going to tease out the effects of Victory Rush for us ...

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Id have to say maneuvers as you can slot an lotg in it, if your going no hasten trying to get 70% global through set bonuses which isnt too hard at 50 with purple sets is still basically perma hasten in the pre ED sense because back then that is what perma hasten gave, nowdays to get perma hasten you already exceed hastens global benefit enough as to overshadow hasten. Fact is if you a build with lots of toggles hasten is far less a must then say a blaster with tons of attacks, or regen with a lot of clicks in their defense 2ndary.

 

Then Id say tactics because the perception bonus isnt nearly as shitty as the primary aspect of it on non defenders, so a tank using it is still helping people reach perception cap which can be handy especially when dealing with arachnos widows etc.

 

Then Id say vengeances and rush of victory are both useful. rush of victory at low lvls can help alot with endurance, and vengeance well hell especially if youra  tank who depends on support like healing etc can in that case be ready to go veng if their support falls.

 

I actually use it on a blaster who tends to outlast everything including tanks quite frequently, thus when someone else inevitably falls trying to keep up with my blaster, my blaster then goes veng mode and is a nightmare for any mob. And its taken very much as an RP thing as I run my SG, see my midnighters as my children to be guided and protected, and to harm one of them is to incur a rage that only a venged blaster can deal out.

[Clave Dark 5]

Here's another vote for Vengeance.  I ended up taking it on my Corr even though it maybe isn't quite thematic for the character, partly because I've never had it before.  I picked it up quite late in her build, thinking "OK, well, once in awhile this might be fun."  I've used it a lot, let me tell you!  Getting up to 50 and running around doing stuff set for insane-o difficulty levels means that actually I've seen a number of teammates get defeated.

[mousestalker]

Recall Friend + Vengeance + Howling Twilight + Twilight Grasp makes for a pretty neat chain. It also makes for a pretty picture.

[Konru]

Leadership itself is a weird set in that the effects are mostly small, but stack with your teammate's Leadership (and other) powers easily.  So a whole team running Leadership can see some significant results.

 

Of the first powers, I think Maneuvers is probably the better of the two if you have to make a choice.  The defense bonus is bigger than it appears if you keep in mind it only takes 45% to cap an enemy's to-hit (not counting +to-hit powers or -def attacks).  And while Maneuvers itself isn't going to cap anybody's defense, having 4 or 8 people running it significantly helps.  Also, it accepts Defense IO sets, so you can get a few nifty special effects if you want.

 

Assault is very popular, but not as useful as one might think.  It only accepts Recharge and Endurance Reduction enhancements.  So putting slots into it is a waste.  But that does make it a good choice if you need the next level's enhancement slots to further improve one or two of your earlier powers.  It's +damage adds to the enhancement value instead of being a true multiplier.  So if you have 84% damage buff from having two IOs, for example, then with one Assault it becomes 94%, two assaults 104% (approx, since some archetypes are better or worse at buffing powers).  It's really small unless you have a full team running Assault.

 

Tactics may be somewhere between useless and priceless depending on what you're doing.  That catch is that the default to-hit an even level opponent is 75%.  A SO accuracy will push this beyond the to-hit cap.  So at this level, tactics is a waste of endurance.  The catch is, fighting above your level significantly drops your base accuracy, down to 39% at +4, or 30% at +5.  Since tactics adds to accuracy before the multiplier kicks in, each person running tactics on the team will allow the team to keep that max accuracy at higher levels.  So it becomes something essential to have for the "hard mode" crowd.

 

Vengeance and Victory Rush I just haven't had much time to play with.  Vengeance gives some wicked buffs, but requires a teammate to be defeated before you can activate it, which is something you really should be avoiding when possible.  Victory Rush is mostly good to quickly get endurance for the next fight if your team doesn't have time (or doesn't want to take the time) to properly rest.  But the long cooldown means you can't use it all the time unless you set a rotation with other teammates with the power.

 

I would consider the most skippabe to be Vengeance.  On the opposite end, Tactics is almost a must-have, and Maneuvers is probably the best (if less popular) way to unlock it.  If you can afford it, having a set of Maneuvers, Assault, and Tactics, and forming a Supergroup with other leadership minded individuals is a great idea.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

My general philosophy is similar to Konru's but with some differences:

 

Maneuver's is always better than Assault for entry. It gives Defense which is always useful to stack on a Team so it's the most bang for the buck.

 

Assault is generally a filler power. I'll take it if I've got room but he overall effect isn't that great so it's a case of I'll take it if I have room. In general I take it on characters who don't need Tactics.

 

Tactics is very binary, it's either brilliant or useless. In general I think it's worth having at least one To Hit and Perception buffing power on most characters so my general rule of thumb is to take Tactics if I don't already have a power like that in my primary/secondary/epic sets. There are some exceptions (such as Earth Control) where defense debuffs and a kismet IO are good enough but in general it's worth considering tactics.

 

Vengeance I like because it can take a LotG Recharge IO. So basically I view it as a passive 7.5% Recharge power that can occasionally provide a buff if someone dies.

 

Victory Rush I don't really care for. The uptime is low and there's plenty of other ways to deal with endurance management.

 

So in general my priority order for Leadership powers is:

Maneuvers

Tactics or Assault

Vengeance

Assault (if I didn't take it earlier)

[Myrmidon]

If you’re building Defense, then Maneuvers is the best option for you to start with. It may be a small bonus, however, stacking bonuses is what gets you to Defense soft-cap (and beyond if you find it necessary). You also give the bonus from Maneuvers to your entire team.

 

From an RP perspective, think of it as you helping to either take the hits for your team or using your reflexes to interpose for them.

[Redlynne]

From an RP perspective, think of it as you helping to either take the hits for your team or using your reflexes to interpose for them.

 

I prefer to headcanon it as being that my mere presence is enough to improve everyone's teamwork/coordination enough to help give everyone around me that little bit extra situational awareness that it becomes slightly harder to injure any of us (within aura radius).  Maybe not so much "leadership" and more a matter of "synchronicity" instead.

 

Or if you prefer ... Better Fight Choreography ...  ^_~

[Myrmidon]

From an RP perspective, think of it as you helping to either take the hits for your team or using your reflexes to interpose for them.

 

I prefer to headcanon it as being that my mere presence is enough to improve everyone's teamwork/coordination enough to help give everyone around me that little bit extra situational awareness that it becomes slightly harder to injure any of us (within aura radius).  Maybe not so much "leadership" and more a matter of "synchronicity" instead.

 

Or if you prefer ... Better Fight Choreography ...  ^_~

 

Nice.

 

 

It’s mastery of Magics for me.

[Zolgar]

Maneuvers: Easily the best power in the pool. It's a great Luck of the Gambler mule, and can help any character get to softcapped defense, useful in teams and solo. Almost no one doesn't benefit from a team mate having Maneuvers. That said, if you're not building for defense, or you're a highly defense based set already? Maneuvers can sometimes be wasted on soloing, outside of being a proc mule (but there are better defense proc mules, depending on your build)

 

Assault: Super situational. If you solo a lot, Assault is kind of a waste of endurance, ranging from about 10% to 18% (for defenders), it offers less of a damage boost than a small red. If you have a power to spare, but not slots to spare it can be a decent addition because it can't benefit from anything but end redux, so the base slot that comes with it is enough. Now, if you're running in full teams that stay tight all the time? It's suddenly much stronger, because it's adding to everyone's damage.

 

Tactics: Unpopular opinion time, Tactics is over rated. In the current 'meta', most ever build out there slots enough accuracy to have very little issue hitting +4 foes once you hit 50, especially once you also factor in how easy it is to get 50+1 from your Alpha slot. Tactics does serve a few purposes though, I will admit. 1) The perception boost makes it super useful if you're facing foes with Blind effects, such as Arachnos. 2) If you're sidekicking a lot, Tactics is a great power if the lowbies will stay close, because they probably don't have the degree of accuracy slotting the higher level folks do, plus the foes are 1 effective level higher than to the non-SK'd members of the party. 3) (until they change things) Tactics is a great tool for anyone looking to get perma-instasnipe. 4) If you're basing you build off SOs but you still want to hit +4s, Tactics helps.

 

Vengeance: You didn't like my opinion of Tactics? Let's go for even less popular. Vengeance is bad as anything but a Luck of the Gambler mule. If you take Vengeance, you are benefiting from your team mates dying... so in a good team, Vengeance sits there doing nothing... in a bad team, could a power that DOESN'T rely on someone dying be a better help? Also, so many people are so quick to pop a self-rez, and support characters are fast to get their downed companions back in to the fight that you have to be fast on the use most of the time. Seriously, the only time I will ever take this power is for concept, I think it's garbage. (Yes, the benefit it offers when someone dies IS nice, I won't deny that. I just don't like anything that makes me want my team mates to die. >.>)

 

Victory Rush: I have no personal experience here. I have not made a character with this power yet. I will say I rarely see it used, and from what I have seen on it.. it seems like in standard content it offers the most benefit when you no longer need it. If you're playing at 50+ most of the time, enough people are likely to have Ageless Destiny that the team probably won't have Endurance issues anyways.

[DSorrow]

I agree with most points Zolgar made. Maneuvers > Tactics > Assault >> Vengeance >> Victory Rush, in my opinion. Tactics is maybe slightly more useful than he gives credit for as I'd add 5) enemies with significant +Def/-ToHit to the list (Carnies, Rikti drones, Banished Pantheon, etc.), as those can drop you from 95% hit chance even if you do have a bunch of +Acc bonuses going on.

 

As for Victory Rush, I tried that on my Fire/Time Corruptor and found it incredibly lackluster. The buff is pretty much meaningless used on anything lower rank than a boss, and when you most need it in drawn out AV fights, you can't activate it until the fight is over. You also can't modify its recharge value, so it has a lot of downtime. In the lower levels where Endurance is more of an issue, I find myself often in smaller teams that are not running x8 so we don't necessarily run into bosses at all which makes Victory Rush almost completely useless. In the higher levels when x8 is the standard, people already have a bunch of IOs, better slotting in general and ultimately access to stuff like Ageless which blow VR out of the water.  1/5 wouldn't spend a power pick on it again.

[Jon]

+1 for Maneuvers > Tactics > Assault >> Vengeance >> Victory Rush.

 

Sometimes I'll take Vengeance instead of Assault for the extra LotG slot.

[Zolgar]

I agree with most points Zolgar made. Maneuvers > Tactics > Assault >> Vengeance >> Victory Rush, in my opinion. Tactics is maybe slightly more useful than he gives credit for as I'd add 5) enemies with significant +Def/-ToHit to the list (Carnies, Rikti drones, Banished Pantheon, etc.), as those can drop you from 95% hit chance even if you do have a bunch of +Acc bonuses going on.

 

As for Victory Rush, I tried that on my Fire/Time Corruptor and found it incredibly lackluster. The buff is pretty much meaningless used on anything lower rank than a boss, and when you most need it in drawn out AV fights, you can't activate it until the fight is over. You also can't modify its recharge value, so it has a lot of downtime. In the lower levels where Endurance is more of an issue, I find myself often in smaller teams that are not running x8 so we don't necessarily run into bosses at all which makes Victory Rush almost completely useless. In the higher levels when x8 is the standard, people already have a bunch of IOs, better slotting in general and ultimately access to stuff like Ageless which blow VR out of the water.  1/5 wouldn't spend a power pick on it again.

 

I mean, I just went down the list of powers, didn't order them in 'best to worst'. I agree with the assessment that puts Tactics above Assault.

 

If nothing else, Tactics can get a Gaussian's proc tossed in to it, and a couple times a minute you get more damage on top of the increased accuracy and perception. :)

[Machariel]

Manuevers w/LoTG, Tactics + Gaussian's (if I don't have a build up power), Vengeance w/LoTG is my general go to.  I like the extra tohit and the Leadership pool is great because it gets 2 LoTG mules attached to pretty decent powers.  I guess if you have +tohit from somewhere else then I'd take Assault, and if I'm not taking both Maneuvers and Vengeance I'm probably not taking Leadership at all.  That's just my preference though :)

[MunkiLord]

Vengeance: You didn't like my opinion of Tactics? Let's go for even less popular. Vengeance is bad as anything but a Luck of the Gambler mule. If you take Vengeance, you are benefiting from your team mates dying... so in a good team, Vengeance sits there doing nothing... in a bad team, could a power that DOESN'T rely on someone dying be a better help? Also, so many people are so quick to pop a self-rez, and support characters are fast to get their downed companions back in to the fight that you have to be fast on the use most of the time. Seriously, the only time I will ever take this power is for concept, I think it's garbage. (Yes, the benefit it offers when someone dies IS nice, I won't deny that. I just don't like anything that makes me want my team mates to die. >.>)

 

Everything you said here is true and I agree. But I volunteer to die multiple times in a mission if someone wants to use Vengeance. Debt badges build character.

[Vanden]

Tactics: Unpopular opinion time, Tactics is over rated. In the current 'meta', most ever build out there slots enough accuracy to have very little issue hitting +4 foes once you hit 50, especially once you also factor in how easy it is to get 50+1 from your Alpha slot.

 

I just don't think this is true. Your base chance to hit a +4 enemy is 39%, you need more than the ED cap accuracy to make that 95%. Most sets give around 60-70% accuracy enhancement when six-slotted. You can get more accuracy from set bonuses, but nobody actually builds for that, they pick it up incidentally, and it's perfectly possible to have very few accuracy set bonuses in a build. Tactics is also great for Lore pets, which always spawn -1 to you, and can't be slotted for accuracy unless you take Nerve or Vigor Alphas.

[PaxArcana]

Tactics: [...]

Case 5: you ever, ever, expect to team with people who have pets.  Especially Masterminds.

[Robotech_Master]

I think Vengeance is actually a pretty nice power pick, for several reasons.

[*]The LotG mule ability.

[*]Doesn't need any slots, so you can distribute more slots to other powers.

[*]Well, duh, you don't want teammates to die. Guess what? They will die. And sometimes when they die, it makes the team weak enough that tough enemies can overcome them. (Especially if it's, like, the only Tanker who just went down.) A Vengeance buff can help everyone else stay alive long enough until that deader's back on their feet.

Yeah, sometimes people self-rez faster than you can use it. But those times they don't, it can be worth having. And if you ask people beforehand not to rez or self-rez until you can venge, it can help with that.

 

It's also useful to have the Resuscitator temp power from the P2W store, so you can rez people yourself when you're done.

[Zolgar]

Tactics: Unpopular opinion time, Tactics is over rated. In the current 'meta', most ever build out there slots enough accuracy to have very little issue hitting +4 foes once you hit 50, especially once you also factor in how easy it is to get 50+1 from your Alpha slot.

 

I just don't think this is true. Your base chance to hit a +4 enemy is 39%, you need more than the ED cap accuracy to make that 95%. Most sets give around 60-70% accuracy enhancement when six-slotted. You can get more accuracy from set bonuses, but nobody actually builds for that, they pick it up incidentally, and it's perfectly possible to have very few accuracy set bonuses in a build. Tactics is also great for Lore pets, which always spawn -1 to you, and can't be slotted for accuracy unless you take Nerve or Vigor Alphas.

 

My scrapper sits at 1.45x accuracy global, plus another 1.6x to 1.9x in individual powers.

 

The lowest that 39% is going to net me is an 80% chance to hit- which doesn't count that she never faces +4s due to being 51 effectively.

[Vanden]

Tactics: Unpopular opinion time, Tactics is over rated. In the current 'meta', most ever build out there slots enough accuracy to have very little issue hitting +4 foes once you hit 50, especially once you also factor in how easy it is to get 50+1 from your Alpha slot.

 

I just don't think this is true. Your base chance to hit a +4 enemy is 39%, you need more than the ED cap accuracy to make that 95%. Most sets give around 60-70% accuracy enhancement when six-slotted. You can get more accuracy from set bonuses, but nobody actually builds for that, they pick it up incidentally, and it's perfectly possible to have very few accuracy set bonuses in a build. Tactics is also great for Lore pets, which always spawn -1 to you, and can't be slotted for accuracy unless you take Nerve or Vigor Alphas.

 

My scrapper sits at 1.45x accuracy global, plus another 1.6x to 1.9x in individual powers.

 

The lowest that 39% is going to net me is an 80% chance to hit- which doesn't count that she never faces +4s due to being 51 effectively.

 

Even against +3s you have only a 48% chance to hit at base; that requires a 98% accuracy boost to hit 95% chance to hit. And there are enemies with defense, enemies with -ToHit, enemies with level shifts of their own; plenty of reasons ToHit buffs remain useful.

[Seroster01]

Did they ever fix Double Vengeance?  The whole shebang is only really effective in organized/pre-planned teams, but at the the time I quit playing you could get 2 stacks of Vengeance by having 2 people target the dead guy, Q the Vengeance cast, and then have a 3rd party member use Teleport Team mate or w/e it's called.  Ideally you'd also have a res for the dead guy, but a wakey works too.  Apparently you used to be able to do it with the whole team, but they limited it to 2 stacks last I was playing.

 

It was pretty useful when utilized properly.  Gets a lot of potential use when a group is doing hard-ish high level content with low-level Sidekicks.  It was also very useful as a pre-buff for hard AV fights, just have someone die before  the fight on purpose & bam, free defense, to-hit, and damage... but this was back before most the Incarnate powers we have now were all there, so it's probably a waste to worry about most of the time.

 

Still, the buffs from it are pretty solid & IIRC are relatively long-lasting.  Something to keep in mind.

[THEDarkTyger]

  First, while Vengeance is situational (i.e., it can only be used after a teammate falls), it has a more ready and dramatic RP interpretation - "We have to press on, for Bob!" or "Bob's death will not be in vain!"